Interesting ...

capps · May 31, 2005

Here is an excerpt that I read at the site "Crime Magazine"

This is not verbatom.

PR ws apparently concerned enough about some aspect of JB's or BR's moral compass that she mentioned her concern to her father. He gave her the 1992 book "Why Johnny Can't Tell Right From Wrong" by William Kirkpatrick,she told the police.

From the book:
" Our present culture sends out confusing and misleading messages about sex. The result being;when kids are confronted by adults over sexual misbehaviors,a frequent response is "I didn't know it was wrong."

The police did not ask Patsy during the interview what had prompted her father to give her the book.

Although Det. Thomas claims that a police photograph from the day of the "kidnapping" showed a dictionary opened to a page that had the word "incest".

Investigators did not ask the Ramsey's to explain this.

This is an article by Ryan Ross in the "Crime Magazine" site. If true .. I thought it very interesting.

I always fought the idea that there may have been sexual implications from inside the immediate family (maybe from the outside);but now I just don't know.

tipper · May 31, 2005

We've discussed this book before. It may be somewhere in the archives.

I don't think it has anything to do with Burke and sexual abuse.

As I recall it's about education and since we know Patsy was interested in the quality of her children's schools it would make sense she would be interested in books like this.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0671870734/ref=cm_rev_sort/104-5265468-3317559?customer-reviews.sort_by=%2BOverallRating&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&x=6&y=9

Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly
Attacking the moral relativism of such current approaches to the teaching of ethics as Values Clarification, Kilpatrick, an education professor at Boston College, calls for a return to a traditional model of teaching morality based on content rather than decision making. In tracing the history of character education, he dissects the moral reasoning curriculum of Harvard psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg and the feminist theories of Carol Gilligan. He suggests that schools should become more authoritative and that parents should discipline their children and read to them (he includes a lengthy, annotated Guide to Great Books for Children and Teens). His jeremiad hits the mark when aimed at ambiguous approaches to drug and sex education. But with his more general assertions--such as, in a discussion of rap and rock music, The beat says, 'Do what you want to do,' --Kilpatrick fails to convince. Author tour.
Copyright 1992 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Product Details

Toltec · May 31, 2005

Thanks Capp for bringing up the book. I do recall reading somewhere that Patsy was asked about the book and she responded that her father gave it to her but wasn't pressed further on the subject. Too bad...an opportunity wasted.

I have never considered John Ramsey ever hurting his precious JonBenet....

The April 3, 2001 issue of the NE got an EXCLUSIVE interview from none other than John and Patsy Ramsey! Here's an excert...

During the ENQUIROR interview, Patsy admitted she considered and rejected the possibility that John was sexually abusing JonBenet. She openly admitted that during her struggle to defeat ovarian cancer between 1993 and 1994, John and Patsy's sex life suffered. She totally rejects the notion of John abusing JonBenet, but her reasoning is odd.

She said her mother "came to take care of the kids (when I had cancer). She slept in the other bed in JonBenet's room. I mean, if John was coming in to molest JonBenet, you know that's not going to happen 'cause Grandma was right there every night."

********************************************

Could the book that Grandpa Paugh gave Patsy had been about John and JonBenet?

capps · May 31, 2005

Thanks Tipper and Toltec for your replies.

Tipper,

True ... it can be some thing as innocent as PR wanting to look into better educating,and I hope that's all it was.

But .. there was a murder of a six year old girl which seems to have sexual implications that can't be ruled out. As sleuthers we have to look at all angles.

My highest hope (for lack of a better phrase); would be that poor JB was randomly murdered by an outsider not known to family or friends.But the more one delves into the crime,the more it seems to steer away from that theory.

One thing I can agree on that JR said: "There is no victory."

LazyCat08 · Jun 2, 2005

http://crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-main.htm

I just read most of this 2003 article mentioned above, although be already know 90% of the info put forth it does bring up some interesting issues....especially pointing towards an accident and Ramsey cover-up, definitely worth reading....

texaslb218 · Jun 3, 2005

Brie said:
http://crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-main.htm

I just read most of this 2003 article mentioned above, although be already know 90% of the info put forth it does bring up some interesting issues....especially pointing towards an accident and Ramsey cover-up, definitely worth reading....

Thanks for the reference. I read it with great interest.

tipper · Jun 3, 2005

I have reservations about the judgement of anyone who relies heavily on Steve Thomas' opinions.

texaslb218 · Jun 3, 2005

tipper said:
I have reservations about the judgement of anyone who relies heavily on Steve Thomas' opinions.

I understand. I am 1/2 way through the PMPT book and can see the self-serving statements. But I am so new the inside details, not like you all, that I enjoy reading many references.

I am so disgusted by the mishandling of this. I don't know if I believe anyone will ever be held responsible for this little girl's murder. I don't know if we will ever have a definitive statement of the truth.

I believe the family knows the truth. IMO

tipper · Jun 3, 2005

I had to read PMPT twice. The first time I was so distracted by all the infighting and unbelievable behavior of Boulder LE that I more or less missed the murder info.

Then I read ST's book. I was quite prepared to believe the parents were guilty but he tries too hard, includes too many petty comments, and makes too many glib assumptions unsupported by any facts or evidence i.e. Patsy was upset about turning 40, Patsy was angry about the bedwetting, Patsy was overly fixated on the pageants, Patsy flew into a rage, JonBenet was rebelling, . Nowhere did I see facts quoted to back up any of this. If he had really had a case he could have just laid it out and not included the gossipy, sneering attitude. Have you read his deposition? It gives a very different picture of his actual knowledge of the case.

Obviously DOI was written from the Ramseys point-of-view. But several of the things they said rang true as to how victims would feel. The fatigue, the lack of memory for events, the feeling that one cant really trust anyone, even friends, while at the same time feeling that despite the fear one needs to move on in as normal a manner as possible for the sake of the surviving child(ren). These are all the feelings of genuine victims.

Personally I think it was someone who had peripheral knowledge of the family (perhaps including gossip about his 1995 bonus amount), had worked in the house (including the basement), had access to a key, knew their plans, and entered the house shortly after they left for the Whites. I recently read that LHPs daughter and son-in-law helped bring Christmas trees up from the wine-cellar in late November. I am curious what their (or his) alibi was and how BPD cleared them.

texaslb218 · Jun 3, 2005

Tipper,
I really thank you for your informative reply. I am a very good reader and I feel like I am slogging through this book. There is SO MUCH information about territorialities and jealousy that it is hard for me to keep the FACTIONS straight. It is also hard to keep their agendas straight. I will continue. No, I haven't read any of the court documents. As you can tell by my number of posts, I just got interested a while ago. I have been glued to the Peterson East and Peterson West and Routier cases.
Thanks again. I will follow up.

capps · Jun 3, 2005

Tipper,

I agree with your way of thinking in your fourth paragraph.

I also believe it is someone that we don't expect. A business associate of John's? A friend who was jealous of the Ramsey's (in their mind) perfect life style?

But ... there's no denying the Ramsey's are being evasive for a reason,more so than just grieving parents. And that's where I'm stuck. Could the perp be some one who is powerful enough to cause a backlash? Fear for the rest of the family? Maybe it would open up the floodgates for something else,and can put John in prison for some sort of inappropiate business dealings?

The ransom note to me is a "John you don't know exactly who I am.but I'm giving you enough information to know I am some one who knows your inner information ... I'm close enough to you. I don't like you ...and you can't touch me." I think John has a pretty good idea of who it is ... and for some reason,he is not talking.

Toltec · Jun 3, 2005

capps said:
Tipper,

I agree with your way of thinking in your fourth paragraph.

I also believe it is someone that we don't expect. A business associate of John's? A friend who was jealous of the Ramsey's (in their mind) perfect life style?

But ... there's no denying the Ramsey's are being evasive for a reason,more so than just grieving parents. And that's where I'm stuck. Could the perp be some one who is powerful enough to cause a backlash? Fear for the rest of the family? Maybe it would open up the floodgates for something else,and can put John in prison for some sort of inappropiate business dealings?

The ransom note to me is a "John you don't know exactly who I am.but I'm giving you enough information to know I am some one who knows your inner information ... I'm close enough to you. I don't like you ...and you can't touch me." I think John has a pretty good idea of who it is ... and for some reason,he is not talking.

As I've stated before in another thread...Patsy wrote the note and she directed her anger at John for whatever reason/s. Patsy was "scared" of John and in the book DOI she says so.

This was not a normal Christian family....noooo, my belief is that John Ramsey was/is a tyrant and ran that house with an iron fist. Don't get me wrong, I do not believe he ever hurt the children but did direct his anger and frustrations at Patsy.

bensmom98 · Jun 3, 2005

Toltec said:
As I've stated before in another thread...Patsy wrote the note and she directed her anger at John for whatever reason/s. Patsy was "scared" of John and in the book DOI she says so.

Where does she say that she is afraid of him and what is the context?

Thank you

Seeker · Jun 3, 2005

The book is not just about education tipper. It's more about morality and how our system (not just educational) is failing our kids. The title really gives the major clue to the content.
WHY JOHNNY CAN'T TELL RIGHT FROM WRONG: AND WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT IT
Here is a list of the chapters so you can see it is not just about the school system or the education kids recieve in school.

Chapters
1 The Crisis in Moral Education
2 Drug Education
3 Sex Education
4 How Not to Teach Morality
5 A History Lesson
6 Moral Illiteracy
7 Vision and Virtue
8 Morality Makes Strange Bedfellows
9 Beauty and the Beasts
10 Music and Morality
11 Life Is a Story
12 Myth Wars
13 What Schools Can Do
14 What Parents Can Do

This book deals with morals and ethics and how to help teach your kids what they are and what they should be. (i.e. Sex should be a private matter and because you really love each other, it is not just an indoor sport. There are consequences, etc.)

From actual reviews of the book by the people who have read it.

In recent years, a plethora of books, many of them excellent reading, have been published on the decline of moral ethics and intellectual knowledge, both in our educational establishment and within society at large. However, if one wants to focus specifically on the decline of moral discipline on the modern American scene, one could do worse than to read _Why_Johnny_Can't_Tell_Right_from_Wrong_ by William Kilpatrick .

If you are disturbed by the erosion of morality in this country, then read this book. Do you wonder about the effectiveness of drug prevention programs? Do you suspect that sex education actually increases sexual activity and pregnancy among teens? Well, it does, and the author tells how and why, in an objective, clear way.

The problems that most children exhibit are not due to "blocked feelings" or an overly strict conscience. Rather, by virtue of their age, most children have underdeveloped consciences. It is our job, as adults, to strengthen children's characters, rather than assume they have some "innate wisdom" that will automatically lead them to do what is right.

I feel strongly that if the dictionary in the Ramsey home was indeed dog-eared to the word "incest" it was Burke looking it up to see what the word meant, or one of the parenets looking it up to show him the meaning of the word. I'm quite sure that Patsy and John (both educated) already knew the meaning and had no need to look it up for themselves. JonBenet wouldn't know how to spell that word, or need to know what it meant at 6 years old IMO.

Miss Daisey · Jun 3, 2005

capps said:
I also believe it is someone that we don't expect. A business associate of John's? A friend who was jealous of the Ramsey's (in their mind) perfect life style?

The ransom note to me is a "John you don't know exactly who I am.but I'm giving you enough information to know I am some one who knows your inner information ... I'm close enough to you. I don't like you ...and you can't touch me." I think John has a pretty good idea of who it is ... and for some reason,he is not talking.

I agree, capps

Anyone could invade that house. Especially, someone on a mission of revenge...or simply a killer that watched and stalked the family and JonBenet.

Start with entry. Someone (as Smit demonstrated) could enter through the broken window in the train room...push open the door and replace the chair that was placed against it...have easy access to the entire house...either while the family was away or while they slept. Then exit through the front door that automatically locked behind them. Simple...and without detection. They could have done it numerous times before the murder.

I agree the ransom note reads with so much personal information that it's difficult to imagine that the author DIDN'T know a lot about the Ramseys. Except for the part about "southern common sense". Had the author really been that close to the family, he would have known that John is not from the South.

I'm guessing...just guessing....that this murder had a purpose, an intent beyond murder and with a message to John. JonBenet was not viciously raped. She certainly was sexually violated...her body left inside the home with a note left to add time for escape..or to point the finger at John. He may have an idea who it was...maybe not. He may be just as stimied as we are.

Until there is evidence revealed that the Ramseys are responsible for JB's death...or BR.. with them covering it up...there's enough circumstantial evidence of the perp being an intruder. We just have to identify him. IMO, identifing the DNA will lead to that discovery.

tipper · Jun 3, 2005

Seeker said:
The book is not just about education tipper. It's more about morality and how our system (not just educational) is failing our kids. The title really gives the major clue to the content.
WHY JOHNNY CAN'T TELL RIGHT FROM WRONG: AND WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT IT
Here is a list of the chapters so you can see it is not just about the school system or the education kids recieve in school.

Chapters
1 The Crisis in Moral Education
2 Drug Education
3 Sex Education
4 How Not to Teach Morality
5 A History Lesson
6 Moral Illiteracy
7 Vision and Virtue
8 Morality Makes Strange Bedfellows
9 Beauty and the Beasts
10 Music and Morality
11 Life Is a Story
12 Myth Wars
13 What Schools Can Do
14 What Parents Can Do

This book deals with morals and ethics and how to help teach your kids what they are and what they should be. (i.e. Sex should be a private matter and because you really love each other, it is not just an indoor sport. There are consequences, etc.)

[...]

I feel strongly that if the dictionary in the Ramsey home was indeed dog-eared to the word "incest" it was Burke looking it up to see what the word meant, or one of the parenets looking it up to show him the meaning of the word. I'm quite sure that Patsy and John (both educated) already knew the meaning and had no need to look it up for themselves. JonBenet wouldn't know how to spell that word, or need to know what it meant at 6 years old IMO.

I think, given what we know about Patsy and John's readings when Beth died and during Patsy's cancer, if Burke were behaving inappropriately there would have been a whole shelf full of books like "Why Johnny Can't Keep His Hands Off His Sister" and others of that ilk. Instead we have a single book, given to them, about the moral relativism being taught in schools today.

Also, who in the world marks a single word with the point of a page? Why would she do it? "Ok Burke, next time you get the urge to grope your sister, run to this dictionary; see I've marked the page AND the word 'incest', and read the definition." Or if Burke looked it up himself, why would he mark it. Dictionaries are alphabetical so you can easily find something again and again. It makes no sense and given that the source is Thomas, I wouldn't bet a packet that it is actually true as stated.

texaslb218 · Jun 3, 2005

OK....I have FINALLY finished PMPT! Now I am really mad! I don't how to sort all that info. Where do I read about the GJ findings? Does ST have cred? Please point me to some more credible info. TIA

tipper · Jun 3, 2005

texaslb218 said:
OK....I have FINALLY finished PMPT! Now I am really mad! I don't how to sort all that info. Where do I read about the GJ findings? Does ST have cred? Please point me to some more credible info. TIA

There isn't much on the GJ. I would suggest you go to this link:
http://www.realsundancekid.com/

and read the various depositions by the principals. At least there they have sworn to tell the truth. The transcripts are also interesting but less reliable as to truth.

acandyrose.com used to have tons of information but now it seems like everytime I look for something there the links no longer work.

Personally I want to have outside confirmation of whatever ST says. As you will see in his depo, he has on occasion cleverly worded something to imply one thing when the opposite was in fact true. If possible, read the deposition before you read his book. I'm sure when he wrote the book he never expected to be deposed and then he fought very hard to have the deposition sealed.

Forgot to say - You can also read about the case at crimelibrary.com. It's pro-Ramsey but my recollection is the original coverage they had was anti-Ramsey so I guess it all evens out.

LazyCat08 · Jun 4, 2005

tipper said:
I have reservations about the judgement of anyone who relies heavily on Steve Thomas' opinions.

Um I don't recall anyone saying they rely heavily on anything....
No need to get personal....

tipper · Jun 4, 2005

Brie said:
Um I don't recall anyone saying they rely heavily on anything....
No need to get personal....

Not getting personal, I'm talking about the author of the Crime Magazine article. He frequently refers to ST.

Interesting ...

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