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  1. #16
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    Helicoptor or free range parenting, children still need to be directed in ways to find positive ways to develop self worth and empowerment. There was something that led these girls to believing it was murder, not academic success, sports success or countless other activities to empower them.

    The comment about trusting people being gullible, certainly tells me at least one of them had fine tuned a means of manipulating people.

    I think in hindsight, as people who know these girls try to make sense of this red flags will come out.
    ~JMO~

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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubby View Post
    Helicoptor or free range parenting, children still need to be directed in ways to find positive ways to develop self worth and empowerment. There was something that led these girls to believing it was murder, not academic success, sports success or countless other activities to empower them.

    The comment about trusting people being gullible, certainly tells me at least one of them had fine tuned a means of manipulating people.

    I think in hindsight, as people who know these girls try to make sense of this red flags will come out
    .
    I agree. I think there were things that were probably normal for them, but now that this has happened...it will be realized that it was simply not normal for anyone. If that makes sense.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    From what I can tell, the Ohio event happened -before- the Wisconsin attack, but the mother only noticed the Slenderman/demon art after she saw that on the news.

    The demon pictured in the article, mind you, is bright pink and anime-cute. Hardly cause to reach for the exorcism hotline.

    This is something I know, from personal experience: horror-art and dark themed books and films can actually be very therapeutic for troubled kids, too. It's a way of expressing all the fear and horror inside, and making it something creative and positive. It was my crutch, through my horrible childhood. I hate to think where I'd have been without that creative outlet.

    But yeah, mentally ill children need to be supervised. That's a whole different kettle of fish.

    Thank you. I had thought the Ohio case had just happened within the last day or two. It makes much more sense now why the mom came forward. Thank you for the additional info on how the dark themed stuff helped you. Having not explored that avenue myself, it gives me more understanding on those who do.

    ETA, and writing is one of the skills I admire tremendously. Especially literature. It's not a talent of mine, but I consider it as amazing as music or art.
    ~JMO~

    A grandfather is someone with silver in his hair and gold in his heart. ~Author Unknown


    Long Lost Love - Discovery ID - Disappeared - Bob Harrod Case

    You can now purchase Mr. Harrod's Disappeared episode through Amazon, iTunes or YouTube.

  4. #19
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    Thanks, Cubby. It really isn't disempowering for most people in the 'scene', but I can certainly see how people might think it is, who don't share the interest. I have found a part of my success in horror art and literature, and met many lovely friends through the genre. Some of them come from wonderful homes, it's not just us damaged kids who benefit from celebrating the darker aspects of creativity. But they're all the nicest people you could meet.

    But I must add, horror wasn't then and isn't now my whole life and only interest. Obsessive thinking about -anything- is red flag, IMO.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue22 View Post
    I agree. I think there were things that were probably normal for them, but now that this has happened...it will be realized that it was simply not normal for anyone. If that makes sense.

    It makes sense. I guess it's what caused them to believe it is normal that puzzles me.
    ~JMO~

    A grandfather is someone with silver in his hair and gold in his heart. ~Author Unknown


    Long Lost Love - Discovery ID - Disappeared - Bob Harrod Case

    You can now purchase Mr. Harrod's Disappeared episode through Amazon, iTunes or YouTube.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubby View Post
    It makes sense. I guess it's what caused them to believe it is normal that puzzles me.
    I think some of that is addressed in tlcya's great post a few posts back, which a few people have observed in this discussion. The girls may well have bought into and sold each other a fantasy world, in which violence enabled them to feel powerful and special. I do think at least one of them is mentally not well, and both are certainly capable of cunning.

    I think they had a chemistry between them that wasn't healthy, and as a parent who had had to deal with that sort of negative duo stuff, I can say there ARE plenty of red flags, if you're paying attention. Kids who are spiralling into a world of their own give off signals, though on the surface they may look like just BFFs. And they do get super secretive, so it's hard to spot - especially if you're not looking. And if you're paying attention, you can squash it -before- it turns nasty, as I did.

    Obsessive friendships do give off a weird vibe, though. I remain truly surprised there was NO sign of this coming anywhere. If that's actually so.

    Interest in horror alone isn't unhealthy, as a parent or a child. I don't care what anyone else thinks, I know this because I -live- it, thanks.

    There's plenty of sick-minded, callous and violent people out there, kids and adults, who aren't into horror.. so my belief is that the girl's behaviour has its roots somewhere else entirely. Obsessive friendship, perhaps unrecognised illness, perhaps things more mundane (jealousy) or as Mrs. G put in the last thread, perhaps a combination of these things.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubby View Post
    It makes sense. I guess it's what caused them to believe it is normal that puzzles me.
    If a person is how they are from birth, we come to accept they are this way. From all accounts we have, they did well in school, had no real social problems, did not cause trouble, and actually had friends. When someone is functioning well, we often just accept them as quirky or "unique." I don't think a parent is going to look at their child who is doing well in her daily life, and think their personal normal is something that should be troubling.

    I am willing to bet a lot, that the real concerning things were kept close to the two of them. I seriously doubt that anything major was able to be seen by anyone outside of themselves. Who knows...they have been more distant or inaccessible lately. Then again, it could have come across as totally normal tween pulling away. No one is going to look at their child who does well in school with no problems, and think murderer. I'm sure the parents are looking at this friendship and seeing they were too close, that it was strange. But, it's so hard to see that in highly functional well behaved kids.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubby View Post
    It makes sense. I guess it's what caused them to believe it is normal that puzzles me.
    the BBM got me googling killer duos and the phenomenon of how these pairs meet and feed off of one another. This really struck me

    How, and when, do they know the other one will kill? It seems weird that two people would meet and conspire to murder someone, however after researching the concept of coincidence, it isn’t that such people are drawn together by fate. Rather, twisted people are bound to meet and recognize an affinity in one another, quite the same way that “normal” people will do. I don’t believe this is based on coincidence. A coincidence has an oddball definition: a collection of two or more events or conditions, closely related by time, space, form, or other associations that occur at once. Meh. I’m of a mind that people are indeed as birds of a feather. We recognize ourselves in others. That’s why we like them and that is how bonds are formed.

    http://krazykillers.wordpress.com/20...-devious-duos/
    [removed a link that may not be close enough to this case to warrant comparison]

    anyway, there is some interesting reading out there and I am diving in.
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  9. #24
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    It wasn't the horror stuff that I wondered about being normal....... It was the lack of remorse and the lack of kindness, compassion... the things that are normal in society as far as treating others with respect.

    I say this as someone who would take a bug outside if I could do so, rather than kill it inside.

    It's the lack of respect for life. The ability to know they were purposely misleading someone. Nothing shaking them out of this as they counted 19 stab wounds. That they were even able to continue after inflicting the first wounds. It makes my stomach knot up thinking about it.

    I've also thought about kids believing they are less responsible as juvenille's.... I think the belief of having a clean slate once they turn 18 is misleading and possibly contributes. How many kids out there they they're a minor and can get away with.... or threaten to call CPS over being disciplined. I know that happens these days.....

    I don't have any problem with the horror stuff. It's just not an interest of mine. (I'm weird like that and don't have much interest in fiction).
    ~JMO~

    A grandfather is someone with silver in his hair and gold in his heart. ~Author Unknown


    Long Lost Love - Discovery ID - Disappeared - Bob Harrod Case

    You can now purchase Mr. Harrod's Disappeared episode through Amazon, iTunes or YouTube.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlcya View Post
    I am no helicopter and agree with Aus that too much can be just as damaging.

    But I know how to check and track my kids' footprints and search histories. They do not even know I am doing it half the time but I am always there, watching, even when they do not know. How else will I know see a red flag waving if I am not watching for them?
    That is why we are parents. It is not a matter of trust. It is a matter of smart.

    Even adults are taken in by sickos. Children do not have the tools or experience to know about lots of things in this world. We have more abiities and kmowledge.

    But we learn as well. I told my kids that I was the parent and it was my job to take care of them and guide them,


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    I honestly don't think every parent needs to worry to the extent of helicoptering. I feel it's also harmful to act as if your kids don't deserve trust, or deserve to be babied well into teenage years.

    But it's good sense, and being a good parent, to restrict/cut net access to kids who are mentally unstable or underdeveloped, especially if they can't be supervised.
    I think it is just good sense for parents to restrict Internet access to ALL kids that age. It's no different than restricting television, video games, cell phone, pop and candy. Too much of any anything has never been a good idea but I doubt this case was triggered by too much parental supervision or helicoptering.

    Kids and Teens
    I will try and keep my total screen time to 2 hours a day except when doing a project for school, or when my parents give me permission.


    Parents

    • I will check what my kids are doing online and on their phones, consider using parent controls, and use them judiciously.
    • I will let my kids know before I check their computers or enable parent controls on their computers or gaming units.
    • I will take the time to be interested in what my kids are doing online and in the digital world and talk to them about that world.
    • I will help them make good media choices.
    • If my child makes a mistake, I will ask questions and learn what happened before I punish or take away technology.
    • I will only take away technology as a last resort for defying our family pledge when other consequences have failed to work, such as reinforcing the rules and increase off-line chores.


    http://www.healthychildren.org/Engli...ly-Pledge.aspx

  12. #27
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    blue22, I think what you've said in your last post re the friendship makes a lot of sense. I do think there would have been -some- signs that the friendship was getting a bit obsessive, or their behaviour was. But yes, if they were otherwise acting completely normal, it'd be very hard to spot indeed unless via hindsight.

    I noticed my own girl's friendship was growing less than healthy by a change in how much respect they had for others, and a few incidents out of character for my girl. If there'd been NO sign whatsoever, or I wasn't keeping a discreet eye on it, I fear for how that might have gone.

    Cubby, it's such an interesting thing to look into, with lots of case studies both adult and child. Please do share if you come across anything of note.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyBelle View Post
    I think it is just good sense for parents to restrict Internet access to ALL kids that age. It's no different than restricting television, video games, cell phone, pop and candy. Too much of any anything has never been a good idea but I doubt this case was triggered by too much parental supervision or helicoptering.

    Kids and Teens
    I will try and keep my total screen time to 2 hours a day except when doing a project for school, or when my parents give me permission.


    Parents

    • I will check what my kids are doing online and on their phones, consider using parent controls, and use them judiciously.
    • I will let my kids know before I check their computers or enable parent controls on their computers or gaming units.
    • I will take the time to be interested in what my kids are doing online and in the digital world and talk to them about that world.
    • I will help them make good media choices.
    • If my child makes a mistake, I will ask questions and learn what happened before I punish or take away technology.
    • I will only take away technology as a last resort for defying our family pledge when other consequences have failed to work, such as reinforcing the rules and increase off-line chores.


    http://www.healthychildren.org/Engli...ly-Pledge.aspx
    I think those guidelines are really good ones. They require respect for both parent and child. I think the most useful one is the one about talking, keeping in touch in a non-nosy, non-judgemental way has paid off really well for me.

    As to the part I bolded - we don't know how much supervision was given these kids, we don't know how much internet time they had, and we don't know how much their interests online -actually- influenced them, if at all.

    We all parent differently, and we all hope we're doing the right thing. I don't think that's an unfair generalisation to make here at WS. But it's also true that we just cannot know or control some things, we aren't omniscient and all-powerful. Strict parents have kids go off the rails too, so who and what do we blame for that? Sometimes, it's factors beyond the scope of even a very good parent to stop a child behaving in self-destructive ways.

    eta: ^ Just trying to give the parents the benefit of a doubt, I am sure both their families are traumatised over this as well.
    Last edited by Ausgirl; 06-08-2014 at 04:37 PM.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubby View Post
    It wasn't the horror stuff that I wondered about being normal....... It was the lack of remorse and the lack of kindness, compassion... the things that are normal in society as far as treating others with respect.

    I say this as someone who would take a bug outside if I could do so, rather than kill it inside.

    It's the lack of respect for life. The ability to know they were purposely misleading someone. Nothing shaking them out of this as they counted 19 stab wounds.
    Oh I knew that, Cubby, I was just soapboxing a bit, not aimed at you or your comments.

    And YES I agree, the level of callousness in this is --horrendous-- in anyone, let alone two little girls. I am so hoping all those forensic psychs hanging around this case get to do some studies on them, as I for sure would love to know what made them tick.
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  15. #30
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    from what I read in several of the articles on this case the two 12 year old perps lived in the same apartment complex. A sort of built in BFF situation in the making.

    I am assuming that contributed to them being able to immerse themselves into this fantasy together. The proximity made it possible for them to be near constant companions if they were so inclined. I have no link or facts to back up the speculation that their proximity (living in same apartment complex) contributed but I suspect that it did as it gave them much more opportunity to spend time together, to the exclusion of other friends, which further fed their isolation and the unhealthy co-dependency where validation came only from one another or that validation was the most important type.
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