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  1. #1
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    12-25-96 Very telling

    I caught part of a horrible movie last night--something about perfect murder, perfect town or something of the like about JBR's killing.

    Towards the end, there was a startling revelation about JBR's tomstone....it says 12/25/96 instead of 12/26/96 when her body was found. To my knowledge, no one EVER pinned a particular time of death. In fact, it was the Ramsey's testimony that they went to bed late which would suggest that the 'so called killer' would have waited at least a couple hours to make sure everyone was asleep.

    Errors are not generally made with dates of death on tombstones, etc. I was blown away and sat straight up in my chair when I saw that tombstone. It jives with the theory that perhaps JBR and BR were sharing some pineapple before bed and that she was killed shortly thereafter on the 25th.

    I find that one of the more telling clues yet.....most evidence according to the Ramsey theory is that she would have been killed in the wee hours of the morning on 12/26.

    May all of them who were involved rot.....

    Cal

  2. #2
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    The date on the tombstone was put that way intentionally by the Ramseys. They tell why in their book.

  3. #3
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    Yeah, I read that just now....

    I am not buying the whole "I wanted the world to know what happened to my little girl on December 25th".

    They put it on there because that is the day she died and they know it.

    IMHO, of course.

    Cal

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by calus_3
    Yeah, I read that just now....

    I am not buying the whole "I wanted the world to know what happened to my little girl on December 25th".

    They put it on there because that is the day she died and they know it.

    IMHO, of course.

    Cal,

    Most estimates of time of death, including my own estimate, are around 1:00 AM on the 26th. But now that you bring it up, I agree TOD could have been just prior to midnight. It would be a time squeeze though.

    For instance, from the best information available to us we can assume all of the Ramseys were in bed by about 10:00 PM. So sometime after 10 JonBenet got out of bed and went downstairs where she ate pineapple at the breakfast room table, presumably with Burke. To fit the tight timeline then, let's say she snuck downstairs at 10:30. The autopsy revealed the pineapple was in the proximal part of JonBenet's small intestine, which means she ate it around one hour before she died. That would put TOD at 11:30 PM on the 25th.

    But how would the Ramseys know that?

    BlueCrab

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    Cal,

    Most estimates of time of death, including my own estimate, are around 1:00 AM on the 26th. But now that you bring it up, I agree TOD could have been just prior to midnight. It would be a time squeeze though.

    For instance, from the best information available to us we can assume all of the Ramseys were in bed by about 10:00 PM. So sometime after 10 JonBenet got out of bed and went downstairs where she ate pineapple at the breakfast room table, presumably with Burke. To fit the tight timeline then, let's say she snuck downstairs at 10:30. The autopsy revealed the pineapple was in the proximal part of JonBenet's small intestine, which means she ate it around one hour before she died. That would put TOD at 11:30 PM on the 25th.

    But how would the Ramseys know that?

    BlueCrab
    BC when I read this at 2B WS I thought of you.

    "The NE book page 231 JBTPF
    In a crucial part of the interrogation, Patsy was shown a crime scene photo of a cereal bowl found on the table of the breakfast room off the kitchen. The bowl contained pineapple chunks and had Patsy's fingerprints on it. Fresh pineapple was found in JonBenét's stomach, (sic) and she would have eaten it two to five hours before her death, according to experts consulted by the Boulder police."

    According to ST it would have been cause for suspicion whichever date they used. He never did say what they would have put if they were innocent.

  6. #6
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    I knew about the tombstone date a while back.

    I hate to say it,but when I heard of it,I thought it was another "Ramsey Drama". It sounds much more dramatic to have people think your daughter was killed on Christmas Day ... then plain old Dec.26.

    What I think is really weird is that picture of PR kneeling next to JB's grave. Is that a picture that has been doctored for the rag mags ... or is it the real deal?
    Last edited by capps; 05-20-2005 at 05:35 PM. Reason: typos

  7. #7
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    Doesn't matter what they said, what they did, what they dressed her in, what activities she participated in, what they chose to put on the headstone, people would still criticize.

    Rainsong

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipper
    BC when I read this at 2B WS I thought of you.

    "The NE book page 231 JBTPF
    In a crucial part of the interrogation, Patsy was shown a crime scene photo of a cereal bowl found on the table of the breakfast room off the kitchen. The bowl contained pineapple chunks and had Patsy's fingerprints on it. Fresh pineapple was found in JonBenét's stomach, (sic) and she would have eaten it two to five hours before her death, according to experts consulted by the Boulder police."

    According to ST it would have been cause for suspicion whichever date they used. He never did say what they would have put if they were innocent.

    Tipper,

    The NE book is wrong. Two to five hours for the pineapple to get from the stomach to the proximal (beginning) part of the small intestine is ridiculous. And the NE book gave no source other than "experts consulted by the Boulder police".

    The pineapple is an important part of my theories. Thus, I have researched this topic exhaustively, and the estimates derived from articles written by medical doctors range from 30 minutes to two hours for pineapple, eaten on an empty stomach, to get from the stomach to the entrance of the small intestine.

    Fruit digests quickly unless it's mixed with other food in the stomach, THEN it could take two to five hours to leave the stomach and enter the small intestine. But the pineapple was the only food in JonBenet's small intestine; therefore it would have passed quickly from the stomach to the small intestine -- IMO in about one hour.

    BlueCrab

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainsong
    Doesn't matter what they said, what they did, what they dressed her in, what activities she participated in, what they chose to put on the headstone, people would still criticize.

    Rainsong
    To some extent, I believe you are correct. They will always be criticized for the pre-death behavior. But, IMHO, there were certain things they could have done after-the-fact that may have relieved them from some of the scrutiny. For starters, they could have stayed in Boulder and worked with the police, but then again, I guess not every parent of a murdered child has 3 houses scattered about the country and a private jet to get to and from. I also think the writing of a book and filing all the lawsuits was not such a good idea. They're best bet, again, IMHO, would have been to cooperate and stay as far away from the limelight as is possible in that situation...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    Tipper,

    The NE book is wrong. Two to five hours for the pineapple to get from the stomach to the proximal (beginning) part of the small intestine is ridiculous. And the NE book gave no source other than "experts consulted by the Boulder police".

    The pineapple is an important part of my theories. Thus, I have researched this topic exhaustively, and the estimates derived from articles written by medical doctors range from 30 minutes to two hours for pineapple, eaten on an empty stomach, to get from the stomach to the entrance of the small intestine.

    Fruit digests quickly unless it's mixed with other food in the stomach, THEN it could take two to five hours to leave the stomach and enter the small intestine. But the pineapple was the only food in JonBenet's small intestine; therefore it would have passed quickly from the stomach to the small intestine -- IMO in about one hour.

    BlueCrab
    No, it is not ridiculous. JonBenet had a pancake breakfast earlier in the day. If she ate a bite or two of pineapple prior to leaving for the Whites', some of the pancakes, hash browns, bacon, etc. would have still been in her stomach.

    Ask yourself what made up the fecal matter in her large intestine and what exactly was the viscous to green to tan colored thick mucous material found in her stomach.

    Rainsong


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainsong
    No, it is not ridiculous. JonBenet had a pancake breakfast earlier in the day. If she ate a bite or two of pineapple prior to leaving for the Whites', some of the pancakes, hash browns, bacon, etc. would have still been in her stomach.

    Ask yourself what made up the fecal matter in her large intestine and what exactly was the viscous to green to tan colored thick mucous material found in her stomach.

    Rainsong
    I don't believe that's accurate. It normally takes 2-4 hours for food to pass from the stomach (depending on what was eaten and the overall health of the person. IE people with colitis have a much faster digestive system on certain foods.) to the intestinal tract. She would not have any breakfast food left in her stomach.

    The Ramsey's state that they ate dinner at the White's approximately 6-6:30 or so that evening. Wasn't JonBenet recovering from yet another sinus infection at that time? Antibiotics can cause changes in the digestive times of certain foods too.

    In 4 hours or so anything ingested would probably be in the intestinal tract.

    Again Meyer messed up on an essential part of his job. Establishing the actual time of death. He has it listed as 12/26/96 @13:23 (that's 1:23 PM) when her body was brought up from the basement. He never even saw the body until 8:20 PM and then he never took a liver temp, or did an occular fluid test. One of the most immediate concerns at a crime scene is to establish time of death.

    No one knows what actual (or even within an hour or 2 of her actual death) time JonBenet died except for whoever killed her.

    She could have died before Midnight or at 3am. We'll never know when she last actually ate anything. The last report of her eating anything was at the White's, and then it was a little cracked crab Priscilla saved especially for her.

    From the autopsy: I've explained in parenthasis and in bold what these notations from the coroner mean for those who are unfamiliar with autopsies.

    G.I. Tract: The esophagus is empty. It is lined by gray-white mucosa. (normal) The stomach contains a small amount (8-10 cc) of viscous to green to tan colored thick mucous material without particulate matter identified. (normal bile, no food residue found) The gastric mucosa is autolyzed but contains no areas of hemorrhage or ulceration. (normal) The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparent vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple. (unknown at time of autospy if it actually was friut or vegetable matter without a biological analysis and "fragmented" means a very small and torn apart amount. This is probably why it is readily believed she took a couple of chunks of pinapple to snack on.) No hemorrhage is identified. The remainder of the small intestine is unremarkable. (empty of any digested food. That means that she snacked after dinner as no crab meat was found in her proximal portion of small intestine) The large intestine contains soft green fecal material. (remains of breakfast and dinner) The appendix is present.
    I also thought of something while re-reading this. Realistically JB could have had some pinapple in her room or bathroom that nobody really noticed. Kids sometimes snack on things they've taken and left in their rooms...

  12. #12
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    Not necessarily. Like all things regarding humans, the digestive system is highly variable. The normal range is 2-5 hours but that can be both a shorter or a longer period of time depending on health, activity level, stress/excitement level, etc.

    BTW, no coroner worth his salt is going to report a firm TOD unless he was at the scene of the death or there were other eyewitnesses. The medical field has been trying for nearly two centuries to establish firm criteria for determining TOD and have yet to hit on any. There are clues which point to a general timeline, but not a to-the-minute/hour, such as rigor, livor mortis, liver temperature, stomach contents etc. With stomach contents, the value is in knowing the last meal eaten by the deceased.


    Rainsong

  13. #13
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    Rainsong:

    Please stay focused.
    No one ever said that Dr.Meyer should have had a right to the minute/hour TOD .... so why are you going there?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seeker
    I don't believe that's accurate. It normally takes 2-4 hours for food to pass from the stomach (depending on what was eaten and the overall health of the person. IE people with colitis have a much faster digestive system on certain foods.) to the intestinal tract. She would not have any breakfast food left in her stomach.

    The Ramsey's state that they ate dinner at the White's approximately 6-6:30 or so that evening. Wasn't JonBenet recovering from yet another sinus infection at that time? Antibiotics can cause changes in the digestive times of certain foods too.

    In 4 hours or so anything ingested would probably be in the intestinal tract.

    Again Meyer messed up on an essential part of his job. Establishing the actual time of death. He has it listed as 12/26/96 @13:23 (that's 1:23 PM) when her body was brought up from the basement. He never even saw the body until 8:20 PM and then he never took a liver temp, or did an occular fluid test. One of the most immediate concerns at a crime scene is to establish time of death.

    No one knows what actual (or even within an hour or 2 of her actual death) time JonBenet died except for whoever killed her.

    She could have died before Midnight or at 3am. We'll never know when she last actually ate anything. The last report of her eating anything was at the White's, and then it was a little cracked crab Priscilla saved especially for her.

    From the autopsy: I've explained in parenthasis and in bold what these notations from the coroner mean for those who are unfamiliar with autopsies.



    I also thought of something while re-reading this. Realistically JB could have had some pinapple in her room or bathroom that nobody really noticed. Kids sometimes snack on things they've taken and left in their rooms...
    I don't think that's quite right. Whatever has been eaten is processed by the stomach for a period of 2-4 hours during which time it is turned into a combination of gastric juices and digested food (chyme). Even if the crab had been processed completely, the chyme is not all released at the same time because the duodenum cannot handle such a large quantity all at once. Due to the amount of pepsin required to break down the protein, the quantity of chyme is much larger than the amount of food ingested. We also don't know if JonBenet actually sat down and ate a complete meal or only snacked on the crab off and on over the time period of the visit.

    Due to the variables involved in humans, determining TOD based on liver temp can be no more than a rough estimate and the range can be as little or as much as 2.8 hours either side of the estimated TOD.

    If by the occular fluid test you are referring to the measurement of potassium in the vitreous humour, since no one would know what the initial potassium level for any given subject was, there is no way to determine how great a change there would have been since death. Again, an unreliable method of determining TOD.

    I think Lou Smit also thought JonBenet may have snacked on pineapple in her bedroom due to a container found in one of the crime scene photos. Since the container was never taken into evidence, no one really knows.

    Rainsong

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by capps
    Rainsong:

    Please stay focused.
    No one ever said that Dr.Meyer should have had a right to the minute/hour TOD .... so why are you going there?
    Understand, I am not saying anyone said he had to say to the minute, but to denigrate his work because he did not determine TOD is wrong, plain and simple because TOD cannot be determined by more than a rough estimate based on body condition.

    As per my previous post wherein I said 'general TOD,' I am quite focused, but I do thank you for your concern of my mental faculties.

    Rainsong



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