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  1. #1
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    Trial Discussion Thread #20 - 14.04.08, Day 18

    Oscar Pistorius: South Africa gears up for its 'trial of the century'

    (CNN) -- He was one of South Africa's favorite sons, an amputee track star who defied all the odds and sprinted into the hearts of millions during the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. She was a staggering beauty with the brains to match, a law graduate and model whose star was on the rise.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/...trial-preview/



    Pistorius channel goes on air in South Africa

    http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306483/con...tguid=Ip4glGHn
    Watch live: Oscar Pistorius murder trial
    Follow events from Pretoria as paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius appears in court accused of murdering his girlfriend, the model Reeva Steenkamp.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...der-trial.html


    Links:

    Full Indictment-4 Counts-107 Witnesses

    http://www.scribd.com/embeds/1856954...endations=true

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...uling-20140225

    http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/D...bloid-20140228


    Twitter:

    https://twitter.com/oscartrial199

    https://twitter.com/GeraldImrayAP

    https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta

    Live Streaming:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_of...l-live-stream/

    http://mybroadband.co.za/news/intern...streaming.html

    http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch...r-trial-day-9/

    http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistorius2.htm

    Live News Feed

    http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Os...torius_trial_4

    Trial Video Archive:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_of...trial-archive/

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  2. #2
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    Trial Discussion Thread #20 - 14.04.08, Day 20

    link
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    Continue discussion here...

  3. #3
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    Click on this link and read the judgements on diminished criminal capacity and you can now see why this diatribe by Oscar, teased by Roux, to reflect his fragile mental state has been highlighted.....his paranoid fear of burglary, his propensity to engage in violence in the heat of panic for himself or others preservation. ie saving Reeva from percieved threat, so they will claim he acted with diminished responsibility and the 15 year murder minimum could be 8 possibly 5 years total.

    Criminal Law ─ Sentence ─ Diminished responsibility ─ deterrence.

    http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2009/17.html

    'It must be underlined that diminished responsibility consists in loss of restraint and self-control (which does not have to amount to sane automatism to amount to mitigation). That is what happened here. The appellant killed the deceased but when he had 'lost control of [his] inhibitions' ie when his ability to exercise normal self-restraint was impaired.'

  4. #4
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    Diminished Responsibility
    South African law, in line with Anglo-American jurisdictions,
    acknowledges that there are varying degrees of criminal responsibility. As a
    result, Section 78(7) of the Criminal Procedure Act (51 of 1977) states that:
    If the court finds that the accused at the time of the commission of the
    act in question was criminally responsible for the act but that his
    capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of the act or to act in accordance
    with an appreciation of wrongfulness of the act was diminished by
    reason of mental illness or mental defect, the court may take the fact of
    such diminished responsibility into account when sentencing the
    accused.
    In terms of this provision, the accused may be suffering from some form of
    mental illness but the level of impairment experienced does not fulfil the
    requirements for the legal test of insanity. The pathology is then considered to
    be a mitigating factor in the degree of responsibility. A defence of diminished
    responsibility does not afford the accused complete exculpation, but may
    result in a reduced sentence instead of indefinite confinement to a state
    psychiatric hospital (Snyman, 2002)

    http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/psycholog...w/insanity.pdf

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    So although I truly believe he has some serious mental health issues and he is displaying some of the classic signs of one psychotic dude, paranoia, delusions, outbursts of irrational temper, inappropriate actions in public, restaurant....its all for the money shot......
    Reduced sentencing because he's a first offender, whose judgement on the night was impaired by his irrational fear of intruders and he has promised he will never do it again.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavel Rash View Post
    So although I truly believe he has some serious mental health issues and he is displaying some of the classic signs of one psychotic dude, paranoia, delusions, outbursts of irrational temper, inappropriate actions in public, restaurant....its all for the money shot......
    Reduced sentencing because he's a first offender, whose judgement on the night was impaired by his irrational fear of intruders and he has promised he will never do it again.
    The thing of it is, people who have the kind of psychotic/delusional disorders you are contending OP has cannot be held responsible for their actions. I can't see how this is a knock on OP. If OP is really that sick (which I don't believe) then the appropriate place for him would be a hospital, not a prison.
    "He who introduces KY into the relationship is no abused virgin." - Aristotle

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavel Rash View Post
    So although I truly believe he has some serious mental health issues and he is displaying some of the classic signs of one psychotic dude, paranoia, delusions, outbursts of irrational temper, inappropriate actions in public, restaurant....its all for the money shot......
    Reduced sentencing because he's a first offender, whose judgement on the night was impaired by his irrational fear of intruders and he has promised he will never do it again.
    yep entirely possible. unless they can convince the judge that there were the screams that he must have heard, and knew they were from RS. at any time before shots 2, 3, and 4. surely, then the fear of intruders defence falls down.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeeBee View Post
    The thing of it is, people who have the kind of psychotic/delusional disorders you are contending OP has cannot be held responsible for their actions. I can't see how this is a knock on OP. If OP is really that sick (which I don't believe) then the appropriate place for him would be a hospital, not a prison.
    Your right if he is that sick yes he should be, however what if his mental state is a transient one exacerbated by stress, herbal testosterone, past trauma. This what Roux is trying to establish...making him appear uncontrolled, a driven man whose legless state has him cloaked in paranoia/emotional stress (mind you Oscar made the legless-ness so not a thing in his statements yesterday, it didnt help Roux) they can pull the

    'South African criminal law now accepts four sources or bases for incapacity: youth, mental
    illness or defect,intoxication,and severe emotional stress.'

    The defence of incapacity due to mental illness or defect is known as the insanity defence. The defence of incapacity due to severe
    emotional stress has come to be known as the defence of non-pathological criminal incapacity.1

    http://criminallaw101andbeyond.files...corrected2.pdf

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleuth-d- View Post
    yep entirely possible. unless they can convince the judge that there were the screams that he must have heard, and knew they were from RS. at any time before shots 2, 3, and 4. surely, then the fear of intruders defence falls down.
    We just need another witness that heard the two lots of shots and Reeva screaming...where are they? Ngelethawa is a psychologist who lives right next door, perhaps he also had diminished capacity on the night and never heard a thing! Why on earth didn't Nel call him?...there must be a reason that I hope we get to find out.
    Again this makes me feel that the closest witnesses didn't need to be called as the state already had enough..that will come out..slowly.... to convict without them.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavel Rash View Post
    Your right if he is that sick yes he should be, however what if his mental state is a transient one exacerbated by stress, herbal testosterone, past trauma. This what Roux is trying to establish...making him appear uncontrolled, a driven man whose legless state has him cloaked in paranoia/emotional stress (mind you Oscar made the legless-ness so not a thing in his statements yesterday, it didnt help Roux) they can pull the

    'South African criminal law now accepts four sources or bases for incapacity: youth, mental
    illness or defect,intoxication,and severe emotional stress.'

    The defence of incapacity due to mental illness or defect is known as the insanity defence. The defence of incapacity due to severe
    emotional stress has come to be known as the defence of non-pathological criminal incapacity.1

    http://criminallaw101andbeyond.files...corrected2.pdf
    But the defense is not saying he's insane, just that he has certain mental issues that may account for some of the decisions he made that night. The judge will have to decide if this is true. There is a difference between a non-psychotic mental illness and a psychotic one. Psychosis causes a break from reality, no matter how it's brought on or why. Even if somehow his psychosis is stress induced, it is still psychosis. I can't see any judge or jury sentencing a man who has a genuinely delusional mental disorder to time in a gen. Pop. Prison where his illness will go untreated or holding him responsible for his actions when his sense of right and wrong are clouded by his disorder. I don't see how anyone who truly believes OP suffers from these things wouldn't feel at least a little sympathy for him.
    "He who introduces KY into the relationship is no abused virgin." - Aristotle


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavel Rash View Post
    We just need another witness that heard the two lots of shots and Reeva screaming...where are they? Ngelethawa is a psychologist who lives right next door, perhaps he also had diminished capacity on the night and never heard a thing! Why on earth didn't Nel call him?...there must be a reason that I hope we get to find out.
    Again this makes me feel that the closest witnesses didn't need to be called as the state already had enough..that will come out..slowly.... to convict without them.
    Well, he called security that night so he must have heard something.
    "He who introduces KY into the relationship is no abused virgin." - Aristotle

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeeBee View Post
    But the defense is not saying he's insane, just that he has certain mental issues that may account for some of the decisions he made that night. The judge will have to decide if this is true.
    Exactly.....'In terms of this provision, the accused may be suffering from some form of mental illness but the level of impairment experienced does not fulfil the
    requirements for the legal test of insanity. The pathology is then considered to
    be a mitigating factor in the degree of responsibility. A defence of diminished
    responsibility does not afford the accused complete exculpation, but may
    result in a reduced sentence instead of indefinite confinement to a state
    psychiatric hospital (Snyman, 2002)'

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavel Rash View Post
    Exactly.....'In terms of this provision, the accused may be suffering from some form of mental illness but the level of impairment experienced does not fulfil the
    requirements for the legal test of insanity. The pathology is then considered to
    be a mitigating factor in the degree of responsibility. A defence of diminished
    responsibility does not afford the accused complete exculpation, but may
    result in a reduced sentence instead of indefinite confinement to a state
    psychiatric hospital (Snyman, 2002)'
    Right, and schizophrenia or any other psychosis would certainly, without a doubt, 'fulfill the requirements for the legal test of insanity.'

    This bit of legal jargon being quoted is making a distinction between mental illnesses that may or may not impair responsibility, given various factors (sociopathy or any other personality disorder, PTSD, paranoia) and ones that definitely do (schizophrenia, psychosis, delusions, etc.)

    Totally different things.
    "He who introduces KY into the relationship is no abused virgin." - Aristotle

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    Zwiebel and others that have done updates continually throughout. THANKS!!!! so much. Catching up through reading when I couldn't live stream has been priceless.... so wonderful and appreciated.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeeBee View Post
    Right, and schizophrenia or any other psychosis would certainly, without a doubt, 'fulfill the requirements for the legal test of insanity.'

    This bit of legal jargon being quoted is making a distinction between mental illnesses that may or may not impair responsibility, given various factors (sociopathy or any other personality disorder, PTSD, paranoia) and ones that definitely do (schizophrenia, psychosis, delusions, etc.)

    Totally different things.
    And? They are two different things and although I was concerned his actions and his acts yesterday where indicative of someone who truly believed they where attacking an intruder and his paranoid stalker stories etc pointed to one who is suffering from more serious mental health issues..he is not insane....well he is in my book...but not by DSM....but he does fall into the class of diminished capacity because of his weirdness....if Roux and Oscar can pull it off. Or Nel can pull out the Go directly to Gaol card.

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