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  1. #1
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    Trial Discussion Thread #17

    Oscar Pistorius: South Africa gears up for its 'trial of the century'

    (CNN) -- He was one of South Africa's favorite sons, an amputee track star who defied all the odds and sprinted into the hearts of millions during the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. She was a staggering beauty with the brains to match, a law graduate and model whose star was on the rise.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/...trial-preview/



    Pistorius channel goes on air in South Africa

    http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306483/con...tguid=Ip4glGHn
    Watch live: Oscar Pistorius murder trial
    Follow events from Pretoria as paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius appears in court accused of murdering his girlfriend, the model Reeva Steenkamp.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...der-trial.html


    Links:

    Full Indictment-4 Counts-107 Witnesses

    http://www.scribd.com/embeds/1856954...endations=true

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...uling-20140225

    http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/D...bloid-20140228


    Twitter:

    https://twitter.com/oscartrial199

    https://twitter.com/GeraldImrayAP

    https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta

    Live Streaming:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_of...l-live-stream/

    http://mybroadband.co.za/news/intern...streaming.html

    http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch...r-trial-day-9/

    http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistorius2.htm

    Live News Feed

    http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Os...torius_trial_4

    Trial Video Archive:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_of...trial-archive/

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    Last edited by Harmony 2; 04-07-2014 at 08:40 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Updated Trial Schedule

    Oscar Pistorius trial postponed due to illness of assessor
    By Richard Allen Greene, CNN - updated 12:38 PM EDT, Fri March 28, 2014The trial of Oscar Pistorius, accused of killing his former girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, was postponed until April 7 because one of two assessors was hospitalized.
    Admin/Mod Note

    Thank you all for participating! This forum has a special dynamic - good sleuthers, intelligent discussions, though provoking opinions expressed ... it makes it enjoyable to read & moderate. We sincerely thank you for that!

    The last few days I've been disappointed to see a few exchanges begin to deteriorate - escalating from a lack of tolerance for differing opinions. Of course opinions are going to differ when a bunch of intelligent, independent thinkers have a discussion. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. I understand the passion but the purpose should not be to change anyone else's mind. Respect your fellow posters and make a conscious effort to be tolerant. Please note that passive-aggressive, snarky, personalized posts will not be tolerated and, beginning immediately, will result in a loss of posting privileges.

    Thanks all.
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  3. #3
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    Trial Discussion Thread #17

    link
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    Continue discussion here...
    Last edited by Harmony 2; 04-02-2014 at 09:42 PM.

  4. #4
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    So .... I read OP's book "Blade Runner" over the last two days. Has anyone else read it?

  5. #5
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    BritsKate is offline Past mistakes should teach you to create a wonderful future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper View Post
    Hello all! Quick question: Many seem to believe that the DT is really going to put forth that Reeva was killed at 3:00 (approximately) and OP did his routine of screaming like a girl and arguing in both a man's and women's voice as 17 minutes (approximately) passed by before calling Stander and then Netcare; does anyone see that as a real possibility? I only ask because I just can't imagine that, although it sure looks like it from the tests at night that the DT did. Desperation is a word that comes to my mind...
    Nope. I can't see many defense attorneys allowing for an almost 20 minute gap that would seriously harm their client's version of events. I believe they're simply going to do their best to discredit the witnesses recollection. As we saw with cross, any minor inconsistency is being used to cast doubt upon the entirety of testimony. That's how they'll tighten the timeline, imo.

    I believe the sound 'test' was conducted for that reason alone - simply to refute that the witnesses could have heard what they did. They'll use their own witnesses to further this too.

    It may seem desperate and/or ludicrous but in reality Roux & Co. have a serious uphill battle ahead of them. Legally, their hands are quite literally tied. Someone earlier quoted an attorney as stating they'd have tried for an insanity plea but in SA the M'Naghten rule applies. For those unfamiliar, the onus to prove mental illness lies with the defence and it is a very heavy burden to prove. There is a legal presumption that the defendant is sane until it is proven otherwise on a balance of probabilities. It's seldom used as a defense because the bar is so high.

    So, insanity defense is really tough to prove; crime of passion doesn't exist; there is no law to mitigate for mistaken identity; self-defense has strict perimeters this crime doesn't meet - so just about all that's left is not guilty due to putative self-defense. So they'll have to discount, diminish, and disregard. Mrs. Stipp was portrayed as a liar; Ms. Burger implied to have an agenda; Botha taints all law enforcement with the corrupt/inept brush, etc. That's about all they can do - and put Oscar on the stand to testify why it's reasonable he should have been so in fear for his life he fired four times without a single warning shot.

    I don't much like Roux...but I certainly wouldn't want the job he has ahead of himself.

    JMO

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    Those snacks are more like it, Harmony2!
    "I'm sorry; if you were right, I would agree with you." - Robin Williams as Dr. Sayer in "Awakenings."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BritsKate View Post
    Nope. I can't see many defense attorneys allowing for an almost 20 minute gap that would seriously harm their client's version of events. I believe they're simply going to do their best to discredit the witnesses recollection. As we saw with cross, any minor inconsistency is being used to cast doubt upon the entirety of testimony. That's how they'll tighten the timeline, imo.

    I believe the sound 'test' was conducted for that reason alone - simply to refute that the witnesses could have heard what they did. They'll use their own witnesses to further this too.

    It may seem desperate and/or ludicrous but in reality Roux & Co. have a serious uphill battle ahead of them. Legally, their hands are quite literally tied. Someone earlier quoted an attorney as stating they'd have tried for an insanity plea but in SA the M'Naghten rule applies. For those unfamiliar, the onus to prove mental illness lies with the defence and it is a very heavy burden to prove. There is a legal presumption that the defendant is sane until it is proven otherwise on a balance of probabilities. It's seldom used as a defense because the bar is so high.

    So, insanity defense is really tough to prove; crime of passion doesn't exist; there is no law to mitigate for mistaken identity; self-defense has strict perimeters this crime doesn't meet - so just about all that's left is not guilty due to putative self-defense. So they'll have to discount, diminish, and disregard. Mrs. Stipp was portrayed as a liar; Ms. Burger implied to have an agenda; Botha taints all law enforcement with the corrupt/inept brush, etc. That's about all they can do - and put Oscar on the stand to testify why it's reasonable he should have been so in fear for his life he fired four times without a single warning shot.

    I don't much like Roux...but I certainly wouldn't want the job he has ahead of himself.

    JMO
    Since the killer went to get a gun, left his bedroom, went down two passages, and then shot four times, I was wondering if there is such a thing as aggressive, preemptive self-defense?

    Is there even such a thing as preemptive self-defense, meaning killing somebody first because you believe he or she may attack you at some point?

    Under the DT's theory, if an intruder was in the bathroom just to steal something, and the intruder saw OP coming with the gun, the intruder would have had the right to shoot OP first.

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    OP says he yelled "help, help, help" out the balcony, so why then say "everything is fine" when he got a call from Security?

    IMO he had to find a place in his affi to account for the "help, help, help" because he really did say it. I tend to believe the neighbor witness who testified that the "help, help, help" she heard was "non-emotional" and sounded to be in a mocking voice.
    "I'm sorry; if you were right, I would agree with you." - Robin Williams as Dr. Sayer in "Awakenings."

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by minor4th View Post
    So .... I read OP's book "Blade Runner" over the last two days. Has anyone else read it?
    No, what did you think? Do you think Oscar had a ghost writer or do you think it was pretty much his own voice?
    "I'm sorry; if you were right, I would agree with you." - Robin Williams as Dr. Sayer in "Awakenings."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittychi View Post
    No, what did you think? Do you think Oscar had a ghost writer or do you think it was pretty much his own voice?
    I thought it was kind of boring, actually, when it seems like there was an opportunity there to have a really captivating human interest kind of story.

    Sounded pretty much like his own voice to me - but I thought I read that he did have a ghostwriter.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BritsKate View Post
    Nope. I can't see many defense attorneys allowing for an almost 20 minute gap that would seriously harm their client's version of events. I believe they're simply going to do their best to discredit the witnesses recollection. As we saw with cross, any minor inconsistency is being used to cast doubt upon the entirety of testimony. That's how they'll tighten the timeline, imo.

    I believe the sound 'test' was conducted for that reason alone - simply to refute that the witnesses could have heard what they did. They'll use their own witnesses to further this too.

    It may seem desperate and/or ludicrous but in reality Roux & Co. have a serious uphill battle ahead of them. Legally, their hands are quite literally tied. Someone earlier quoted an attorney as stating they'd have tried for an insanity plea but in SA the M'Naghten rule applies. For those unfamiliar, the onus to prove mental illness lies with the defence and it is a very heavy burden to prove. There is a legal presumption that the defendant is sane until it is proven otherwise on a balance of probabilities. It's seldom used as a defense because the bar is so high.

    So, insanity defense is really tough to prove; crime of passion doesn't exist; there is no law to mitigate for mistaken identity; self-defense has strict perimeters this crime doesn't meet - so just about all that's left is not guilty due to putative self-defense. So they'll have to discount, diminish, and disregard. Mrs. Stipp was portrayed as a liar; Ms. Burger implied to have an agenda; Botha taints all law enforcement with the corrupt/inept brush, etc. That's about all they can do - and put Oscar on the stand to testify why it's reasonable he should have been so in fear for his life he fired four times without a single warning shot.

    I don't much like Roux...but I certainly wouldn't want the job he has ahead of himself.

    JMO
    Thank you, truly. That is what I thought from basic logic; but my reading here and in other sites - people really do believe in magic!

  12. #12
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    RS was killed at 3:17am according to the PT and this caused the second set of bangs.

    Could you speculate as to what was the source of the first set of bangs then?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by vansleuths View Post
    RS was killed at 3:17am according to the PT and this caused the second set of bangs.

    Could you speculate as to what was the source of the first set of bangs then?
    Without knowing how many bullets OP's gun was capable of holding, it's hard to say if any were missing. I have no idea why the magazine for it was sitting in the bedroom, isn't that what holds the bullets in the gun? I believe there were only four casings found and one bullet was still in the gun, I haven't heard anything else.

  14. #14
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    Looking for testimony on gunshots in second set of 'bangs'

    This is to Lisa post* on Thread 16 #575 -

    "BBM... I have considered this too. I just don't know how exactly to break everything down logistically. It's hard to do until I hear the Defense's side and Nel's cross-examination.

    The State did definitively say it is their position that all shots occurred during the 2nd volley of sounds. They must have a reason why they believe that."

    I love Juror13, thank you for the great blog! I've been looking through it confirm points and it's helped understand a lot of evidence points. I also never saw all the images - that pair of jeans and white belt in the garden underneath the bathroom/toilet windows definitely looks out of place and suggesting some type of argument/incident occurred.

    if possible could you please help me find where the prosecution stated all the gunshots were in the second set of sounds at 3.15ish? Want to relook over that testimony. Thanks

    *Sorry, not sure how to quote from a closed link.

  15. #15
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    reply from post #932 Thread 16.


    I can't find any suggestion that the keys were picked up from the floor by OP on his side of the bathroom door.

    The green key fob with keys were found in the bathroom door (OP's side) by the PT.

    I've assumed that the keys with the green fob were initially in the lock on Reeva's side of the door. The likelihood is that after breaking the top half of the door OP either :-

    a) had to reach round to retrieve the keys which were in the lock just below the handle on Reeva's side. He could then insert a key in the lock on his side to open the door.

    b) the breaking of the door with the cricket bat caused the keys to dislodge from the door on Reeva's side, so OP had to pick them from the floor.
    He could then insert a key in the lock on his side to open the door.

    There was also a suggestion that OP locked Reeva in the bathroom.

    It's possible, but that would necessitate OP locking Reeva in the bathroom first then either :-

    c) breaking down the door whilst the keys still remain in the lock on his side. The keys would still be in the lock when found by DT.

    d) breaking the door with the keys falling to the floor on his side. OP would then have to had placed the keys back in the lock on his side.

    I can't see what purpose the actions c) or d) would serve to help OP in a supposed meticulous cover-up.
    Surely if you wanted it to appear that you hadn't locked Reeva in the bathroom you would ensure the keys were found on Reeva' side of the door?

    Nevertheless, I think it will be quite interesting if there is mention of a spare or second set of bathroom keys.
    This would at least go some way to explain if it would have been quicker for OP to retrieve these, than to spend time bashing the door with a cricket bat.

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