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  1. #1
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    Fantasy Island, 'DA Plane, Da Plane'

    Thought it might be interesting to re-re-visit the Ramsey Plane.

    John had done re configurations on 'Da Plane' that made it the fastest of its kind of that particular make and model. Info can be found in DOI on the ramifications and the comment about HOW fast it was.

    Question: Does anyone have transcripts of interview with Ramseys concerning WHAT TIME they were to leave on 'DA Plane' the 26th??

    The family Ramsey were up at the crack of dawn the 26th. (not Burke and certainly NOT JonBenet) PR full makeup when the BPD came.

    My memory may be failing, correct me if I err, BUT I am remembering that when JR tried to call 'the private pilot' the pilot was not available. I am remembering the plane WAS NOT ready at 10 AM, do I err in my memory???

    IF IF it was NOT ready at 10 AM WHERE HAD IT BEEN. JR was at the airport Christmas Day prepping their early AM takeoff, DID HE fuel 'DA Plane the 25th?

    JUST WHAT did he do the 25th with DA Plane.

    I don't know the set up at the airport on re-fueling, (??were the fueling pumps accessible with a credit card er how 'was' payment made for fueling??) was 'da pilots' credit card used on the 26th or was JR's card used on the 25th?

    IF IF IF one of the 'things' JR did at the airport on the 25th was checking the fuel, and 'DA Plane', how come the 'DA Plane' was NOT ready on the 26th at 10AM (IF 10AM is correct as I am remembering.)

    Keep in mind that JR had to (his words in DOI) sell 'DA Plane' shortly after Susannah Chase murder in 1997, to cover his legal expenses as I recall. 'DA Plane was sold at a considerable discount to 'da pilot' at that time. The sale info was online at one time, I don't have a source for the figure it was sold for.

    (Another co-hort on WS, and I yahoo chatted together on the speed of the plane, and the distance as a crow would fly to GA, and it was a workable time frame to have transported someone away from Boulder.) Don't bother arguing with me, WE did it. I had a source in the FAA who checked the model of plane JR had, FAA has a huge book with every make and type of plane and all technical info about the planes, in the event of an in air 'situation' that requires immediate assistance) and the speed. Plus we factored in the added features JR had redone on 'DA Plane' to make it even faster.



    .
    Opinions expressed by me, are mine, based on life experience, and known facts of any given case.





    """I am just a pixel in the universal plan."""

  2. #2
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    Rod Westmoreland is the one who was not available, not Archuleta. John Ramsey asked Archuleta to contact the older children to call immediately when they arrive in Minneapolis.

    Rainsong

  3. #3
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    Your Memory's Pretty Good.

    Your WS cohort was probably MJenn, part of her long JAR theory? I remember it too. She proved that there was indeed time for JAR to have flown to Boulder, maybe with a pal, and back to Atlanta in time to board a plane with his sister as had been planned, approximately 6 AM if I remember correctly.

    Maybe you also remember that at the time I said "Listen carefully" is a favorite saying of a TV preacher in Atlanta, Charles Stanley. He was one of the original 3 founders of the so-called Moral Majority, along with Falwell and Presbyterian D. James Kennedy. Forum people apparently are not taking this possible connection seriously. It may be a good, even major, clue. Someone who'd sat in church in Atlanta and heard this phrase, maybe for a lifetime, may have written the note. I'm not Baptist and only know about the program because it comes on right after one that I do watch most every week.

    Chris Stanley was one of JAR's pals, probably a relative of the TV preacher. I probably asked at the time, could this buddy have written the ransom note after the accident and unintentionally ID'd himself by using the Atlanta church phrase Listen Carefully? JAR had said Patsy was "flashy" as if he didn't "particularly like" her.

    I don't think he or anyone at the rumored party would have intended to kill JonBenet. Maybe he didn't even actually go there. But there are RUMORS of a FW party late that night, according to another forum, so JAR and his friend and all the others COULD have looked in on the party, if there was a party. Burke's statement that JonBenet went home with them and walked upstairs seems honest and spontaneous. If there was this party, maybe someone from it came and got JonBenet from her bed, returned her to the bsmt room as if she'd never left the house, to cover for themselves. Or, come to think of it, "We didn't mean for this to happen" and "I'm so sorry" certianly could have meant the parents rationalized that JonBenet could catch up on her sleep on the way to Charlevoix and gave their consent. So that now they feel so guilty and can't expose that. Also, as a former LE person at another forum suggested, someone too high up in gov't to tangle with may have been involved.

    Wish we knew where JAR and his pals are now, if they're now married with children, what they're doing, etc.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainsong
    Rod Westmoreland is the one who was not available, not Archuleta. John Ramsey asked Archuleta to contact the older children to call immediately when they arrive in Minneapolis.

    Rainsong
    I have a vague memory that Archuleta wasn't immediately available for one of the times John called him and had to call John back. I think we talked about it on Jayelles site. I also have an even vaguer memory that the prep for the plane included fueling and the de-prep (as it were) included draining the fuel out. It would make sense that they don't want a bunch of planes sitting around a runway full of combustible fuel.

  5. #5
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    Thought It Was Archuletta

    I sure thought it was Archuletta himself who wasn't available on time. We talked about his possibly having flown JAR to Atlanta and that he badly needed a few z's.

    One of JAR's Atlanta pals had relatives who owned a small airport, and we speculated that he flew JAR to Boulder, correct?

  6. #6
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    DOI pb, page 15

    This phone call to Archuleta is after John Ramsey attempted to call Westmoreland and before he (JR) received a return call from him (RW) informing him a $118, 000 line of credit has been made available. This phone call to Archuleta is prior to 10AM.

    John Ramsey, according to DOI, did not call Archuleta again until after finding JonBenet.

    Rainsong

  7. #7
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    The first time JR tried calling Archuletta was right after Fernie arrived at the home...PMPT paperback, page 78...

    "A few minutes later, John Ramsey tried to phone his pilot, Mike Archuletta to tell him what had happened and learned that the pilot was already on his way to the airport..."


    PMPT...page(s) 135

    "About 10 minutes after Patsy Ramsey called 911, and three minutes after Officer French arrived at the Ramsey house, John tried to call Archuletta at the airport. Instead he reached co-pilot Bjelkovig..."


    PMPT...page 136

    By 6:05, the police, the Fernies, the Whites, and the Ramsey's pilots all knew about the kidnapping, though the ransom note had threatened that JonBenet would die if Ramsey informed anyone. The police were puzzled about why John Ramsey was in such a hurry to tell his pilot that his daughter had been kidnapped. When Ramsey finally talked to Archuletta that morning, he instructed the pilot not to fly to Minneapolis. Instead, Archuletta was to notify the commercial airline on which Ramsey's children were arriving from Atlanta, and leave word for them to call their father. At 1:30 pm, just 25 minutes after JonBenet's body was found, John Ramsey called Archuletta again, at his home.


    She's gone, Ramsey said. They've killed her. Then he told Archuletta to ready the plane for a flight to Atlanta that evening. Fleet White then called Archuletta at 3:00pm to say that the trip to Atlanta had been canceled. Ramsey's flight plans raised more questions for the police: Why had Ramsey called Archuletta so soon after JonBenet's body was found, and why did he want to leave Boulder?"

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=Moab] ...
    PMPT...page 136

    By 6:05, the police, the Fernies, the Whites, and the Ramsey's pilots all knew about the kidnapping, though the ransom note had threatened that JonBenet would die if Ramsey informed anyone. The police were puzzled about why John Ramsey was in such a hurry to tell his pilot that his daughter had been kidnapped. When Ramsey finally talked to Archuletta that morning, he instructed the pilot not to fly to Minneapolis. Instead, Archuletta was to notify the commercial airline on which Ramsey's children were arriving from Atlanta, and leave word for them to call their father. At 1:30 pm, just 25 minutes after JonBenet's body was found, John Ramsey called Archuletta again, at his home.


    ...QUOTE]
    No sure why the police would find this puzzling. If John thought his day would be consumed with dropping off ransom $$s etc, he'd want to take care of getting the other en route kids squared away as quickly as possible,

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipper
    No sure why the police would find this puzzling. If John thought his day would be consumed with dropping off ransom $$s etc, he'd want to take care of getting the other en route kids squared away as quickly as possible,
    Also, wouldn't JR call him after JBR was kidnapped to say that they're not coming to the airport? That's the one call that makes sense to me.

  10. #10
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    Maybe it seemed to the police that a man whose day would be consumed with trying to save his child from murderous kidnappers would not, could not, be thinking about anything else.

    And if it was his older kids he wanted to communicate with, why not call them directly or have them paged at the commercial airline? Or why not take advantage of the invited friends on the scene and ask one of them to call the kids? Considering the house full of support group and John's apparent need to delegate, why would he need to be making any phone calls himself?

    IMO it struck many people as odd that John and Patsy had such a need to "share" that morning... when one would think their sole concern would be for JonBenet and her safety.

    Anyway, I'd think that in any crime situation it would raise cop eyebrows if one of the major players in the drama displayed an urgent need to be in contact with the pilot of his (possible) getaway plane. Why should John Ramsey be exempt from such "puzzlement"?


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipper
    No sure why the police would find this puzzling. If John thought his day would be consumed with dropping off ransom $$s etc, he'd want to take care of getting the other en route kids squared away as quickly as possible,
    PMPT - 136 "...though the ransom note had threatened that JonBenet would die if Ramsey informed anyone..."

    I can understand calling the police from a cell phone, but numerous miscellaneous calls from the land line, and here one must remember just how many calls Patsy made as well? Who would do that? Someone who knew they wouldn't be jeopardizing the life of their daughter? Did he have to make all those calls? Couldn't he have given the message about notifying JAR and Melinda to the co-pilot?

  12. #12
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    There's also another passage in one of the books where John asks Archuletta how long it would take to get the plane ready to depart to Atlanta.

    Archuletta answers a couple of hours (don't remember the exact time) - but point being - if the plane was supposed to be ready for take off early that morning, why wouldn't it already be on stand-by? Why would it take an hour or more....?

    Also, I believe it was after 11 am when Archuletta finally returns John's phone calls from the morning (when he wasn't at home and when he wasn't at the airport).

    Another interesting note - Archuletta now owns that airplane.
    IMO -

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLynn
    There's also another passage in one of the books where John asks Archuletta how long it would take to get the plane ready to depart to Atlanta.

    Archuletta answers a couple of hours (don't remember the exact time) - but point being - if the plane was supposed to be ready for take off early that morning, why wouldn't it already be on stand-by? Why would it take an hour or more....?

    Also, I believe it was after 11 am when Archuletta finally returns John's phone calls from the morning (when he wasn't at home and when he wasn't at the airport).

    Another interesting note - Archuletta now owns that airplane.
    We had a friend with his own plane. He was a stickler for safety and I'll bet would have done a complete pre-flight even though he'd done one 7 or 8 hours earlier. Anyway, found this:
    http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2004/apr/preflight.html



    Pilot Proficiency: The Ultimate Preflight
    The assumption that the airplane has always worked in the past is no excuse for a hasty inspection

    BY Budd Davisson

    The operative word there is "almost." "Almost zero" isnít zero. Although weíll never get an airplane to be 100% in terms of condition, wouldnít it be silly to get hurt just because we didnít bother to spend an extra five minutes and missed a loose nut or a crack that was right there, ready to be discovered?

    Not everything that goes wrong with an airplane is catastrophic, but who wants anything to be wrong with their airplane? Here are some examples of glitches found in our personal airplanes during preflights over the years: a dozen or so broken exhaust stacks, a broken (not cracked, but broken) motor mount, one of the main through-bolts holding the engine case together was lying in the bottom of the cowl, a cracked oil cooler, leaking brake calipers, a cracked scissor link on the nosegear, etc.


    Realistically, there are limits to what we can actually inspect during a preflight because we donít have access to the entire airplane without pulling out panels. In many cases, we canít even do a thorough inspection of the engine compartment because the cowling only has an oil door. Still, we should avail ourselves of what access there is and do our best to make sure there isnít a gremlin hiding in a corner somewhere thatís just waiting to bite us in our personal empennage. So, if we canít pull out panels, just what can we check on a normal walkaround thatís often overlooked?

    Most POHs include a little walkaround map that usually starts with checking the oil on the right side of the engine cowl. Weíll start in the same place and slowly work our way around the airplane back to where we started. Before we start, however, weíll assemble a paltry toolkit that includes a screwdriver/fuel tester, a clean rag and a flashlight. At least the first preflight each day should be done with a flashlight. Ideally, a flashlight should be used on all preflights.

    Checking Oil
    When loosening the dipstick, see if thereís any "give" in the oil fill tube. If itís loose where it screws into the engine case, itíll start leaking there.

    How does the oil look? Clean? Dirty? Dead black? Maybe itís way past the time to change it. And whatís the level? Look in the POH for your engine and stay well above the minimum oil level indicated. If the oil is at a minimum or running low, thatís because itís either leaking or burning. So, if you take off with it low, itís going to be even lower (or gone) later in the flight. Fill it up above minimum!

    Engine Compartment
    If the oil door is the only aperture in the cowling, chances are youíre going to need a short stool because you canít see down into most of the smaller oil doors while standing on the ramp. Get up and shine your little light around in there. What youíre searching for is anything that looks loose, along with indications of oil leaks.

    Oil is supposed to be inside the engine and the fact that some of it isnít means that somewhere thereís an open fault in the engine. The presence of oil probably just means a gasket or fitting is leaking, but tracking it down can also lead to the discovery of a crack.

    What youíre actually looking for is a change, and this concept applies to the entire preflight. If the engine is always dry and suddenly itís wet, something has changed and you need to find out what it is. Some engines are leakers, so a little oil isnít a change and you fly. A lot of oil is a change and you donít fly.

    If you have more access to the engine compartment or even if youíre limited to peeking through those ridiculous little hatches, youíll want to do at least the following steps:
    ē Check the cylinders around the bases, looking for oil leaks.
    ē Check around rocker covers, looking for leaks.
    ē Check the bottom of cylinder heads, looking for exhaust smudges that indicate exhaust cracks, bad gaskets or possible head cracks.
    ē Check the inside surface of the cowl itself for oil or exhaust smudges. Their location on the cowl gives an indication of where the problem is. If there are new smudges, find out where they came from.
    ē If you can, and the engine isnít hot, grab each spark plug to see if there is any looseness in either the ignition lead or the plug itself.
    ē Scan as much of the motor mount as possible, looking for cracks, dings or burned places.
    ē Check mufflers and heater muffs for smudges made by leaking cracks.
    ē If possible, trace the throttle cable from where it leaves the firewall to the carburetor or fuel control unit, and look for wear and tear, or loose connections.
    ē Trace each oil line and fuel line, looking for chafing or leaks.
    ē Grab the alternator belt and check for tension.
    ē Look for chafe marks, especially on hoses against metal or metal against hoses.
    ē Look in cowl air intakes for baffle cracks, leaks and foreign objects.

    Propeller
    Grab the tip and work it back and forth, looking for looseness. Run your fingernails up the leading and trailing edges. Your nails will catch in scratches, dings and cracks that your fingertips wonít feel. Check the spinner mount screws to see if theyíre loose or if cracks are radiating from the holes.

    Nosegear
    Look for proper strut extension and signs of oleo leaking, and get down and really eyeball the scissors link. If it fails, the strut will rotate and fail, and a simple loose bolt or crack has now turned into an engine and prop overhaul. Rock the nose and see if the nosewheel shows any movement on the axle. Examine the steering linkage for any signs that it has been working against adjacent parts.

    Main Gear Leg
    Check for wrinkles in the fuselage skin where the main gear leg goes into the fuselage. Also, check the belly for wrinkles and, while youíre down there, look for excessive oil (a little is okayóshow me an airplane with a clean belly and Iíll show you an airplane that doesnít fly much).

    Wheel/Brake
    Check the wheel pant for movement and run your hand along the bottom of the brake caliper, looking for hydraulic fluid. Even a little indicates a leak and it doesnít take much of a leak for a brake to go away on you. If thereís fluid on the ground, donít go flying that day. Rock the airplane to see if the wheel is moving on the axle at all, indicating a worn or improperly adjusted axle nut.

    Wing Strut
    Look for signs of rust, corrosion or any indications that any of the bolts or rivets have been working. Especially look for nicks or dings in the struts where theyíve been hit by something.

    Wing
    Eyeball the leading edge for damage and continue down around the wingtip, looking for the same thing. Gently push the wingtip, looking for movement. One of the factors weíre constantly looking for everywhere on the airplane is relative motion between two parts where there isnít supposed to be any. Examine nav-light lenses for security.

    Aileron
    Push the aileron full up so you can see the hinges. Examine where they attach to both the wing and aileron, looking for corrosion/rust, signs theyíve been working and/or cracks. Put the palm of your hand against the bottom of the leading edge of the aileron at each hinge and push up. Youíre looking for vertical movement, which indicates the hinges are loose on the wing or aileron spar. If it has external counterweights, e.g., a Cherokee, check the mount points inside the outboard end of the aileron for cracks. Repeat the same check for the flaps. When the flaps are up and locked, jiggle them and see if theyíre truly locked. Most modern airplanes are. Some older ones arenít supposed to be.

    Fuel Level, Fuel Tanks

    Everyone should have graduated fuel sticks for their tanks, which are readily available for most popular models of airplanes. If you canít feel the fuel with your fingertip, itís critical that you have an accurate way of measuring exactly how much fuel there actually is. Itís a lousy place to be guessing and donít trust the fuel gauges, which are the most frequently inaccurate part of an airplane (that is, if you donít count the pilot claiming how fast his or her airplane is).

    Also look for fuel stains under the wing around the tank. These are sure signs of leaks. At the same time, look at the tank vents to make sure insects arenít building hotels in them.

    Horizontal Tail
    If itís a stabilator, peek down inside the fuselage and/or tail cone and try to see the pivot point. Again, youíre looking for cracks, rust or indications that itís been wearing against something. Move the surface up and down at the tip to see if thereís any sign that itís moving independent of the fuselage.

    On a normal, two-piece tail, rock the stabilizer to see that it has no movement and push the elevator down so you have a clear view of the hinges. Check them the same way you did the ailerons: Push up on the elevator spar and see if thereís any vertical movement relative to the stabilizer.

    If there are any wires or struts for the tail, check them carefully for nicks and chips, and examine the ends, both the top and the bottom, for signs of rust or movement.

    Trim Tabs
    Trim-tab hinges and actuating mechanisms seem to wear more than most parts of an airplane, and a loose or broken trim tab can cause flutter. Flutter is serious stuff and can tear the tail clean off an airplane, which isnít good. Just wiggle the trim tab. Itís okay if it has a little movement, but it shouldnít have much.

    Tail Cone
    Check to see the tail cone is securely attached and that the position light is tight in its mount. Look down inside for birdsí nests or anything else that looks as if it shouldnít be there. Also, use the flashlight to examine the elevator pushrod bolts. All bolts in an airplane should show no less than three and no more than five threads.

    Tailwheel
    Grab the top of the vertical stabilizer and rock the airplane back and forth while you watch the tailwheel. Youíre looking for relative movement between the fuselage and the spring, between the spring and the tailwheel, and between the tailwheel and the wheel itself. Listen for clicking, which will indicate something is moving.

    Pitot System
    Bugs are the pitotís biggest enemy, with dings being next. Some pitot tubes are mounted in such a way that fuelers with hoses have to work hard to avoid them, so watch for indications theyíve been hit or bent. If you change the angle of the pitot tube, you also change the airspeed indicator. And donít forget the static ports that may be located somewhere on the aft fuselage. Keep them clean.

    DonĎt Take Any Chances
    From this point on, it becomes a pre-start, pre-takeoff checklist that requires a vigilance all its own. The bottom line on a preflight, however, is to get to know your airplane intimately, which includes the little dark places you donít normally look into.

    The assumption many pilots hide behind is that the airplane has always worked in the past, so what are the odds of something happening on this particular flight? The exact opposite point of view should prevailóbecause everything wears out eventually, make the assumption that the last flight the airplane was on was when something important broke. Healthy pessimism has its place and one of those places is every time you prepare to go flying.




  14. #14
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    Hmmm

    My hubby had his own little Cessna, two seater, BEFORE I met him. But had sold it BEFORE we met.

    With all of the items on the check list, seems like Patsy could have slept later THAT morning. Burke was and did ?, er, huh - maybe yes, maybe no. Have to take another vote on that one.

    JR and co-pilot flew a lot of places, they surely must have had a checklist for each of them, er maybe just double checked everything twice, once by JR and once by pilot A. I wonder if the BPD ever did a double Q & A of the 'co-pilot that Moab mentioned co-pilot Bjelkovig..."

    Was co-pilot Bjelkovig at the airport that morning to co pilot a plane that WAS not there OR OR even ready, OR NOT back yet. IF IF it was your flying service, would you let a co-pilot do the OFFICIAL check list of another plane, without you supervising it. Just where was pilot A 'that' morning, the owner of the air service. HOW come Bjelkovig was even there at all on December 26th?

    Tipper how many seats did your plane have?

    BUT but but but, (that is my bad engine/outta tune) but but IF IF IF they were going to go EARLY how come Da Plane war not reddy!!!

    The family Ramsey had gone bye bye in Da Plane often, it wasn't like it was a whole new experience to BE ready and Da Plane to be ready.

    I smell funny stuff, and it ain't engine oil.
    Opinions expressed by me, are mine, based on life experience, and known facts of any given case.





    """I am just a pixel in the universal plan."""

  15. #15
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    I really wouldnt know, but wouldnt a plane have to leave at the time certivied,its not like driving out of a carpark,i not sure about airspace but im thinking it would be fairly strict

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