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  1. #1
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    NCBanker - help with Mormon/LDS religion, please...

    ....Being an Eastern Orthodox kinda gal, I'm not as familiar with Mormonism/Church of LDS as I should be, and I have some questions, if you would feel comfortable answering them...(If not, I understand...). I have done some of my own research on this, but am not clear on these things:

    1. If someone of the Mormon faith has really transgressed "big time" (i.e., murder), and lies about it, and shows no remorse, I'm assuming that when they die then, they would not be entitled to a Mormon-type of funeral, nor would they be buried in "Temple garments"??

    2. Regarding confessions of sins that also happen to be crimes: Is there "confession" of sorts in the Mormon temple? Who can you confess to where the confession would be protected from the secular world? For example, in the Eastern Orthodox church, if you confess to a priest, the content of the confession would be protected even if it is a crime. However, I'm not so sure of this would hold if you decidsed to "spill your guts" to a deacon, for example...

    3. Is there something in the Mormon/LDS church similar to what the Amish/Mennonites do regarding excommunicating/shunning someone who has transgressed "big time" (i.e., murder)??

    4. How does the concept of "forgiveness" for Mormons differ from the Catholic/Orthodox concept of such, or is it the same?
    ___________

    This is what I've figured out, but I want to make sure I am being accurate. I get the sense that there are certain crimes that are not forgiven by "good works" in the Mormon Church, murder being one of them. I also understand that members can be excommunicated for soing something heious, but I think the terminology for this is different...

    I also get the sense that confession is something that can be done publicly or privately, but I don't know how it is dealt with if the information given in the confession also relates to a serious crime...
    (The Mark Hacking case also comes to mind here...)

  2. #2
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    1. If someone of the Mormon faith has really transgressed "big time" (i.e., murder), and lies about it, and shows no remorse, I'm assuming that when they die then, they would not be entitled to a Mormon-type of funeral, nor would they be buried in "Temple garments"??

    Well just so you know, Mormon-type funerals are like any other funerals. There is, however, no irreverant music; there's music, just not anything irreverent. The tone is typically focused on the Savior, the Atonement and Resurrection, and obviously, the deceased. If the deceased was an "endowed" member of the Church, meaning, they've gone to the temple, they are usually buried in their temple clothing. If the deceased had been excommunicated, they would not be buried in their temple clothing. Unless the deceased had disciplinary action taken against them, and they were "endowed," they would be buried in their temple clothing. This of course does not entitle them to anything, if they were in fact an unworthy member. The Lord is no fool.

    2. Regarding confessions of sins that also happen to be crimes: Is there "confession" of sorts in the Mormon temple? Who can you confess to where the confession would be protected from the secular world? For example, in the Eastern Orthodox church, if you confess to a priest, the content of the confession would be protected even if it is a crime. However, I'm not so sure of this would hold if you decidsed to "spill your guts" to a deacon, for example...

    For more serious sins, confession is done with the Bishop (who serves in a leadership capacity over the ward or congregation). Confession is not done in the temple. Only those worthy to enter are allowed to do so. One must obtain a temple "recommend" from the Bishop and Stake President. This recommend is presented at the door when you enter the temple. The recommend indicates that you have been interviewed by both the Bishop and Stake President and have been found worthy to enter the temple. A Stake President is the equivalent to an Arch Diocese in the Catholic Church and presides over multiple wards or congregations.

    I know that a Bishop will report sexual crimes against children or minors, however, I'm not sure of other crimes. I'll check into this.

    3. Is there something in the Mormon/LDS church similar to what the Amish/Mennonites do regarding excommunicating/shunning someone who has transgressed "big time" (i.e., murder)??

    Yes, members are excommunicated for serious sins, i.e. abortion, adultery, murder, apostasy. The local branch of the Church holds a "court-like" meeting in which the individual's membership is on trial; the member is invited to attend. Should the member not attend the disciplinary council, or be unable to, due to being in jail, they can be tried in absentia. Let me say though that unlike other religions that "shun" those who are excommunicated, the process takes place in a kind, loving setting. We do not "shun" them. In fact, for sins other than murder, we work with the individual to help them repent over time so that if they wish, they can be rebaptized and become a member of the Church once again. This does not happen immediately, however. The individual must wait at least 1 year, and even then, if they don't show true sorrow and repentance, they aren't readmitted.

    4. How does the concept of "forgiveness" for Mormons differ from the Catholic/Orthodox concept of such, or is it the same?

    Repentance brings about forgiveness and is contingent upon the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We know He suffered for our sins and paid the ultimate price. If we truly repent, meaning we confess to the Lord(and to the Bishop for more serious sins), correct the wrong that has been done (i.e. repay money that has been taken or replace something that has been stolen, or correct a lie that has been told, etc.), forsake the sin (meaning you don't do it again) and obviously feel sorrow for what we've done, the sin is forgiven and erased.

    There is one sin, however, that differs from all others - Murder. In the repentance process one cannot make amends for a life that has been taken - that is, their life cannot be replaced. For this reason, the murderer will pay for that sin.
    ___________

    This is what I've figured out, but I want to make sure I am being accurate. I get the sense that there are certain crimes that are not forgiven by "good works" in the Mormon Church, murder being one of them. I also understand that members can be excommunicated for doing something heinous, but I think the terminology for this is different...

    You're right on track!

    I also get the sense that confession is something that can be done publicly or privately, but I don't know how it is dealt with if the information given in the confession also relates to a serious crime...
    (The Mark Hacking case also comes to mind here...)

    As I mentioned above, more serious sins require the assistance of the Bishop in the repentance process. He can help greatly in this process.
    Last edited by NCBanker; 06-03-2005 at 09:16 AM.

  3. #3
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    Thank you very much for for the information, NCBanker!

    {...interesting that the Mormons and most Jews think in somewhat the same way about murder....What Jewish people say is that in order to be forgiven you also have to ask forgiveness from the person you sinned against. In the case of murder, since you obviously cannot do this, then murder cannot be forgiven...(Yes, this is off-topic, but comparative religion is always interesting!)}

    ...you can see where my thoughts might be headed with the questions I was asking you...

  4. #4
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    Our religion is very similar to Judaism in many ways. We have a great fondness for Jews, almost as distant relatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by cappuccina
    {...interesting that the Mormons and most Jews think in somewhat the same way about murder....What Jewish people say is that in order to be forgiven you also have to ask forgiveness from the person you sinned against. In the case of murder, since you obviously cannot do this, then murder cannot be forgiven...(Yes, this is off-topic, but comparative religion is always interesting!)}

    ...you can see where my thoughts might be headed with the questions I was asking you...

  5. #5
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    ...that's my other "half"...

    ...my Mom is Jewish, my Dad Eastern Orthodox... My husband's family is Lutheran, Jewish, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist and Presbyterian; you can see where my interest in comparative religion comes from!

    BTW he works with several Mormons (engineers) who work very hard and are extremely kind and easy to get along with in the workplace...

  6. #6
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    Banker, if they were once endowed and know all the secret handshakes, signs, etc., can't they get into the Celestial heaven anyway? I mean, if God is no fool, why are those needed? It's confusing.
    "To be a good Republican, you have to believe that God hates homosexuality, but loves the death penalty." Ann Richards

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCBanker
    Our religion is very similar to Judaism in many ways. We have a great fondness for Jews, almost as distant relatives.
    Bruce McConkie, the chief theologian before his death, once said: "The Jews were cursed and smitten and cursed anew because they rejected the gospel, cast out their Messiah, and crucified their King...the Jewish denial and rejection of the Holy One...made them a hiss and a byword in all nations...(and) so shall it be until they repent and come unto Him whom their fathers slew and hanged on a tree...and only when they believe the Book of Mormon and turn to Joseph Smith."

    The LDS church holds the Jews responsible for Jesus' death - not the Romans. I never could understand that.

    Also, don't Mormons consider themselves to the "true Jews"?
    "To be a good Republican, you have to believe that God hates homosexuality, but loves the death penalty." Ann Richards

  8. #8
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    I hesitate to even dignify the two previous posts with a response, being that this forum is dedicated to the memory of Janet Abaroa and our desire to see her killer brought to justice. There's always someone waiting for a chance to make a jab. I will simply say that this poster is misinformed on a number of levels as to our faith and what we believe.

    I took time to answer questions from a fellow sleuther, not to assert our beliefs on others, but to provide insight into what Janet believed and held dear to her. Mocking that is disgraceful and certainly not indicative of a true follower of Jesus Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by AutumnBorn
    Bruce McConkie, the chief theologian before his death, once said: "The Jews were cursed and smitten and cursed anew because they rejected the gospel, cast out their Messiah, and crucified their King...the Jewish denial and rejection of the Holy One...made them a hiss and a byword in all nations...(and) so shall it be until they repent and come unto Him whom their fathers slew and hanged on a tree...and only when they believe the Book of Mormon and turn to Joseph Smith."

    The LDS church holds the Jews responsible for Jesus' death - not the Romans. I never could understand that.

    Also, don't Mormons consider themselves to the "true Jews"?
    Last edited by NCBanker; 06-08-2005 at 06:56 PM.

  9. #9
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    We arent going to get into a religious debate here. Questions as to how the Mormon faith would influence Raven or Janet are fine...but religious debate will serve no purpose in this case.

  10. #10
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    AutumnBorn, knock it off...'k?

    ...wanna debate religion, hon? Go to the Parking Lot or the Political Pavilion. I am trying to have an academic/enlightened/civilized discussion here about religious issues that relate to this case. As I am from a "mixed" religious background myself, and as we live in America with freedom to worship as we please, I am tolerant of all mainstream religions (just don't get me started on groups like the Moonies who are dangerous, and do not live by the "Golden Rule"), and find the comparative study of religions quite fascinating, actually. I (and my family) have friends of many, many religious faiths...

    NCBanker has been an great resource to those of us on this board vis a vis his knowledge of the Mormon Church, as well as many other issues related to this case. He is a true gentleman, and should be treated as such.
    I, for one, am EXTREMELY grateful to the Mormons/LDS because of their exhaustive work in geneology. I lost many relatives in the Holocaust, as well as the massacres of the Armenians by the Turks in the 19th and 20th centuries. Many churches and synogogues, homes and entire villages were burned to the ground, with family records being lost forever. I don't knwo how they do it, but I was able to find more records at the LDS geneology sites than I could have anywhere else, things we thought were lost forever. So, even If NCBanker and I differ in how we practice our religion, I think we are both decent folks spiritually, and we respect each other.

    Go take a course in comparative religion at your local university and enlighten yourself, please.

    (OK, I'll go back to washing my kids' hockey equipment in the 90 degree heat now!! )


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cappuccina
    ...

    Go take a course in comparative religion at your local university and enlighten yourself, please.

    (OK, I'll go back to washing my kids' hockey equipment in the 90 degree heat now!! )
    I'm good as long as we stay away from the issue of ... shhhh scientology.

    They scare me!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCBanker
    I hesitate to even dignify the two previous posts with a response, being that this forum is dedicated to the memory of Janet Abaroa and our desire to see her killer brought to justice. There's always someone waiting for chance to make a jab. I will simply say that this poster is misinformed on a number of levels as to our faith and what we believe.

    I took time to answer questions from a fellow sleuther, not to assert our beliefs on others, but to provide insight into what Janet believed and held dear to her. Mocking that is disgraceful and certainly not indicative of a true follower of Jesus Christ.
    NCBanker: Kudos to you for responding in such a mature, dignified and classy way! Thank you for your much needed posts.

  13. #13
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    If anyone has SINCERE questions about our faith, you're welcome to PM me and ask. It's quite simple, and I'll be more than happy to respond. Though his/her additional remarks are no longer posted, Autumnborn posted a couple of additional messages today, which again, were completely off-skew and disrespectful. Thanks to a vigilant moderator, they were deleted.

    If I were inclined to post something about a religion other than my own, I would most certainly validate that information with someone of THAT faith, prior to posting, for fear of looking like a complete bigot.

    Autumnborn obviously has an agenda here, despite a moderator and several forum members expressing their disdain for his/her comments.

  14. #14
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    We arent going to get into a religious debate here. Questions as to how the Mormon faith would influence Raven or Janet are fine...but religious debate will serve no purpose in this case.


    All other religious postings will be deleted...and continued abusers will be TO'd.

    Speculation as to Janets soul serves NO purpose.



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