Did they ever check to see how recently the window was broken?
There has been a lot of discussion about the broken window in the basement, particularly surrounding why JR didn't tell police about it when he saw it earlier in the morning. While I, personally, find that strange, I just recently thought of a scenario to explain that behavior. They are both intertwined into a theory that implicates JR in the crime, so if you don't agree with that, you may not want to read further. But assuming that you can accept that, or at least hypothesize about that, please read on, and let me know what you think of this possible scenario...
In trying to reconstruct the events of that morning as I understand them, something stuck out as somewhat unusual. Right after JR and FW were sent to search the house one more time and right before JR discovered JB's body, JR brought the broken window to FW's attention. They went down to the basement, and John showed Fleet the broken window, and he explained how he had broken it a while back to get in the house when he had lost his keys.
My new theory involves JR laying the groundwork for his plan just before the discovery of the body. Perhaps, when JR noticed the window earlier in the day, he thought it would be a perfect way to suggest an intruder, but if he had pointed it out then, the police would have thoroughly inspected the area, and would have known that no intruder came in that window on the night of the 25th. As has been suggested, the perp usually does not discover the body, and they probably do not usually point out staging they created either. JR had hoped that someone else would discover the window, and someone else would discover the body, but his plan was not working. Nobody was taking the bait.
So JR took it upon himself to show FW the window. Plant the seed, if you will. Then moments later, as he runs upstairs with JB's body, he's hoping FW will mention the broken window and think that somebody broke into the house. Now you have a crime scene that is contaminated, and a possible entry/exit point for an intruder that has also been somewhat contaminated by JR and FW picking up glass and poking around.
While this is just one possible scenario, I think that it is clear that whoever committed this crime thought long and hard about how to cover their tracks. There were no fingerprints, there was the wiping of the body, and it has taken 8 years to get a DNA sample with the minimum number of markers for the CODIS system. While the killing may not have been planned, once it happened, heavy planning was done. The long ransom note was a giant diversionary tactic. However, assuming JR is involved, my above suggestions can make good sense.
JR envisioned how it would all go down. Plan one may have been let the police arrive, wait for the phone call, and when it doesn't come, they will leave. Then, the body could be disposed of, never to be seen again. Plan two may have been to let the body be discovered as well as the broken window, but by 1pm the police were not seeing the clues that JR had dropped in the basement, and so JR had to do the dirty work himself. So, he led FW to the basement, pointed out the window, and moments later, discovered JB.
This is just my opinion. While I have a few theories, they all have some kind of hole. The window issue has always bothered me, but this seems to make sense. Comments...?
Did they ever check to see how recently the window was broken?
I'm not sure exactly how they could/would go about doing that. However, what they should've done, and I have not heard anything with regards to this, is to check whether it was fixed after John originally broke it. JR and PR were both so vague about when it was broken and/or when/whether it was fixed, I would think this could be looked into. They could check credit cards/receipts/bank accounts for payment to a glass company or a contractor to install a new window. They both plead ignorance on the issue, but if it was fixed, there would be a record of it somewhere, and there would even be a worker somewhere who could testify that he fixed it.Originally Posted by tipper
My translation: JR broke the window a long time ago, and it was never fixed. It has nothing to do with the crime.
My impression is it's fairly simple. One checks the weathering and accumulation of dirt etc on the broken edge. They should also have been able to check if it was broken from the outside in or inside out.Originally Posted by Voice of Reason
Didn't John say he broke it in the summer when the rest were away? What I remember (and could well be wrong) is Patsy saying somewhere Merv was going to fix it.
A new break, done that night, would have the broken bits of glass still around.
The window was taken into evidence by police.
Officer French went down to the basement to look for POINTS OF ENTRY. He made no mention of the broken window.
Fleet White went down to the basement soon after arriving. He did see the broken window and bent down and picked up a couple of shards of glass. He made no mention of the broken window.
John Ramsey went down to the basement between 7am-9am. He noticed the broken window...closed and latched the window. He made no mention of the broken window.
WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT is GETTING TO THE ROOM with the broken window. The entrance door to the room had a CHAIR leaning against it.
NOBODY MENTIONED THAT!
...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98
Tipper,Originally Posted by tipper
That's exactly what I was going to ask.
In one of the interviews that PR gave (can't remember which one at the moment) she said she cleaned up all the glass very good because the kids always played down there. She even had the maid vaccuum up after her to get all remaiing small pieces. But after many months,FW is still pickng up shards of glass? Is this correct?
JR closing and latching the window is very strange.Why didn't he leave it the way it was? Even if JR rationalized that that was a a broken window from a prior time,wouldn't you still leave it as is,and report it ... most people would.He made sure not to touch the ransom note,and read it on the floor instead of picking it up.
One more thing ... JR said the window was broken a few months ago,PR agrees it was broken a few months ago ... can any one else state with certainty that it was broken few months ago.Also as an aside: Why would people with that kind of money,not bother to fix it?
Just a few things that make you say .... hmmm.
Maybe that chair provides answers here:Originally Posted by Toltec
Maybe the first cop didn't even go into the train room because the chair prevented the train-room door from being a point of intruder entry or exit.
Maybe White didn't mention the window for the same reason: because the chair made it clear that no intruder could have entered or exited there and therefore White figured the window wasn't related to the "intrusion"... yet he, at that very early point, was searching the basement thinking maybe the kids were playiing games and/or JB was just hiding or something like that.
Maybe the stager put the chair there deliberately in an attempt to close off the train room (one whole section of the basement) and lead the cops and/or visiting friends more directly to the body -- to streamline the path to the body -- so that it would be found very quickly. Unfortunately for the stager, this didn't happen.
As for the broken window, it may have been staged before the stager(s) decided it was better to have the body found quickly, reduce possible staging evidence and end the drama as soon as possible -- hoping to avoid excruciating waiting, prevent FBI interference (by turning the kidnapping into a homicide), and get themselves on their private plane and out of Dodge asap. OR perhaps the broken window was related to the blow that hit JB's head and the stager tried to close off that line of inquiry by blocking the door with the chair.
Did anyone ever ask the Ramseys WHO put that chair there up against the door to the train room?
One of them had to have done that.
Could have been an innocent act of just setting the chair aside out of the way in the hallway for some reason. Could have been done by any of the Ramseys or Linda Pugh days before the murder for that matter.
Probably had nothing at all to do with the crime itself.
But one thing it DOES show - there was NO intruder that exited from that broken window.
It's just shameful that Lou Smit KNOWS this fact of the door pushed up against the door to that room - and yet chooses to IGNORE that fact to peddle his stupid intruder theory.
How dumb does he think people are not to notice that?
If it weren't for the ransom note that I believe Patsy Ramsey indeed wrote, I would wonder if John Ramsey was in fact the sole stager after he stumbled upon what Burke had done to his sister thereby sparing his fragile wife of what really happened.
But - the note does exist and has Patsy all over it. In more ways than handwriting that cannot be eliminated by her.
This post is my opinion.
I can't answer your question directly, but if I had to guess, they would answer..."I don't know."Originally Posted by K777angel
"I would wonder if John Ramsey was in fact the sole stager"Originally Posted by K777angel
Why would Patsy construct a ransom note outlining a kidnap scenario unless she was already aware of JonBenet's death and was engaged in evidential staging?
Could it be that Patsy had already discovered JonBenet dead upstairs and the ransom note was her attempt at explaining away JonBenet's death.
Then she moved JonBenet to the basement, someone did, then did John decide to relocate her to the wine-cellar adding the staging that conforms to that of a sadistic lust homicide. Since obviously with her body dead in the house, its not a kidnapping case!
Britt:Originally Posted by Britt
You make some good points here, I tend to think those that looked assumed, given the size of the window, it was probably not a point of exit or entrance for an intruder. But considering that it may have played some role. I wonder if it was used to pass forensic evidence back out?
I wonder why ST's book specifically says the door to the train room was open.
Steve Thomas wasn't there, his input is often "off".
The window should be an easy assessment, if it was broken in the summer, very little glass should have been there, most would have been vacuumed or cleaned up long before Christmas. If all of the glass from the break was there, then sure, it was recently broken.
Originally Posted by tipper
Steve Thomas said the door to the train room was open because the door to the train room WAS open. The door was open when Officer French went down there around 6:05 AM; and it was open when Fleet White went down there about 15 minutes later. JOHN is the only one who said the door was closed and blocked by a chair. John booted it when he let it slip during the interview that he had to move the chair.
John's unintended comment proves John was in the train room BEFORE Officer French and Fleet White. IOW, John had been in the train room prior to the 911 call at 5:52 AM because in his own words he said he had to move the chair from in front of the door before he could enter the room. Once the chair had been moved, it stayed moved. Officer French made no note of the chair because it wasn't in the way when he checked the train room at 6:05 AM. Likewise with Fleet White at 6:20 AM. John booted it big time with his unintended remark about moving the chair. John lied to the cops about what time he was in the train room.
Please remember that the events of that whole morning were based on a lie as revealed by the final four seconds of the 911 tape, which proved Burke was downstairs talking to the parents when Patsy made the call. The chair thing also proves the Ramseys lied and were actually up and about long before the 911 call and clearly hours earlier than they stated to the cops.
The BPD is well aware of the endless stream of Ramsey lies, and it's the reason the cops must keep the Ramseys under that "umbrella of suspicion". The media has been misled and they are wrong in their current conspiratorial efforts in conjunction with the D.A.'s office and the courts in trying to ram a convoluted intruder theory down the throats of the public.
wow ... once again BC ... great post!
Although I have not heard that "enhanced" 911 tape in quite a while. I do remember it. I also remember laughing at how incredibly fake it sounded. Although I suppose to someone who wants to hear will hear what they want.Originally Posted by BlueCrab
Originally Posted by Zman
No one among the public has heard the Aerospace Corporation's enhanced final four seconds of the 911 tape. That professionally-enhanced four-second portion of the tape contains Burke's voice and is in the possession of LE. It has never been released to anyone. A copy of the original 911 tape, including the unenhanced final four seconds, is available to anyone.
Bluecrab-Originally Posted by BlueCrab
If the version with Burke's voice hasn't been released to the public how can you be so sure what it reveals? Have you heard it yourself?
Last edited by bensmom98; 05-21-2005 at 04:48 PM. Reason: addition
Originally Posted by bensmom98
No, I haven't heard it. But I've been told by a source whom I trust that Burke's voice is on there. And an awful lot of law enforcement investigators and civilian attorney interrogators (who are officers of the court) have put their careers on the line if the enhanced final four seconds of that 911 tape does not have Burke's voice on it.
It's on there. But unless there's a confession none of us will ever hear it. The Colorado Children's Code and the court's gag order won't allow it.
Q. So it was actually audible on that equipment at the Boulder Police Department?
A. No, Mr. Hoffman, let me make sure I understand you. What are you -- what was audible?
Q. Burke's or the voice of someone who could have been Burke Ramsey talking in the background
at the very end of Patsy Ramsey's, you know, conversation with 911.
A. Well, you're cutting right to the punch line. There is a long story behind it but, yes, myself and
others listened to that tape and heard this third voice.
Q. So do you -- were you able to identify that third voice, you personally?
A. Well, I don't have any training in voice identification, but certainly it sounded to me to be a young
MR. WOOD: Are you asking him, Darnay --
Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Were you able to draw based on your own personal experience of
hearing this tape that there was a voice of somebody who sounded like a young boy? A. Yes, that was my personal observation coming away from that.
Weren't there supposed to be 2 additional voices, Burke AND John talking?
"Their work produced a startling conclusion. Patsy apparently had trouble hanging up the telephone, and before it rested on the cradle she was heard to moan, "Help me, Jesus, Help me, Jesus." Her husband was heard to bark, "We're not talking to you." And in the background was a young-sounding voice: "What did you find?" It was JonBenet's brother, Burke."
Also, I noticed in ST's ppbk p124 he says "The psychologist had said it was very unusual for a child to feel safe when a sibling had been violently killed."
Yet in PMPT Schiller, mentioning the same psychologistand interview, says of Burke "He didn't seem to be holding anything back, and he appeared to be dealing with the absence of his sister in the expected way."
So is this the Thomas double-speak where he says one thing that is technically true, but hopes you will infer much, much more from it?
BlueCrab,Originally Posted by BlueCrab
Are you sure that John actually said the door was closed?
I can't find where I read his interview but I didn't think John said the door was closed, in fact I didn't think he mentioned whether it was or wasn't, I thought he only said a chair was blocking the door and he moved the chair.
I also thought that he could have mean't that the chair was in the doorway partially obstructing it, rather than completely blocking it. I thought that both French and Fleet White possibly pushed past the chair, as they went through the doorway earlier in the morning, but that when John came to go through the doorway he went to the trouble of moving the chair and putting it in a more appropriate position. I think this is all to be expected. When you are in someone else's house as French and Fleet White were, you don't normally move furniture around if you can avoid it, but that John as the householder would have been inclined to move the chair as he went through the doorway, because putting things in their correct place is what you do in your own house.
Now this is all from my memory and John might have said something different. And if he did then all my reasoning is a waste.
Any directions to the original interview would be greatly appreciated.
Aussie,Originally Posted by aussiesheila
In one of the interviews with John Ramsey,it went something like this:
The interviewer said in so many words,"John if the intruder left from that window it was impossible for the intruder to put the chair back in front of the door."
John's reply was (not verbatom): "No not really,if the intruder was devious enough to plan this whole thing,and leave little clues,there was
a way he could have figured out how to put the chair back against the door when he left."
Good answer John.(my own tongue in cheek reply.)
Don't remember which interview that was ... but I can look it up if you want.
Thanks very much for your reply capps. Yes that sounds like the interview that I read. Oh but isn't it scary how differently we have remembered it? And thanks if you could look up the interview I would appreciate it.
You're welcome aussie.Originally Posted by aussiesheila
I wasn't able to link it here .. but I found it at the acandyrose site,it was an excerpt form the NE book "JonBenet,The Police Files" - pg.314.
Hope this helps.