Trial Discussion Thread #40

Oscar Pistorius: South Africa gears up for its 'trial of the century'

(CNN) -- He was one of South Africa's favorite sons, an amputee track star who defied all the odds and sprinted into the hearts of millions during the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. She was a staggering beauty with the brains to match, a law graduate and model whose star was on the rise.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-preview/



Pistorius channel goes on air in South Africa

http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_306483/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Ip4glGHn
Watch live: Oscar Pistorius murder trial
Follow events from Pretoria as paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius appears in court accused of murdering his girlfriend, the model Reeva Steenkamp.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Watch-live-Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial.html


Links:

Full Indictment-4 Counts-107 Witnesses

http://www.scribd.com/embeds/185695...=1&view_mode=scroll&show_recommendations=true

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/LIVE-UPDATES-Pistorius-broadcast-trial-ruling-20140225

http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/DStvs-Oscar-Pretorius-trial-TV-channel-wont-be-tabloid-20140228


Twitter:

https://twitter.com/oscartrial199

https://twitter.com/GeraldImrayAP

https://twitter.com/Debora_Patta

Live Streaming:

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-live-stream/

http://mybroadband.co.za/news/internet/97919-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-live-streaming.html

http://www.702.co.za/shows/oscar_stream.asp

http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch-live-here-oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-day-9/

http://whoopwhoop.tv/pistorius2.htm

Live News Feed

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4

Trial Video Archive:

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/

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link link

Thanks for the new thread Harmony2. And the refreshments look delish.

When the last thread was just closed, I panicked. I worried that everything would shut down for 30 days like OP channel.

Thanks Harmony2!

ColonelMustard said:

When the last thread was just closed, I panicked. I worried that everything would shut down for 30 days like OP channel.

Thanks Harmony2!

Click to expand...

Same here - I stepped away for a minute and came back to an empty room. :scared:

ColonelMustard said:

When the last thread was just closed, I panicked. I worried that everything would shut down for 30 days like OP channel.

Thanks Harmony2!

Click to expand...

I was just finishing the last thread and read your lovely post. I typed out a response which took an hour and could not post it due to the thread being closed.

My 20 year old brother was murdered in 1982 in an attempted robbery. He was a rising junior at Duke, 2 weeks away from going back when he was killed. He was shot point blank in the head and died in the ER where I was working (RN) that night. He came in as a John Doe as the police had his wallet. I could not save him.....

The entire event is a video loop in my head. I remember every single detail. Every single sound, smell, the sounds of my screaming, my helplessness despite my education and training. The 2 men who killed my brother were caught; two murder trials later, sentenced to LWOP.

I was 25 and his death has never left me. His death splintered my family. My mother was never the same. As my life went on, I got married and had children and they have had to endure the hypervigilance and my constant tisk and safety assessments.

I have spent 32 years trying to honor my brother, quietly, through the highest levels of the US Government and through working as an RN in the ER, trying to help and save others from a similar pain as mine. No one should ever have to walk in my shoes. The rage and the grief sits quietly deep below the surface. No one would ever know unless I told them.

Thank you for your kindness and that of others. I am constantly reminded of the caring and goodness in people through these forums. We all seek justice in our own way, for those who can no longer speak for themselves. God Bless.

Bumped forward:

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 14 May 2014 - YouTube
Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 14 May 2014

Some pertinent comments by Judge Masipa referring to the Order:
"It is not about anyone's convenience, but rather whether that Justice has been served".
"It is necessary to emphasize that an Application of this nature is never taken lightly as it is an integral part of a fair trial".

Zuri said:

I was just finishing the last thread and read your lovely post. I typed out a response which took an hour and could not post it due to the thread being closed.

My 20 year old brother was murdered in 1982 in an attempted robbery. He was a rising junior at Duke, 2 weeks away from going back when he was killed. He was shot point blank in the head and died in the ER where I was working (RN) that night. He came in as a John Doe as the police had his wallet. I could not save him.....

The entire event is a video loop in my head. I remember every single detail. Every single sound, smell, the sounds of my screaming, my helplessness despite my education and training. The 2 men who killed my brother were caught; two murder trials later, sentenced to LWOP.

I was 25 and his death has never left me. His death splintered my family. My mother was never the same. As my life went on, I got married and had children and they have had to endure the hypervigilance and my constant tisk and safety assessments.

I have spent 32 years trying to honor my brother, quietly, through the highest levels of the US Government and through working as an RN in the ER, trying to help and save others from a similar pain as mine. No one should ever have to walk in my shoes. The rage and the grief sits quietly deep below the surface. No one would ever know unless I told them.

Thank you for your kindness and that of others. I am constantly reminded of the caring and goodness in people through these forums. We all seek justice in our own way, for those who can no longer speak for themselves. God Bless.

Click to expand...

Wow, Zuri, just... wow. I've lost both my brothers, though not through violence and I can't begin to imagine the horror you must have felt. I'm so sorry.

Trying to stay on topic here, what you said about that night looping through your head is exactly what I'd expect to hear from someone who's experienced the loss of a loved one, especially under violent circumstances. That OP could have lapses in memory, especially when it was convenient, doesn't sound right.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-14/oscar-pistorius-to-undergo-psychiatric-assessment/5453444

Oscar Pistorius trial: Judge orders psychiatric assessment, further delaying case
By Africa correspondent Martin Cuddihy, wires

The trial of Oscar Pistorius has been put on hold after the judge ordered the Olympic athlete be sent for psychiatric assessment...

Fuskier said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-14/oscar-pistorius-to-undergo-psychiatric-assessment/5453444

Oscar Pistorius trial: Judge orders psychiatric assessment, further delaying case
By Africa correspondent Martin Cuddihy, wires

The trial of Oscar Pistorius has been put on hold after the judge ordered the Olympic athlete be sent for psychiatric assessment...

Click to expand...

Strange that Roux argued that the psych assessment would be premature when many of the legal experts commenting on the trial believe a proper assessment should have been done shortly after he was charged.

DILLIGAF said:

Strange that Roux argued that the psych assessment would be premature when many of the legal experts commenting on the trial believe a proper assessment should have been done shortly after he was charged.

Click to expand...

His mental health hasn't been at issue up until now afaik. Why do the "experts" think he should have been assessed earlier if there was no issue there? Are they advocating mental health assessments for anyone who has killed someone?

Bumped from previous thread:
Today, 11:49 AM

alioop
Verified Attorney (AU)

The State will be investigating the options of how the assessment for OP can be done. My bet is that Nel will give the Judge information that likely includes documentation from the psychiatric institution, stating that the evaluation needs to be done as an inpatient. If this is the normal process and it appears that it is from all the SA psych commentators I have read and seen, I cannot see the Judge diverting from the normal process.

She has been at pains to ensure the trial has been run fairly and properly, no doubt partly to avoid grounds for appeal. Also the only psychiatric evidence on OP's state of mind she has heard says that he is dangerous and that was from his witness. She must also realise that he has some sort of mental disorder currently as she heard him testify and that raises all sorts of questions other than is he just lying. She has seen his distress and physical symptoms when he has listened to other witnesses. She also knows he seems unable to accept responsibility for anything that he doesn't want to no matter how minor it is the grand scheme of the charges against him. She knows that she is not equipped to understand his mental health and that he needs proper serious evaluation.

I think she has a number of responsibilities at this point. To get him properly assessed, to ensure his safety and the safety of others. It is not rocket science to realise that if he does suffer from GAD or any other mental disorder, that it will be further triggered by the stress of her order for assessment. I suspect she may be worried now that she didn't have him taken into custody yesterday. I don't think she will make the same mistake on Tuesday. Hopefully Nel will be able to tell her that he has made arrangements for OP to be admitted as an inpatient immediately.

If she does allow him to remain on bail either while waiting to be admitted as an inpatient or if she allows him to be an outpatient, I expect Nel will ask for strict bail conditions to be imposed. Given the poor state of his defence and the almost certainty that he will be convicted and jailed, he is a big flight risk, way more so than prior to his trial commencing.
__________________


All in my opinion only

I thought her getting into the outpatient discussion was unwise unless it was already known that this is possible. Which may be the case.

DILLIGAF said:

Strange that Roux argued that the psych assessment would be premature when many of the legal experts commenting on the trial believe a proper assessment should have been done shortly after he was charged.

Click to expand...

I have no doubt his defence team may have wanted one but from everything that I have read about OP I believe he would have been adamant that there was nothing wrong with him mentally and that it was not necessary.
This is one of the biggest problems for me . OP has gone through this whole trial process with a set agenda and that is admit nothing that might have the slightest impact on his future earning potential . It is so strange to think that Reeva actually had to reassure him with those very words .
He has clearly expected to be able to walk away from all charges and continue with his life as if nothing has happened . I really don't see a broken man suffering guilt from what he did to Reeva ,I see an arrogant man suffering the pain of what he has done to himself .
I am sure if he could turn the clock back he wouldn't shoot her but the fact is he did JMOO

Good morning from a very chilly Cape Town. Just as my ‘post general election’ workload gives me a break, the trial halts. Oh dear.

However, one must celebrate this turn of events. (Even though selfishly, we would all like this circus to reach some sort of finality)
The reason I say we should celebrate this turn of events is multi layered.

1. Taking into account the SA Constitution and the blanket of silence IT (and as a follow through – the Criminal Procedure Act) affords the accused, this referral IN THIS CASE MOST SPECIFICALLY, is GOLD.
2. Who says Barry Roux and the defense DID NOT have Oscar fully evaluated by various ‘clinically qualified’ individuals before the trial started? We must remember that Oscar’s ‘psychologist’, Dr Lore Hartzenberg, is an EDUCATIONAL psychologist – NOT a clinical psychologist. This goes a long way in explaining her irrelevant, inappropriate and whacked behaviour. Very important distinction to be made here. His other psychological support comes in the form an ‘industrial’ psychologist. Once more – zero relevance to clinical psychology IMHO. (It’s like having a gynae (who is a medical doctor yes) commenting on advanced neurosurgery). Once OP’s testimony had failed so dismally, Barry’s hand was forced in terms of sending OP to Dr Vorster (who is most respected in SA) in the hope that a short consultation, with only favourable info re: OP, would ONLY highlight some sort of ‘minor’ disorder which ‘could’ have played a part in his actions. Sadly for the defense, Dr Vorster has been around the block more than once – this was clear in her evidence. Many felt she was ‘pro’ Oscar – I thought the opposite. She made it CLEAR that the chap in all probability ‘could’ have issues far beyond the realms of GAD. Listen to her evidence and read between the lines. SHE wanted to open the door for further (and more in-depth) evaluation, and was delighted when Gerrie mentioned it. She even quite gleefully suggested this might be a ‘good idea’. I believe that she is well aware of what might be found – YES, he might have GAD (lower side of the scale I would think) – BUT: there is more, much more – with greater relevance to the incident in question.
3. Barry’s anger at Dr Vorster entering the court without him having a moment to confer with her was ‘CRUCIAL’ IMHO. He needed to have a chat with her before she took the stand......he couldn’t due to her entering the other side of the court.......and he flipped (taking out his frustration on Roxanne Adams) He knew there was a hug risk, and he needed Dr Vorster to play certain things down. She didn’t, and the rest as we know is history.
4. I fully believe that Oscar WAS evaluated by clinical teams before the trial, and it was decided very quickly to bury those reports and not use them at all. Barry would have been extremely negligent if he had NOT done this pre-trial. And whilst he had the client from hell, he is not negligent. I also believe firmly that these reports would have been damning. Besides this, Oscar himself would be fighting ‘tooth and nail’ to avoid any sort of ‘exploration of his mind’ – in fact probably performing and posturing terribly the entire time said tests were conducted pre-trial. He is aware on some level that he has a personality disorder (I state this from MOO, but with some certainty) as are most – qualified clinicians or not. Oscar’s history attests to this.
The fights
The firearm carelessness
The speeding
The recklessness
Etc

Be reminded that ALL of these factors, conveniently left out in terms of Dr Vorster’s evaluation, WILL be considered in the upcoming one.

5. Gerrie has managed to enter into evidence, by means of this evaluation, ALL SORTS of things he would not have been able to before. Be reminded that Dr Vorster had statements from Oscar’s friends (Divaris etc) and family – this panel is entitled to delve a little further if they feel it necessary (and they will....) by asking the state to provide them with statements from let’s say for example, The Myers sisters; Bachelor; Sam Taylor’s mother etc. They might not – BUT, the psychiatrist appointed by the prosecution, will most certainly be interested in exploring his ‘behavioural history’ with relation to this case and the build up of events leading to Feb 13. This of course, would include the escalation in Oscar’s behaviour from Sept 2012 until the Feb 13. This folk, is GOLD. Everything the defense worked so hard to ‘keep out’ is now being let in – albeit in a rather backwards manner. Remember, this usually happens during the sentencing phase so I am going to give you an example of how detailed SOME sections of the evaluation may be – there will be forensic social workers, the 3 appointed psychiatrists (defense, prosecution, and state institution), clinical psychologists etc.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/killer-teen-taught-that-men-don-t-cry-1.1688381#.U3Rjcyg0ojg
6. Perhaps Barry is torn. He must know that Oscar stands a huge risk of being diagnosed in similar lines to the 17 year old in the above matter – yet, he also knows that Oscar is in fact a danger to society – not because of his GAD, but his recklessness. How many could he have killed by firearm, speeding etc already? His family also know this to be true. The PERMANENT look of panic on his sister’s face, and the manner in which she glances at him every 3 secs tells me all I need to know about WHAT the family know. They have enabled, covered and buried very deep the true nature of his disorder (and personality). The time for reckoning has come – and like Roux, they must, on SOME level, feel deep relief.
7. Many think Gerrie Nel is taking this personally. I say no. His ONLY concern is justice. Not only for Reeva, but for society at large. He realises the need to have Oscar removed from society – because he is a danger - and I do believe that he is not concerned how this is done – as long as it is done. Those feeling Roux has scored a point here might very be correct – but not in the way they think. Roux at heart, would not want a loose cannon on the streets of SA. Oscar has continuously put the lives of innocents at risk – speeding cars, speeding boats, firearm negligence etc. Roux knows this, and he knows this is indicative of a personality disorder that IMHO WAS diagnosed pre-trial but buried (because Oscar would be having NONE of this at all)
8. The only person, who seems to be unaware of the very obvious kinks in OP’s personality, is OP himself. This is the problem Roux has been saddled with from Day 1. Oscar has been running his own defense supported by his own narcissism and very little else.
9. His day of meeting his true self is drawing near. Oscar won’t like it one bit. Society on the other hand will.
Sorry for the long post – but I just had to add my 2 cents. I just threw my thoughts down.


Narcissism however, will not get him any sort of ‘tread carefully and work gently’ attention from M’lady. No, just like the 17 year old mentioned in the link I posted above, it would be a custodial sentence for him in one of our prisons. (Not that I mind if he is declared criminally insane and packed off to Weskoppies for 15 years)

**Sorry for any typos etc – rushed post with more to come

That was a big black eye for Roux and Oscar.. as an officer of the court himself, Roux should have had his client assessed long before the trial in the event of the matter being raised,.. Professor Cat-among-the Pigeons Vorster raised it , and after only 2 short sessions with the client. But Oscar put her up in that order.. ..

I get the distinct impression that Roux is battling over riding input, Arthur, Oscar, Aiimee ,etc.. sure, they pay the bill ( and I hope Roux is getting a running estimate and payment program that is right on track, because getting his money out of this crew is not assured) .. but their legal advice would be precisely zero. I firmly believe that Oscar jibbed about having a psyche assessment done from the get go and was forced into it after he gave evidence.. too little and too late. There is no doubt in my mind that Roux , an experienced attorney wouldn't have done his best to convince Oscar of the necessity..

Which brings me to my main point. this whole defence is seemingly done on the fly. It's all reactive, even retroactive.. it didn't seem to get started until the actual trial. Bits and pieces, but nothing comprehensive or even integrated.. a severe lack of funding is my only reason I can think of.

Interesting bits. Oscar put his house in Silverwoods up for sale back on 2011.. this was a sort of boom time, prices rose a bit, and Oscar maybe thought he could , I hate to use the phrase, make a killing on the property market... but it didn't sell, it was overpriced, and under upkept to attract the price he was asking.. .

It is still up for sale when he meets Reeva.. its an ongoing thing. It has become a liability now that he trains in Italy for 4 months of the year. sometimes 6 months.. . he introduces Reeva to Mr N.. the next door neighbour, the cranky one.. and now he wants to sell it because he is moving to J'burg with Reeva. his fiance..

Then. after the murder.. he tells Prof Vorster, that he was selling it because of its lack of security..

3 stories.. one house.

aha.. capetown Crim. utterly, and absolutely. if Oscar had done the assessment BEFORE the trial, he could have chosen which bits he may put in as evidence and which bits not.. NOW he has no choice. ALL will be available to the prosecutor and the judge..

What a frightful , frightful mistake. no wonder Roux was beside himself. .. Its hard to believe he didn't check everything Vorster was going to testify... under the constraints of time its understandable.. . Terrible, terrible, but there it is.

Morning to you Capetown crim .Wondered where you were
Great post above thanks for your insight .

Trooper said:

aha.. capetown Crim. utterly, and absolutely. if Oscar had done the assessment BEFORE the trial, he could have chosen which bits he may put in as evidence and which bits not.. NOW he has no choice. ALL will be available to the prosecutor and the judge..

What a frightful , frightful mistake. no wonder Roux was beside himself. .. Its hard to believe he didn't check everything Vorster was going to testify... under the constraints of time its understandable.. . Terrible, terrible, but there it is.

Click to expand...

Indeed. The Slamdora's BOX that is OP's psyche is open for business.

This is one of my personal fave articles. Dr Marc Goulston.

Dr Goulston: Marc. Rage—Coming Soon From a Narcissist Near You
Sound like anyone you know, if so, get out.

THEY are capable of a rage (even if it doesn’t cross over into violence) that is chilling.
Other characteristic traits of such narcissists** (and this also applies to the female variety) include:
• Control freaks
• Irritability
• Short fuses
• Low frustration tolerance
• Argumentative
• Need to have the last word
• Unable to lose
• Won’t take “No” for an answer
• Quick to anger if you don’t accommodate them
• Quick to being aggressively defensive if you call them on any deficiency, fault or responsibility
• Can’t apologize or if do, can’t do it sincerely
• Rarely say, “Thank you” or “Congratulations”
• Don’t feel or demonstrate remorse
• Feel entitled to enthusiastic and appreciative approval, adoration, agreement and obedience
• Gloat in victory, sullen in defeat
• Quick to rage if you humiliate them
What is the connection between narcissism and rage?
There is a saying that when you’re a hammer the world looks like a nail. When you’re a narcissist, the world looks like it should approve, adore, agree and obey you. Anything less than that feels like an assault and because of that a narcissist feels justified in raging back at it.
What is at the core of narcissists is not what is often referred to as low self-esteem. I don’t think that is accurate, but something that the people around them say to themselves to mollify their own rage at the narcissist, i.e. “Oh, they only act that way, because they lack self-esteem.”
What is really at the core of narcissists is an instability in their ability to feel and sustain feeling bigger, larger, smarter and more successful than everyone else which they need to feel stable. And just as Hamlet’s mother said, “the lady doth protest too much,” “the narcissist doth brag, scorn, talk down, primp and belittle too much” in order to continually prove to the world and themselves that they are larger than life. This is not to increase their self-esteem as much as it is to continually spackle the holes in their core that lead to a feeling of instability—and that, if not spackled, will lead to brittleness followed by fragmentation.
Narcissistic rage occurs when that core instability is threatened and furthermore threatened to destabilize them even further. Not unlike a wounded animal being the most vicious (because they think the next wound would kill them), narcissistic rage occurs when narcissists believe the next insult/assault to their grandiose based stability would shatter them.
In essence the reason narcissists are so self-centered is that their grandiosity based center needs to be constantly reinforced to remain stable.
What to do when a narcissist rages at you?
Don’t let them cross over the line to physical violence, but if it looks like they will follow you to keep verbally assaulting you and then maybe escalate, just listen to them until they sputter out. Don’t try to engage them verbally.


(Sound like anyone relevant to this case? :scared: And the BIB - that is what IMHO happened that evening.......the crossover, with Reeva in her innocence trying to engage with him verbally - through a door - Gerrie might have read this very article...... :fence

Gbtaketwo said:

Morning to you Capetown crim .Wondered where you were
Great post above thanks for your insight .

Click to expand...

I am rather gutted at being able to return to trial stalking :blushing: only to have the trial whipped away from me. For now at least.

The period post general election is always a rather hectic time for me work wise and this time round the timing was AWFUL. :tantrum:

With this adjournment I am going to catch up on all the threads, the discussions, the video footage, the opinions etc.

Whatever else this trial has or hasn't been, no-one can call it 'boring'. :ufo: