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  1. #1
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    Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

    Oscar Pistorius: South Africa gears up for its 'trial of the century'

    (CNN) -- He was one of South Africa's favorite sons, an amputee track star who defied all the odds and sprinted into the hearts of millions during the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. She was a staggering beauty with the brains to match, a law graduate and model whose star was on the rise.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/...trial-preview/



    Pistorius channel goes on air in South Africa

    http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306483/con...tguid=Ip4glGHn
    Watch live: Oscar Pistorius murder trial
    Follow events from Pretoria as paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius appears in court accused of murdering his girlfriend, the model Reeva Steenkamp.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...der-trial.html


    Links:

    Full Indictment-4 Counts-107 Witnesses

    http://www.scribd.com/embeds/1856954...endations=true

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...uling-20140225

    http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/D...bloid-20140228


    Twitter:

    https://twitter.com/oscartrial199

    https://twitter.com/GeraldImrayAP

    https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta

    Live Streaming:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_of...l-live-stream/

    http://mybroadband.co.za/news/intern...streaming.html

    http://www.702.co.za/shows/oscar_stream.asp

    http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch...r-trial-day-9/

    http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistorius2.htm

    Live News Feed

    http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Os...torius_trial_4

    Trial Video Archive:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_of...trial-archive/

    _________________________________________

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    Last edited by Harmony 2; 04-11-2014 at 08:42 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

    link link

    Continue discussion here...

  3. #3
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    This is a hypothetical what if. Bear with me please.

    What if there was an intruder who climbed up the ladder and in the bathroom window. When OP heard the window close, he grabbed Reeva and told her to hide beside the bed and call security. She is following his instructions. He gets his gun and goes down the passage to the bathroom yelling and screaming. He says nothing to the intruder. He believes the intruder to be in the toilet and hears a noise so he shoots 4 times in rapid succession. He hears no screaming.

    Reeva turns on the lights and brings the cricket bat to OP and he breaks the door. Lying dead on the floor is a 12 yr old girl.

    Under SA law, what do people think he is guilty of?


    All in my opinion only

  4. #4
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    I'm probably over thinking here but OP's insistence that she wasn't screaming.

    The only way he could have known that to be true is if he knew she was dead already.

  5. #5
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    "call the police!" says Oscar to Reeva, twice .. he whispers it, he shouts it....

    in his evidence in chief.. ( btw.. Oscar isn't a 'witness'. he is the accused..that's why his evidence, as opposed to all other testimonies is called the chief evidence) Oscar has stated a great deal about his doings with police, and his reluctance to report, involve, call upon , or in anyway consider the police as an organization of assistance.

    In varied situations, and in various moods of his.....not one of which had a good outcome for Oscar, due to various reasons, the times he has recalled of police in his life have been overwhelmingly negative..100% so far.. cant get more overwhelmingly negative than that. '


    He pays over the odds to live in a gated community with private security, precisely not to have a thing to do with the SAPS.. his own first call for help in an extreme situation was not to the police.. in fact he never called the police that night at all. He didn't instruct anyone else to call the police either.. not once.

    His evidence in chief went to rather surprising lengths to describe in detail about all police officers who ever had the misfortune, or the nerve to interrupt Oscar in his activities.. the Metro police who ' were not professional, who shouted at him, who lit a cigarette in front of him' ,.. the highway patrol officer who 'touched his gun! he touched my gun!.. the police who had the nerve to respond to a call and charged him with assault.....and so on..

    Yet... on one solitary occasion, when he claims he was in 'deep terror'.. on this one occasion only and no other , in his home, surrounded by patrolling security, a panic button, alarms, 2 dogs, armed with a Parabellum loaded with black talon bullets, he claims he instructed Reeva to 'call the police'.....twice...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by alioop View Post
    This is a hypothetical what if. Bear with me please.

    What if there was an intruder who climbed up the ladder and in the bathroom window. When OP heard the window close, he grabbed Reeva and told her to hide beside the bed and call security. She is following his instructions. He gets his gun and goes down the passage to the bathroom yelling and screaming. He says nothing to the intruder. He believes the intruder to be in the toilet and hears a noise so he shoots 4 times in rapid succession. He hears no screaming.

    Reeva turns on the lights and brings the cricket bat to OP and he breaks the door. Lying dead on the floor is a 12 yr old girl.

    Under SA law, what do people think he is guilty of?
    I still see it as murder. I'd still see it as murder if it was a 40 year old man, two 25 year old men. Even burglars have a right to life. In that scenario, both could be phoning the police first before he gets his gun.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by alioop View Post
    This is a hypothetical what if. Bear with me please.

    What if there was an intruder who climbed up the ladder and in the bathroom window. When OP heard the window close, he grabbed Reeva and told her to hide beside the bed and call security. She is following his instructions. He gets his gun and goes down the passage to the bathroom yelling and screaming. He says nothing to the intruder. He believes the intruder to be in the toilet and hears a noise so he shoots 4 times in rapid succession. He hears no screaming.

    Reeva turns on the lights and brings the cricket bat to OP and he breaks the door. Lying dead on the floor is a 12 yr old girl.

    Under SA law, what do people think he is guilty of?
    Under SA law you are only allowed to shoot in self defense if you believe yourself to be in mortal danger and you have no way to escape from an attacker.

    So my guess is premeditated murder. Premeditated because you had the presence of mind to get the gun, point it and shoot it four times. Once may be an accident, but not four times.

    http://www.dutoitattorneys.com/legal...1/self-defense

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by alioop View Post
    This is a hypothetical what if. Bear with me please.

    What if there was an intruder who climbed up the ladder and in the bathroom window. When OP heard the window close, he grabbed Reeva and told her to hide beside the bed and call security. She is following his instructions. He gets his gun and goes down the passage to the bathroom yelling and screaming. He says nothing to the intruder. He believes the intruder to be in the toilet and hears a noise so he shoots 4 times in rapid succession. He hears no screaming.

    Reeva turns on the lights and brings the cricket bat to OP and he breaks the door. Lying dead on the floor is a 12 yr old girl.

    Under SA law, what do people think he is guilty of?
    you could add that this hypothetical 12 yr old girl is in the school uniform of St. Mary's Diocesan School for Girls, Pretoria, just to add to the dilemma.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shane13 View Post
    ON the Premeditated Murder Charge

    I am not an atty, but am going on what Nel has said.

    Now some say this is so hard to prove or win on. But again from Nel, what I think is his case is the following.

    Oscar & Reeva had that loud argument for an hour or so leading into the shooting. But when they were in the bedtoom arguing, it escalated (either just verbally or possibly with a minor assault) and Reeva fled to the loo.

    At that point State alleges, Oscar could have done many other things,
    such as break up with her and tell her to leave, go watch TV, take a drug or homeopathic remedy, go for a drive, go to shooting range, etc. etc.

    But instead he "chose" to get his gun and go after her in the other room to kill her. The PM charge only needs minutes or even seconds to be a "plan" to kill. And it exists here because OP could have done all those other things when Reeva went to escape him and hide.

    That's the gist of it.
    But there is another aspect, a few of us discussed a year ago here, that given Reeva's nature of never wanting to argue or such, she may have been held captive and prevented from leaving--hence the hour long intense arguing which was against her nature, basically all who knew have said. Indeed I might speculate that the locked bedroom door Oscar cites could have been to prevent Reeva from leaving. (If it works that way.)
    I have long pondered possible/likely scenarios which would result in the crime and I have also come to a similar conclusion.

    It is based upon previous experience, human nature, past behaviours, character studies, logic and the limited evidence.

    I do think that the evening of Feb 13th was a major row and it had been brewing for a few weeks. It escalated to a new level though there had been signs that threats and violent bursts of anger were possible, likely not directed at RS herself until that night but at objects or excessive speeding, other signs of a dangerous temper and loss of self control.
    For whatever reason, the actual triggers for this major row are private - no known evidence at this point (relationships are not catalogued perfectly and chronologically in media and software data, especially someone like OP who has already stated that he prefers to talk in person or by phone).
    The trigger is extremely likely to be jealousy, possibly exacerbated by unknown personal, financial or relationship issues. It escalated into a dangerous and physical confrontation, mostly upstairs (damage to bedroom door) and OP feared the repurcussions this time as he'd gone much further than previous flash points, both in this and previous relationships.
    It was the end, not just another OP tantrum but this time a life changing event. He panicked, totally flipped and kept RS captive in the bathroom area (much damage, jeans out of window) for a period of up to 1 hour after 2am.
    I believe that it was him who forced her into the toilet and separated her from her phone which was the biggest threat to OP at that point. He was only killing time for the moment.
    He tormented her, threatened her and this continued berating and humiliation ultimately ended in a complete loss of control due to her continued petrified screaming (fear of alerting neighbours) and he murdered her in cold-blood at around 3am.
    His mythical intruder story may even have been invented and planned during that final traumatic hour and perhaps was the final bit of madness/confidence to take out all his anger, fulfil a thrill seeking gun nuts wet dream and fire those four shots through the door into his now ex-girlfriend.

  10. #10
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    There was a perfect storm of emotion inducing things that night, among them Valentine's Day, OP's "hurdle", and RS's Tropika Island gig airing on Feb. 16.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmony2 View Post
    link link

    Continue discussion here...
    Yes!!! Finally the two things that I enjoy consuming, alcoholic beverages and no carbs meats and veggies, in no particular order BTW. Thanks Harmony.

  12. #12
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    what a pity Oscar couldn't appropriate Darrin Fresco's miracle gun, the one that actually fires without touching the trigger ... I'm surprised he handed it back to Fresco..

    With that gun, he'd be utterly invincible in any situation... there is every likelihood he could make that particular gun move itself to the bathroom, and fire at will with thought direction.

    Considering the capacities of that one-off astonishing piece of equipment, it's truly a miracle that Darrin Fresco himself is around , alive, breathing, speaking , to give testimony... lucky Darrin, ey?
    Last edited by Trooper; 04-11-2014 at 11:18 PM.

  13. #13
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    Did OP deactivate the alarm in a deliberate attempt to stop Reeva alerting security?
    He says he deactivated it before he went downstairs to open the door.

    "I was not aware of any malfunction of my alarm in 2013," says Pistorius, who says he deactivated it before going downstairs to open the door. Nel seizes on this saying, saying he is changing the evidence as he goes along.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-live-11-april

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueDetective View Post
    I have long pondered possible/likely scenarios which would result in the crime and I have also come to a similar conclusion.

    It is based upon previous experience, human nature, past behaviours, character studies, logic and the limited evidence.

    I do think that the evening of Feb 13th was a major row and it had been brewing for a few weeks. It escalated to a new level though there had been signs that threats and violent bursts of anger were possible, likely not directed at RS herself until that night but at objects or excessive speeding, other signs of a dangerous temper and loss of self control.
    For whatever reason, the actual triggers for this major row are private - no known evidence at this point (relationships are not catalogued perfectly and chronologically in media and software data, especially someone like OP who has already stated that he prefers to talk in person or by phone).
    The trigger is extremely likely to be jealousy, possibly exacerbated by unknown personal, financial or relationship issues. It escalated into a dangerous and physical confrontation, mostly upstairs (damage to bedroom door) and OP feared the repurcussions this time as he'd gone much further than previous flash points, both in this and previous relationships.
    It was the end, not just another OP tantrum but this time a life changing event. He panicked, totally flipped and kept RS captive in the bathroom area (much damage, jeans out of window) for a period of up to 1 hour after 2am.
    I believe that it was him who forced her into the toilet and separated her from her phone which was the biggest threat to OP at that point. He was only killing time for the moment.
    He tormented her, threatened her and this continued berating and humiliation ultimately ended in a complete loss of control due to her continued petrified screaming (fear of alerting neighbours) and he murdered her in cold-blood at around 3am.
    His mythical intruder story may even have been invented and planned during that final traumatic hour and perhaps was the final bit of madness/confidence to take out all his anger, fulfil a thrill seeking gun nuts wet dream and fire those four shots through the door into his now ex-girlfriend.
    Wow, I was responding to someone in the now closed thread with somewhat similar.

    In one scenario I can envision,

    They started arguing downstairs where RS had gone to grab a snack because she couldn't sleep(it was pretty early to go to bed... by 10pm especially the night before Valentine's and OP had a dentist appt the next morning iirc so he may have had a toothache and not been in the mood) because of something OP saw on her ipad/cell upstairs and RS threatened to leave saying she had friends too and a life of her own and he would have to accept that if he wanted to be with her, just like she had to learn to accept his life and past.

    They argued, RS ran upstairs to pack her stuff closing the bedroom door, OP came up and the door may have been stuck whereupon he broke it open. At that point, scared of him and now screaming in fear, RS fled to the bath room, cell in hand, threatening to call the police, but OP chased and caught up with her in the bath room, there was an altercation and OP got her cell then pushed her into the toilet room and locked the door on her while he tried to search her cell for evidence of cheating/whatever discovering she had a pass code on it.

    That really angered him imo and they had a screaming match about it through the door with her calling for help and OP mocking her. Losing control OP went and got his bat and tried to "convince" her to give him the pass code. Now RS was desperately screaming in fear(possibly reliving her past episode of an intruder, a real one) and OP furious now as he realized the neighbour's lights were coming on and his actions would be revealed to the world(he was still trying to shut up the last incident, at great expense), ran to get his gun and came back to shut her up. Seeing him through the splintered part of the door and not believing he'd actually shoot her RS stood at the door begging him to calm down when he started shooting.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by soozieqtips View Post
    Did OP deactivate the alarm in a deliberate attempt to stop Reeva alerting security?
    He says he deactivated it before he went downstairs to open the door.

    "I was not aware of any malfunction of my alarm in 2013," says Pistorius, who says he deactivated it before going downstairs to open the door. Nel seizes on this saying, saying he is changing the evidence as he goes along.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-live-11-april
    I realize I come across as dismissing anything that OP says as being false, and I do! But he must have some really elaborate security system. You can even turn it on and set it to where it doesn't go off even if the patio doors are open and the bathroom window is open!

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