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  1. #1
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    Trial Discussion Thread #30

    Oscar Pistorius: South Africa gears up for its 'trial of the century'

    (CNN) -- He was one of South Africa's favorite sons, an amputee track star who defied all the odds and sprinted into the hearts of millions during the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. She was a staggering beauty with the brains to match, a law graduate and model whose star was on the rise.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/...trial-preview/



    Pistorius channel goes on air in South Africa

    http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306483/con...tguid=Ip4glGHn
    Watch live: Oscar Pistorius murder trial
    Follow events from Pretoria as paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius appears in court accused of murdering his girlfriend, the model Reeva Steenkamp.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...der-trial.html


    Links:

    Full Indictment-4 Counts-107 Witnesses

    http://www.scribd.com/embeds/1856954...endations=true

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...uling-20140225

    http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/D...bloid-20140228


    Twitter:

    https://twitter.com/oscartrial199

    https://twitter.com/GeraldImrayAP

    https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta

    Live Streaming:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_of...l-live-stream/

    http://mybroadband.co.za/news/intern...streaming.html

    http://www.702.co.za/shows/oscar_stream.asp

    http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch...r-trial-day-9/

    http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistorius2.htm

    Live News Feed

    http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Os...torius_trial_4

    Trial Video Archive:

    http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_of...trial-archive/

    _________________________________________

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    Last edited by Harmony2; 04-20-2014 at 12:28 AM.

  2. #2
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    Trial Discussion Thread #30

    link
    link

    Continue discussion here...
    Last edited by Harmony2; 04-20-2014 at 12:39 AM.

  3. #3
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    Just wanted to say thanks to Torismom003
    For the YouTube link to Mrs Stipp's testimony and clarification about the toilet light being on.
    I can see what she meant about wanting to treasure her sanity . I am only part way through session 1 and am already feeling stressed.
    It makes me realise why some people might not want to testify in trials and I admire those that do .Whilst I understand why it is done it must be really awful having someone trying to discredit you.

  4. #4
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    CARRIED OVER FROM PREVIOUS THREAD

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by james83 View Post
    The Stipps position related to the bathroom has a lot to do with it imo.
    I disagree with you main point, imo it's just not possible that all those people would fail to hear gunfire, but then all hear a bat hitting a door , it's not plausible at all.

    Feynman-
    The Stipps are on a direct line to the bathroom. If Dr. Stipp, with all of his military and gun training, can mistake bat bangs for gunshots, then anyone can. (We already know, by the way, that Estelle van der Merwe mistook OP's crying for a woman crying.) Are you disputing the idea that Dr. Stipp (and hence Mrs. Stipp) was mistaken in this regard? If you are, then it follows you must believe that all the loud bangs heard by Stipp were gunshots. But even the state does not say that. Why would you believe such a thing?
    Carried over from the last thread from Feynman



    Firstly i feel like a lot of words were put into my mouth here, at which point did i say i thought all the bangs were gunshot's?, the basic fact of the point i am making is is it plausible that the Burger's, Van Der Merwe and Nhlengthwa all heard a bat hitting a door but failed to hear gunshot's?, logically is that likely?.
    I would say it's more likely Stipp would mistake the first set of sound's as gunshot's due to the fact they woke him up.
    Also There is a vast difference between mistaking a male crying for a female crying than doing the same with screaming, if someone is sobbing there heart out i can see how it would be difficult to tell what sex they were on sound alone, a blood curdling female scream is a sound a man can not make.

  5. #5
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    Happy Easter everybody! Have a wonderful day with your family and friends.

    Visit my blog at: www.juror13lw.wordpress.com

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by lisasalinger View Post
    Happy Easter everybody! Have a wonderful day with your family and friends.

    Same to you and thanks for all the work you put in on your blog .
    It has saved me so much stress as I have been able to skip a lot of the trial live which is excruciating at times and read instead.

  7. #7
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    Good morning to all you true sleuthers.

    Want something important to sleuth on here and now?

  8. #8
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    Just making a note her of something that I have mentioned before about Mrs stipp's testimony that interests me .
    She clearly states that there was the constant screaming of a woman after what she describes as the first shots .
    She then goes on to say that during the screaming the screaming seemed to be getting closer to her so much so that she thought someone must be running down their road.
    I have a feeling this will be mentioned in Nel's closing arguments as this may be why he thought that Reeva ran to the bathroom screaming after some sort of altercation .
    It also confuses me though because that indicates that she wasn't in the toilet when we thought it was been hit by the cricket bat .
    Just when I think this case can't get anymore perplexing it does .
    Will need to trust in Nel to pull it all together.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gbtaketwo View Post
    Just making a note her of something that I have mentioned before about Mrs stipp's testimony that interests me .
    She clearly states that there was the constant screaming of a woman after what she describes as the first shots .
    She then goes on to say that during the screaming the screaming seemed to be getting closer to her so much so that she thought someone must be running down their road.
    I have a feeling this will be mentioned in Nel's closing arguments as this may be why he thought that Reeva ran to the bathroom screaming after some sort of altercation .
    Morning all.
    Just wondering... Could the first shots possibly have been air rifle shots?
    Does anyone know how loud air rifle shots are, in comparison to bats on door?
    We are speculating that the hole in the bedroom door might be an air rifle shot but could there have been multiple air rifle shots?
    And what about the 5th cartridge (pistol)? Is there any evidence at all where this 5th shot was fired and at what stage?
    Could the hole in the bedroom door be the 5th shot?
    If the 5th cartridge was found in/near bathroom could Oscar have used his trip upstairs to move the cartridge there so as to take focus off bedroom door
    Not that he needed to worry, it's hardly been mentioned.
    Bit confused with above, any ideas?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueDetective View Post
    Could the first shots possibly have been air rifle shots?
    Does anyone know how loud air rifle shots are, in comparison to bats on door?
    We are speculating that the hole in the bedroom door might be an air rifle shot but could there have been multiple air rifle shots?
    And what about the 5th cartridge (pistol)? Is there any evidence at all where this 5th shot was fired and at what stage?
    Could the hole in the bedroom door be the 5th shot?
    If the 5th cartridge was found in/near bathroom could Oscar have used his trip upstairs to move the cartridge there so as to take focus off bedroom door
    Not that he needed to worry, it's hardly been mentioned.
    Bit confused with above, any ideas?
    I really don't know what to think . I am not sure whether it was a slip of the tongue about a fifth cartridge. Some believe it would have been corrected on the record if it weren't true .
    I think the air rifle had a silencer on .
    Do you know where the fifth cartridge was supposed to have been found ?


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by shane13 View Post
    Good morning to all you true sleuthers.

    Want something important to sleuth on here and now?
    OK then.


    More On the .38 ammo Oscar had in his safe--which someone took from the crime scene ©Shane13

    Again this is a serious crime both for whoever took it, and for whichever COP gave it to apparently, Carl, Aimee, Arnold, or Oldwage. It is implied a very high level cop. But this is speculation.

    One of the reasons I keep citing the things removed and/or given to shall we say "Initial Defense Team'. [I like this term I just coined, so I will use it and abbreviate it as IDT] is that since we know of 2 crucial items of evidence that were taken/given to IDT, is it not reasonable to assume that other items may have also been taken by/given to IDT?

    And these may be even more crucial to OP, and so these theoretical items have not been cited by anyone.

    Now the first thing that comes to mind that may have been taken by IDT relates to one of the items that we know was taken. The item taken is the .38 ammo, and we know that Oscar tried to pin the rap on his dad, Henke. Henke refused to take the rap. I conclude that perhaps Oscar had another gun at home, that he had no license to own.

    Now especially when you consider Oscar’s state of mind, he could always have thought to himself, what if my one and only gun jammed? I must have a 2nd gun at home.

    And if he had a .38 revolver, could he have used it either before at home if he “lost it’ at the mo, or even possibly that fateful night?

    And its existence has possibly been covered up by both sides.

    It was actually Det. Botha who cited the .38 ammo being taken and that earlier top cop(s) allowed Carl and Oldwage all over the crime scene. So as usual with the MSM, the one they cite as “no good in many ways” may actauilly have said and done things that have forced the revelation of items removed from the crime scene. He may be a hero in some ways.

    My main point here I raise is the possility that .38 ammo was there because it might have accompanied a .38 revolver. And the latter--if it was in OP’s home--has long ago been dispatched to a Black Hole. [Again speculation and logic, no proof of course. Damn Black Holes.]
    Last edited by shane13; 04-20-2014 at 05:06 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by shane13 View Post
    OK then, I'll take the 2 thank yous as a yes.


    More On the .38 ammo Oscar had in his safe--which someone took from the crime scene ©Shane13

    Again this is a serious crime both for whoever took it, and for whichever COP gave it to apparently, Carl, Aimee, Arnold, or Oldwage. It is implied a very high level cop. But this is speculation.

    One of the reasons I keep citing the things removed and/or given to shall we say "Initial Defense Team'. [I like this term I just coined, so I will use it and abbreviate it as IDT] is that since we know of 2 crucial items of evidence that were taken/given to IDT, is it not reasonable to assume that other items may have also be taken/given to IDT?

    And these may be even more crucial to OP, and so these theoretical items have not been cited by anyone.

    Now the first thing that comes to mind that may have been taken by IDT relates to one of the items that was taken. The item taken is the .38 ammo, and we know that Oscar tried to pin the rap on his dad, Henke. Henke refused to take the rap. I conclude that perhaps Oscar had another gun at home, that he had no license to own.

    Now especially when you consider Oscar’s state of mind, he could always have thought to himself, what if my one and only gun jammed? I must have a 2nd one at home.

    And if he had a .38 revolver, could he have used it either before at home if he “lost it’ at the mo, or even possibly that fateful night?

    And its existence has possibly been covered up by both sides.

    It was actually Det. Botha who cited the .38 ammo being taken and that earlier top cop(s) allowed Carl and Oldwage all over the crime scene. So as usual with the MSM, the one they cite as “no good in many ways” may actauilly have said and done things that have forced the revelation of items removed from the crime scene. He may be a hero in some ways.

    Muymain point here I raise is the possility that .38 ammo was there because it might have accompanied a .38 revolver. And the latter if it was in OP’s home has long ago been dispatched to a Black Hole. [Again speculation and logic, no proof of course. Damn Black Holes.]
    Some interesting points raised her.
    I guess we will never find out the full truth .
    Bearing in mind Oscar went upstairs on his own after the shooting while Dr Stipp's was checking over Reeva there are any number of things he could have done ,moved or concealed . I always felt that too many people had access to the house that night .There may be some charges brought after this trial with regard to the removal of the phone. With regard to the ammunition if it was removed with the consent of a police officer then I guess they can't now do anything about that except deal with the officer who agreed to it maybe.
    He also allowed them to take a dongle from the safe and goodness knows what might have been on that . If it had information regarding offshore accounts then it should not have been released because his financial status and flight risk was a factor in being granted bail.
    With regard to Botha I can't help but think that the charges that were suddenly brought against him may be unfair so will follow this where I can .

  13. #13
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    Good morning from Cape Town.

    A very Happy Easter to all those who celebrate it.

    I'm not sure if the following issues have been brought up before, as being a newbie I'm struggling to catch up on previous threads (they move terribly fast), and issues that have been mentioned (or not).

    1. The fact that the state WILL apply to re-open it's case as soon as the DT's psychiatrist and psychologist has testified. For this reason Professor Gerard Labuschagne (The head of the SAPS Investigative Psychology Unit) has been taking notes faster I can type from his position directly behind Gerrie. (Bronwyn Stollarz performed this function on the days Prof Labuschagne was not there)

    I also believe that the state already had thoughts about applying to re-open as soon as Dixon took the stand. Gerrie did allude to this. After Wolmarans's evidence (ballistician for the defense) I think there will be further grounds ro re-open and rebut.

    But most definitely after the psychiatrist/psychologist.

    2. Wollie Wolmarans, the DT's ballistic expert (whilst a rather respected ballistician) did find himself up against it in a previous case. A Cape Town night club owner shot a 'street kid' and Wolmarans's evidence was designed to 'prove' that the accused HAD NOT FIRED THE FATAL SHOT. He failed in this, and the accused was convicted of murder.
    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Ne...-shot-20070306

    For those who found Col Vermeulen to be a 'bumbling' witness, I can honestly say that this was in part due to language and disastrous interpretation issues. If Vermeulen struggled with English - I do believe that Wolmarans is going to come across as Dixon on roids. As he is next to testify for the DT, I am certain the DT might suggest a 'different' interpreter. He can not afford to testify in English. Fact.

    3. Re: Putative self defense in SA Law. In SA Case law, ALL previous putative self defense offerings have involved some sort of interaction between the accused and the 'perceived aggressor'.
    (A silly example I know)I.e: A person enters my home and says he is going to shoot me. He reaches into his pocket and pulls out a cell phone - shouting 'April Fool'.
    When he reaches for his pocket I point my firearm at him, take aim and with intention fire once/twice until the perceived threat is neutralized.

    In Oscar's case there has been no contact at all with the 'perceived' threat; except within the realms of his imagination.

    4. Firearm owners as tested not by the 'regular' reasonable man test. They are held to a higher standard by virtue of the stringent testing related to owning a firearm. So the reasonable man, becomes the 'reasonable firearm owner'. Whether they use the 'reasonable double amputee firearm owner' remains to be seen - but going on past case law, disability doesn't seem to be 'central'.


    5. I doubt that Dr Perumal has scheduling issues. The DT simply can't afford to call him to the stand. Stomach contents and all that jazz............


    Yesterday I ran a half marathon (The 2 Oceans here in CT), and whilst running I was mulling over this case (it was a good way to pass the time whilst barely able to breathe ) After about 17 km's, I realized that OP is guilty of a lot more than the 'murder' of RS. I have always found him most unsavory, and dark character so I guess I'm not entirely objective. By 20km's I was ready to dish out the punishment myself.

    His 's have irked me more than I care to admit.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gbtaketwo View Post
    Some interesting points raised her.
    I guess we will never find out the full truth .
    Bearing in mind Oscar went upstairs on his own after the shooting while Dr Stipp's was checking over Reeva there are any number of things he could have done ,moved or concealed . I always felt that too many people had access to the house that night .There may be some charges brought after this trial with regard to the removal of the phone. With regard to the ammunition if it was removed with the consent of a police officer then I guess they can't now do anything about that except deal with the officer who agreed to it maybe.
    He also allowed them to take a dongle from the safe and goodness knows what might have been on that . If it had information regarding offshore accounts then it should not have been released because his financial status and flight risk was a factor in being granted bail.
    With regard to Botha I can't help but think that the charges that were suddenly brought against him may be unfair so will follow this where I can .
    Well I think both those who removed evidence AND the cop who gave it are "chargeable" with crimes.

    Nowe RE the charges brought agsint Botha during the BH. Yes I know all that and it is fascinating.

    Botha has said during pursuit of a murderer [or his buds], a van ran him and a colleague off the road--at 1oo mph. Elsewhere he has said that the culprit in the murder of a woman at an office building whose body was then stuffed inside a drain/sewer, was a friend of his station commander...

    To me this has always implied, the possibility of his own commander informed the people in the van--who he shot at [their tires] in self-defense after the run off the road.

    Logic again: How else could the van occupants know to go after him and try to run him off the road?

    "This one runs deep."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by shane13 View Post
    OK then.


    More On the .38 ammo Oscar had in his safe--which someone took from the crime scene ©Shane13

    Again this is a serious crime both for whoever took it, and for whichever COP gave it to apparently, Carl, Aimee, Arnold, or Oldwage. It is implied a very high level cop. But this is speculation.

    One of the reasons I keep citing the things removed and/or given to shall we say "Initial Defense Team'. [I like this term I just coined, so I will use it and abbreviate it as IDT] is that since we know of 2 crucial items of evidence that were taken/given to IDT, is it not reasonable to assume that other items may have also be taken by/given to IDT?

    And these may be even more crucial to OP, and so these theoretical items have not been cited by anyone.

    Now the first thing that comes to mind that may have been taken by IDT relates to one of the items that we know was taken. The item taken is the .38 ammo, and we know that Oscar tried to pin the rap on his dad, Henke. Henke refused to take the rap. I conclude that perhaps Oscar had another gun at home, that he had no license to own.

    Now especially when you consider Oscar’s state of mind, he could always have thought to himself, what if my one and only gun jammed? I must have a 2nd one at home.

    And if he had a .38 revolver, could he have used it either before at home if he “lost it’ at the mo, or even possibly that fateful night?

    And its existence has possibly been covered up by both sides.

    It was actually Det. Botha who cited the .38 ammo being taken and that earlier top cop(s) allowed Carl and Oldwage all over the crime scene. So as usual with the MSM, the one they cite as “no good in many ways” may actauilly have said and done things that have forced the revelation of items removed from the crime scene. He may be a hero in some ways.

    My main point here I raise is the possility that .38 ammo was there because it might have accompanied a .38 revolver. And the latter--if it was in OP’s home--has long ago been dispatched to a Black Hole. [Again speculation and logic, no proof of course. Damn Black Holes.]
    Shane
    I agree that it is more than possible that other items were taken.
    I also think its more than possible he would have a 'backup' gun.

    They had to return the 5th phone because its existence was known.
    They had to return the ammo because its existence was known.
    They would not return (or be asked to return) anything that LA weren't aware of so there is a chance there was a matching firearm as nobody surely believes the "looking after it for daddy" story.
    However, I'm not sure how this relates to the night in question and it would seem to only be related to avoiding further gun charges, which are serious but in my mind, not the main focus.
    I am interested in the 5th cartridge and in the hole to the bedroom door but I can't make the link to your theory.
    However, I do think evidence was removed and/or cleaned/changed by OP, his first helpers and perhaps your IDT.

    Its extremely frustrating that we probably don't have the full and true picture of the scene and perhaps crucial phone evidence but its completely gone and so it makes speculation even more dubious than what we can work from.

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