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  1. #61
    SmoothOperator's Avatar
    SmoothOperator is offline Sadly what connects all these puzzles is that there's a victim@the heart of each
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue22 View Post
    Do you not think there is a difference between gullible, and criminal? People believe in lots of things that are nuts. But that's usually the extent. They don't usually use those things to harm others.
    ITA that this is not at all a scenario involving gullibility of two pre-teens believing in the fictional character, SlenderMan, and their being gullible enough to fall for his truly existing thus leading to their attempting to murder "a friend" to please him.

    This goes so far beyond SlenderMan, or any other meme, or urban legend. While I am definitely one who strongly believes that unsupervised internet access is absolutely harmful in many ways, however, IMO, this is far exceeding unsupervised internet use being at the core of the problem in this case.

    To give a couple examples, off the top of my head, that I find to be very telling as to the extreme level of cold, calculated actions are:

    A) The statement made to LE that they had no feeling of remorse, sadness, or their being personally disturbed by their brutal actions.

    B) The statement made to the VICTIM that she needed to lie down and be still as this would HELP her in lessening her blood loss(yet stating to LE they knew this was a lie and their reasoning for telling the victim to do this was so that she WOULD LIE THERE AND DIE, rather than being able to attempt to seek aid for herself once they'd fled the scene)

    C) The VERY chilling statement Geyser made to LE, "people that trust you are the most gullible"!
    (IMO, made even more chilling in that they told LE that after she had stabbed her "friend" multiple times, the victim screamed out that "she had trusted her!!")

    IMO, there is very, very little, if any, gullibility at the crux of these girls' horrific actions. IMO, much different is there very cold, and calculated thoughts, behaviors, and actions, with ZERO remorse after having followed through with those cold, calculated actions.
    The quickest way to become a fool is to argue with one..

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    ^ I'm not saying there's an *actual* cult, btw, in case I'm misunderstood.

    Just that a group of heinous bullies on the net might have pretended to be one. Like they're doing in these sicko letters.
    No, I totally understood what you were saying. How seemingly sane people can come to believe in such fantastic things that can end up having such tragic results for themselves and sometimes for others. This motivation to commit acts that they may have never otherwise considered. The Cult analogy is a great point and speaks to how the human mind and how dark it can become, given "something to believe in".

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    If that's what they're sending to one of the attackers, imagine what they planned on sending the family of the victim.

    That would unnerve the crap outta me if it came in the mail. And I'm an adult.

    As for 12 year olds believing this and that or not, I certainly believe the vast majority of kids know fact from fiction, and that they do so by about age 8 these days. By 12, I'd be asking what sort of cognitive issues they had, if they truly didn't understand.

    But again, I raise the issue of how, then, otherwise sensible adult can believe in Xemu, or that if they kill themselves at the right moment wearing Nike tennis shoes, their souls will ascend into a comet which is taking them all to heaven. How do cognitively healthy adults come to *believe* the cray-cray stuff these cults have handed out, and hundreds of cults with stories just as crazy and obviously fictional?

    They usually have help, is how. Cults are something I've studied for a long time, how they work. It doesn't take a sophisticated one, nor sophisticated tactics, to convince people to do some very strange and sometimes dangerous or harmful things.

    Looking at the depths to which the crowd who penned that letter linked above will sink for kicks, I honestly believe there's a good chance someone or a group of someones was messing with their head over time, so perhaps the girls -did- believe that crapola they were spouting.

    Of course it's just as likely the whole story is a bald-faced lie designed to deflect from a perfectly rational, selfish motive (ie, jealousy) but there is, to me, just TOO many factors in place that could allow for them to be influenced by scum like those letter-writers to simply write it off as a possibility.
    for what it's worth, I do think there has to be something major lacking in a person's life to join a cult. I am fascinated by cults and also do a lot of research on them. In all the people willing to be interviews about a cult they were in...I didn't really see one that didn't have really big gaps in their life. (I am talking about adults that join, not people indoctrinated from a young age.)

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue22 View Post
    Do you not think there is a difference between gullible, and criminal? People believe in lots of things that are nuts. But that's usually the extent. They don't usually use those things to harm others.
    Really. And yet it happens.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue22 View Post
    for what it's worth, I do think there has to be something major lacking in a person's life to join a cult. I am fascinated by cults and also do a lot of research on them. In all the people willing to be interviews about a cult they were in...I didn't really see one that didn't have really big gaps in their life. (I am talking about adults that join, not people indoctrinated from a young age.)
    Well, I'm sorry, your research is imperfect.

    The people I know who've been indoctrinated did not have faulty lives. Many people who join cults are just like anyone else - good job, nice family. No more "lacking" than the next person. The whole point of cult indoctrination is to break down the normal structure of how a person usually thinks and replace it with something else. This really is not hard to do, and it does NOT require the victim to have something "lacking".

    I even know one person who was born to a (rather famous)cult. Interestingly, she said she *never* believed the garbage they fed the adults.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    Well, I'm sorry, your research is imperfect.

    The people I know who've been indoctrinated did not have faulty lives. Many people who join cults are just like anyone else - good job, nice family. No more "lacking" than the next person. The whole point of cult indoctrination is to break down the normal structure of how a person usually thinks and replace it with something else. This really is not hard to do, and it does NOT require the victim to have something "lacking".

    I even know one person who was born to a cult. Interestingly, she said she *never* believed the garbage they fed the adults.
    I meant something internally lacking. It has nothing to with tangible things or family. The cult fulfilled some hole (for lack of better terms) inside of them. A hole that for whatever reason normal religions, relationships, etc. could not. It seems like these people need the intensity and all-encompassing emotion of a cult. Even in the very introduction cults are more encompassing than other religions or practices. Before the breaking down and indoctrination, it's just more of everything. I do personally think the people attracted to that, have a certain lacking inside of them. I've seen it.

    I would say that any research can be called imperfect. We all find and view things differently. It doesn't mean any one of us is wrong.

    Your friend is a minority. It's very difficult for someone indoctrinated from birth to just think it's garbage.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
    ITA that this is not at all a scenario involving gullibility of two pre-teens believing in the fictional character, SlenderMan, and their being gullible enough to fall for his truly existing thus leading to their attempting to murder "a friend" to please him.
    rsbm

    S.O. - good post. I'd be 100% in your court there, if there was more proof these girls had such sociopathic tendencies normally.

    Could they really hide that all their lives? Perhaps there's stuff we're not hearing about, in that regard - it would certainly damage their defense if details that like came out.

    Yet, teachers and friends and family are floored. I am truly struggling to understand how two girls not already well known for cruel and unbalanced - or even just severely 'disconnected' - behaviour can develop over a few months into these heinous criminals.

    Folie a deux. Someone messing with their heads. Idk, but it just seems like this behaviour is out of character for these two, so I think it's valid to look for what might have influenced them, if anything.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue22 View Post
    I meant something internally lacking. It has nothing to with tangible things or family. The cult fulfilled some hole (for lack of better terms) inside of them. A hole that for whatever reason normal religions, relationships, etc. could not.
    There's plenty of "normal' (ie, socially acceptable) religions which use exactly the same techniques.

    I completely disagree with the idea that people in cults all have some sort of "hole" in their.. what. Minds. Hearts, idk.

    The insidious nature of cults is that they can take a perfectly normal but say, slightly curious, person and *break them down*.

    But I'm not going off on this tangential argument. Just, I think it's possible a couple of 12 yr olds could be sucked in by dedicated, sociopathic trolls on the net. Whose existence we have pictorial proof of, up there ^
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  9. #69
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    I think they let themselves get swept up by the Slenderman mythos to the point where the gap between delusion and reality became blurred, but if you had taken each girl aside a week before the murder and pinned them down and asked them they would have conceded that he didn't exist.

    Kind of like when you watch a scary movie and find yourself jolting or even screaming even tho all you're doing is sitting in a chair eating popcorn and completely safe.
    You don't get a medal for switching alliances just before the result, as it becomes apparent the other team is set to win.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
    There's plenty of "normal' (ie, socially acceptable) religions which use exactly the same techniques.

    I completely disagree with the idea that people in cults all have some sort of "hole" in their.. what. Minds. Hearts, idk.

    The insidious nature of cults is that they can take a perfectly normal but say, slightly curious, person and *break them down*.

    But I'm not going off on this tangential argument. Just, I think it's possible a couple of 12 yr olds could be sucked in by dedicated, sociopathic trolls on the net. Whose existence we have pictorial proof of, up there ^
    What I mean by "normal religions" is the average experience. The MAJORITY of churches do not break people down. Cults are not normal, as far as religions or religious experiences go.

    The thing is these people are attracted to the intensity BEFORE they start to get broken down. Anyone I've ever met who was involved in a cult, said the first meeting was more intense than anything they've ever experienced. It didn't feel "normal." They were incredibly drawn to that. I don't believe someone who is a fulfilled person is drawn to that. There is a difference between curiosity and being drawn. The average person (IMO) would be totally weirded out by the extreme emotional intensity there.

    Anyway, I agree that a 12 year old can be easily drawn into this. I don't think they actually killed for slenderman, but I don't think it's impossible.


  11. #71
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    feels like we are getting off on a tangent here. We do not have any reason to believe there is a cult angle to this case.

    MOO
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlcya View Post
    feels like we are getting off on a tangent here. We do not have any reason to believe there is a cult angle to this case.

    MOO
    I don't think there's an actual cult (as I think I very clearly stated), but there's now hard evidence that some trolls at 4chan think it's funny to pretend there is one.

    Fake but, it could have an effect on impressionable kids. People like that could be looking for a thrill by messing with kids' heads more than even is visible on the various sites' comment boxes.
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  13. #73
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    I think before I speculate further on someone communicating with the girls I may just sit back for a bit.

    I see a lot of crazy behavior and attention centered on the slenderman now. Which is not surprising because trolls do love a good meal. But because some ^$$hats are out there stirring up stuff and pretending to be or represent this fictional construct NOW after all the press, does not quite get me to where I need to be to believe that this was going on before the girls and that they were exposed to something like it and it factors into their decision to try to kill their "friend".

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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlcya View Post
    feels like we are getting off on a tangent here. We do not have any reason to believe there is a cult angle to this case.

    MOO
    She never said their was a cult angle. Just used it as an analogy to speak to how people can come to believe in the unbelievable, and yes kill themselves and others for it. It was completely on topic due to the nature of this case and the fact that two 12 year old girls have stated that tried to kill for Slenderman, to prove that they were worthy to him, and to prove to others that he was real. If you go on creepy pasta and read the commentary there, there is a person speaking as "slenderman" and there are posters who believe he is real and those that don't. The commenter posting as or for Slenderman definitely eggs believers on and this occurred before the actual crime was committed "in his name". This also happens on the "Official" Slenderman twitter account.

    We are speaking to what may or may not have been going through the heads of AW and MG and how two children could have committed such a horrific crime in the name of a fictional character on the internet.

    Adults do that for and in the name of God every single day around the world. That is what the analogy was speaking too.

    Maybe, just maybe, for whatever reasons, they had convinced themselves that he was in fact real. However, that is not an excuse whatsoever for what they did to this poor victim.
    Last edited by Spice; 06-10-2014 at 12:02 AM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spice View Post
    However, that is not an excuse whatsoever for what they did to this poor victim.
    Absolutely.

    I think these girls need to be locked up for quite some time, regardless of what, if anything, prompted them to stab their friend 19 times.

    Wanting to understand, speculating on the "how" does NOT equate to "looking for excuses". I don't know how that even becomes an issue of contention here on WS where I can't imagine ANYone thinking they should get off lightly. It's a bit offensive, really.
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