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  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abcdefgh View Post
    As for the mechanics of "framing" him, it would be very simple. Those specific murders might have been chosen because they allowed the widest possible number of suspects and there had never been a prime suspect. Once those specific murders were chosen, the person arranging the set up would simply look at arrests from that time period that involved any sort of violence, in this case an assault, and monitor the news for a hook to hang the "frame" on. They could have had hundreds of potential patsies. One day Bittrollf's brother gets charged with beating his wife or whatever they review the context, make a final examination of the suspect, go over the case files and purge anything that doesn't fit.

    Just speculation but it fits better for me than the official version, unless somebody can give some weight to the dna evidence beyond "a bunch of cops and their buddies say so".
    I can't prove it didn't happen that way but will say it takes quite a feat of mental gymnastics just to hold the theory together. Things do tend to look fishy when all you look for is fish, and with persistence and the right type of bait some can't resist latching right on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abcdefgh View Post
    Some other questions if somebody who followed the trial knows.

    1) Was Bittrolff's position ever that he did have sex with either or any victim?

    2) He seems to have switched from an out of the loop local lawyer to a high priced legal team with extensive connections to the local establishment. Who paid for that lawyer?
    He initially denied, maybe he still does. It sounds like he knew they had him dead to rights but even with the evidence presented still organised enough to deny ever seeing the two victims. He would take his chances with a jury. We kind of expected a little more hoopla when the trial started but as marble documented there wasn't much media attention, which of course fueled our speculation. I don't know how that lawyer got brought in but I could see those that believe in his innocence could cobble together a good defense. As it turned out no defense is sufficient when a jury decides the evidence against you is beyond reasonable doubt.

    LE would've had the unknown sample that matched from the two victims on their books for all these years as well as in codis. There it lay until the push came to identify this known serial killer that was operating twenty years earlier. speculation is the push came because of the lack of evidence in the ocean parkway cases. so they went all in on another known SK case in the area and within a reasonable time proximity in which dna was on file looking for a link to more current cases. Apparently no link exists. However this came about, the fact that they got his azz for what they could prove he did is a good thing.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abcdefgh View Post
    Actually the scary part is that they are the same species as us. The only thing that makes them different is the badge. When the pope gets a badge he will do exactly the same.

    At the risk of annoying by overposting, here is one more observation about this case.

    The police seem to have made some subtle mistakes when they were cooking evidence. The similarities to carelessnesses in the case https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...ses-dna-appeal are interesting. There seems to be some peculiar reason why certain types of evidence are used to frame somebody, and why that evidence is so resistant to being discredited no matter how many experts disavow it.
    I wondered about psychopaths being a process in evolution to secure the existence of our species. However, I think they are evil and fully understand that when love wanes, it is often replaced by fear. Those who respond to fear in an unbalanced way are easily controlled.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  3. #663
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    Here's a refresher of how the bodies were found:
    Ex-detective testifies about finding body in Bittrolff trial
    Smith, Andrew. Newsday, Combined editions; Long Island, N.Y. [Long Island, N.Y]05 May 2017.
    Rathjen narrated a crime scene video taken the day McNamee's body was found. He described walking through brush south of the eastbound on-ramp at Exit 68... until a blue winter jacket was visible. A bit farther along, there was a pair of socks, one sneaker, some stretch pants and a pair of black jeans. Police searched the area after getting an anonymous call about the body.
    And then there was McNamee's body, posed similarly to the way Tangredi's body was found... - naked on her back, legs spread with one arm over her head. Like Tangredi, her skull had been crushed...

    Biancavilla has argued that Bittrolff is the killer because DNA from his semen was found on both bodies. He also said the similar poses and wood chips found on both bodies are significant, because of Bittrolff's work as a carpenter.
    But as with Tangredi's body, no wood chips were visible in crime scene photos of McNamee's body...
    In the years since the killings, the Suffolk Police Department destroyed the wood chips collected from both crime scenes, without ever photographing them. The department also destroyed wood shavings collected from the police car used by then-Sgt. Michael Murphy - since promoted to lieutenant - who was a suspect in the killings in 1998.
    Keahon suggested in his opening statement that police did that to protect Murphy, who was the son of Thomas Murphy, the department's chief of detectives at the time...
    There's still the matter of these illusive wood chips/shavings/sawdust... Were they a red herring from the beginning since they weren't ever visible? Either way, the press calling them "chips" or "shavings" was very misleading in terms of particulate size (and a personal pet peeve for me).

    The way the victims were found -posed, beaten, partially clothed, and Rita partially buried has differences and similarities to some other cases. The only LISK cases I can recall where the victims were partially clothed were Sugar Bear and Asian Male. There are a few cases of bodies partially covered/buried (several Manorville cases, Lattington Jane Doe, Lewis R. Johnson) and/or beaten (afaik Asian Male might be the only one who for sure was).
    Last edited by WesternArtist; 08-12-2017 at 03:11 PM.
    "Intelligence, as well, is really a kind of taste: taste in ideas. (One of the facts to be reckoned with is that taste tends to develop very unevenly. It's rare that the same person has good visual taste and good taste in people and taste in ideas.)" -Susan Sontag


  4. #664
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    I hear you, Abcdefgh. I would have had a difficult time coming up with a guilty verdict as well. But the logic LR1 laid out is where I end up in the end. That DNA had to have been entered in the system way back when. If the DNA was "recently discovered" or some such thing I'd be on the side of the fence that there's enough reasonable doubt that he shouldn't have been convicted. It's interesting he and his wife were living together back at the time of the murders, I somehow missed that. I assumed that he was able to largely resist those impulses once he was in a stable relationship as past serial killers sometimes have. I agree with Western Artist that it's worth seeing if the murders he was convicted of are related to additional victims over the years.

    The "wood chips" evidence that wasn't is weird- especially since that "evidence" made it into a ton of articles long before the DNA matched Bittrolff or he was even on their radar. As far as the "no condom" thing- I don't agree that logic dictates he wouldn't have foregone one- someone who is going to rape/murder a prostitute isn't necessarily thinking about personal safety or, to be blunt, squeamishness about contamination of most kinds. If you read statistics about prostitution and violence, and prostitution and the spread of HIV, many, many prostitutes report being either forced or intimidated into not using a condom by clients.

  5. #665
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    Here is an opinion on the last few comments, I don't feel like messing with the multiquote thing.

    LR1, maybe I didn't articulate the possibility well.

    1) A small group of individuals may have wanted to "solve" a local high profile case similar to the lisk case. Their motive might have been something other than "solving a crime", such that it didn't matter which crime it was as long as it was similar and it didn't matter who the suspect was, so long as he was plausible both for that crime and the lisk crimes.

    2) They could easily find a crime, like these murders, then decide it suited their purposes so they would "solve" it.

    3) The next step would be assembling a list of possible suspects, perhaps several hundred people who had some sort of assault or sex conviction in the rough time frame of the original crime, then carefully weed out any possible suspects who could not have been the killer.

    4) Assuming the "familial dna" was an extra flourish to give credibility to the prosecution, the next step would be to wait for a family member of anybody on the list to commit a crime. Bittrolff's brother hit his wife or something, went to jail, got dna taken, the end.

    The core point is that there is one piece of evidence against him. The dna. Is there some other evidence? So the entire case hinges on that one piece of evidence. You may feel it is authentic. I doubt it's authenticity until and unless it is presented by some authority I trust. The police and prosecutor in this case do not fall in that category.

    Do other elements that are known tend to support or negate the presented evidence, if a person is willing to require that the evidence be valid? The other elements of the case so far, at least from what I've seen, do not support the prosecution case.

    You say
    he knew they had him dead to rights
    and I scratch my head. I don't get how you can suppose that unless you presuppose he is guilty. Are you presupposing he is guilty, and therefore you are not interested in examining the authenticity of the only piece of evidence presented against him?

    ---

    maddalena1, psychopaths might be a step in evolution. You look at the word psych meaning mind and path meaning disease. The problem is that psychopathology is mostly subjective. If a person has a broken arm you can say yes, it is broken, it doesn't work. But with the mind there is no question most of what people do is "reaction" not action. So who is to say a particular reaction is pathological? It may be a healthy response to some pathology in society that most people have learned not to react to?

    ---

    WesternArtist, It's interesting how they found the bodies. If I recall the prosecution said that they had sperm which indicated the killer had sex with the victims within an hour of death or so? Point being then they must have found the bodies shortly after the women were killed? Since looking at that kind of evidence in the Rodney Reed case it seems strangely like a particular type of evidence police have difficulty presenting accurately as evidence.

    The wood shavings are interesting certainly. A police officer who was a suspect had wood shavings in his car and the bodies had wood shavings? Now that evidence has disappeared and morphed into particulate glass, wood, plastic etc?

    ---

    marble, There has always, always, always been a problem with 'law enforcers' fabricating evidence. Some cops see it as a game to see what they can get away with. Look at scarcelli. Google 'scarcelli' and there is not one article about him in the first page. Google 'corruption scarcelli' without quotes and there are two articles out of ten on the first page about him. Google 'corruption louis scarcelli' without quotes and there is only 1????? His specialty was cases like this and he solved them. My guess is that, based on the evidence so far, these murders were solved in the style of Scarcelli.

    So how would dna evidence be fabricated? I don't know. But I guarantee, 100%, if the defense did not spent a lot of time at trial verifying the dna evidence and its continuity, then something is majorly not right.
    Last edited by Abcdefgh; 08-13-2017 at 10:03 PM.

  6. #666
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    I'll make an outline of what I think are the relevent background facts, anybody can correct anything that is wrong.

    In 1979 a boy was killed, possibly by his father

    For whatever reason the father was not prosecuteable so the police picked up some neighbor boys and beat them into confessing.

    To provide a little extra evidence they got a "low-level burglar and drug dealer" to corroborate that they had arrested the right people. As time went on the confessions and convictions became suspect and some of the people may have been released, I don't recall.

    The drug dealer they used evidently realized at some point that he "owned" some pretty powerful people, i.e., he could destroy the careers of those who had gotten him to give bad testimony. He used this leverage to get hired as a cop despite his history, to get a bunch of his friends hired as cops over a period of years, and so on.

    Currently that drug dealer is in jail somewhere. The big question among his many 'pals', is whether he is giving them up. There are probably dozens or more of people in million dollar long island houses who wonder every day " Is Chief Burke going to burn us?"

    They are scrambling to correct image issues and one of the biggest is the possible connections between lisk and Suffolk police.

    Common sense that if the locals solve a cold murder like that shortly after they start to smell something burning under them, as in they are about to be cooked... that murder better be pretty well solved, and it isn't. Just from context, without examining evidence, a person should be suspicious about this case. But after examining the evidence a person should be absolutely paranoid. Unless the defense proved that the dna was collected, archived, recorded in an unfalsifiable way, this case should be examined thoroughly.

  7. #667
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    One thing to factor in here is that while detectives were credited with "solving" these cases, it was really the Probation Office that should be recognized and commended. Although the narrative of a frame job may seem more plausible than detectives magically solving 20 year old cold cases, the reality is it was the routine work of an under-appreciated Probation Officer, Elena Mackie who actually did this -which is actually very believable IMO. Here are a few articles about the DNA collection/hit:
    Donald Grauer, senior probation officer and president of the Suffolk County Probation Officers Association, said probation officers play a key role in the criminal justice system by collecting DNA evidence of those convicted and assigned to probation. He said Mackie’s mandated collection of Bittrolff’s brother’s DNA was the catalyst in solving these murders.

    https://www.longislandadvance.net/904/DNA-nails-suspect

    I was very disappointed at the lack of acknowledgment of the outstanding work of the Suffolk County probation officer whose work helped lead to a suspect in two killings.
    http://www.newsday.com/opinion/lette...tter-1.8937316
    (MSM links compliments of PictureSnatcher )
    Last edited by WesternArtist; 08-14-2017 at 02:50 PM.
    "Intelligence, as well, is really a kind of taste: taste in ideas. (One of the facts to be reckoned with is that taste tends to develop very unevenly. It's rare that the same person has good visual taste and good taste in people and taste in ideas.)" -Susan Sontag


  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by WesternArtist View Post
    One thing to factor in here is that while detectives were credited with "solving" these cases, it was really the Probation Office that should be recognized and commended. Although the narrative of a frame job may seem more plausible than detectives magically solving 20 year old cold cases, the reality is it was the routine work of an under-appreciated Probation Officer, Elena Mackie who actually did this -which is actually very believable IMO. Here are a few articles about the DNA collection/hit:

    https://www.longislandadvance.net/904/DNA-nails-suspect


    http://www.newsday.com/opinion/lette...tter-1.8937316
    (MSM links compliments of PictureSnatcher )


    I'm sorry to be pushy about this but...

    The assumption is

    a) There was dna collected at the time of the initial crime in 1993. Is there a link that somebody can provide that substantiates that?

    b) That evidence would have been entered into a database with some kind of identifier that would correlate to the genetic profile. Is there any evidence that indicates when that was done?

    As far as I'm concerned, a few days after Bittroff's brother was arrested, somebody entered the dna evidence into the database with a 'sorry this was late, backlogged' note. Is there disproof of that?

    Was the supposed dna evidence from the crime entered into the database somewhat later than people guess?

    -

    add From your link
    Among the woodchips, there was also “a number of” trace evidence collected at the scene that can link Bittrolff to the murders through his profession. “The significance of the wood chips and quite frankly the other trace evidence is now being examined by our forensic scientists and I suspect all the other trace evidence is also very common to the defendant’s occupation, a carpenter,” said Spota. “The woodchips that were found at the crime scenes of both Tangredi and McNamee were also found at the scene of Sandra Castilla [a possible third victim].”
    Did this work out as expected or did the prince of darkness Spota not realize that evidence had been lost?
    Last edited by Abcdefgh; 08-14-2017 at 08:51 PM.

  9. #669
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    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/07/...-case-murders/

    But Spota said besides the killer leaving the woman in similar and unique poses, he also took a vital clue from each of them that will remain a secret until trial
    Interesting that if you search on google for results by a specific time period, Google does not index any reference to the crime until about the time of lisk

    http://archive.longislandpress.com/2...rial-killer/6/

    On one amateur crime-fighting message board, members are throwing around possible connections: Both women in Manorville were found north of the Expressway and chopped up, both men were found south of the Expressway and were untouched. Three other prostitutes were found dead—Gail Belfield, 30, in Wyandanch in 1995 from a gunshot wound to the chest, Colleen McNamee, 20, of Holbrook and Rita Tangredi-Beinlich, 31, of East Patchogue who died from strangulation in 1994 and discovered in different locations. Could these be related to the Gilgo murders? Manorville murders? The woman discovered on Newbridge Road was in a suitcase, so was the woman who washed up in Mamaroneck. And Melissa Barthelemy’s sister was taunted from the dead woman’s cell phone by a caller traced to the Port Authority area—the same place Jessica Taylor was last seen alive before her body turned up in Manorville.
    Now

    http://www.indyeastend.com/Articles-...SE-KILLER.html

    How did Sgt. Leser come to lead the cold case team that cracked the Bittrolff case?

    "I joined NYPD in 1984," he said. "I transferred to Suffolk PD in 1986. So I was on the job in Suffolk PD when these murders took place. I wasn't working the case but I heard about them and if you're a cop, a parent, a decent human being you want to see justice when someone does something like that to anyone. These were savage murders committed by a really bad guy. Horrible."

    Leser rose in the ranks of the Suffolk PD as the unsolved Tangredi-Beinlich/McNamee murders went gradually cold. "When I became a homicide detective I worked on some horrible cases," he said.

    "I was too busy working other new cases to think much about the Tangredi/McNamee cold case murders. But at the time of those murders -- 1993, 1994 -- DNA was relatively new. There was no national CODIS -- Combined DNA Index System -- data base the way we had for fingerprints. But the original detectives discovered semen in both women. In one victim it was present anally and vaginally. One just vaginally. DNA was good enough back then to determine that it was from the same man. Even though there was no CODIS, the original detectives carefully preserved that DNA, hoping that someday it might find a match."

    ...

    Three women killed in similar fashion within three months. "There was no semen in Sandra Costilla," said Sgt. Leser. "But like Tangredi and McNamee her left shoe was missing."

    Like a serial killer's trophy.

    ...

    During the homicide squad's sweep of the Patchogue netherworld John Bittrolff was never questioned because although he'd been arrested for a DWI and a bar fight, he had no history of contact with prostitutes. He also had no DNA on file in the newly established CODIS.

    ...

    "The Tangredi and McNamee families would call from time to time to see if there was anything new," saidLeser. "Rita McNamee's brother is a city cop and so he stayed particularly interested. When it's your family and someone does something like that to your own flesh and blood you try to bury the grief but you never forget. You want justice. Tangredi's son Anthony grew up and made inquiries. But we never had much to tell the families except that we would never give up on the case. We always had hope."

    ...

    "A secondary hit came back," said Leser. "I had to go to the lab and ask them to please narrow it down. Bittrolff had a slew of cousins in the area. We had to know if they could get a closer match. The lab ran new tests and said it was a sibling. We knew the person who left the same DNA in two murdered women was a male from the Bittrolff family. It wasn't Timmy Bittrolff. So it had to be either one of his two brothers – Kevin or John. John was the oldest and the most likely suspect. We set up a five-man surveillance team and began to follow both brothers."

    "John knew we were tailing him," said Leser. "Which sent signals that he was dirty. He never left behind a paper cup, a used tissue, a drinking straw that we could use to run a DNA match on. But after days of surveillance, Kevin, who was up visiting from Florida, driving a sports car with a Florida plate, was driving south on William Floyd Parkway one night when he flicked cigarette out of the driver's window."

    Screeeeeech.

    The homicide detectives hit the brakes. They stopped all traffic on the busy highway. As Kevin Bittrolff's sports car sped off, the smoldering cigarette butt rolled toward the shoulder.

    "We retrieved the cigarette, placed it in an evidence bag, and rushed it to the lab," says Leser. "We waited. It came back as another secondary familial DNA match. Which meant that John Bittrolff was now our prime suspect."

    Still, John Bittrolff did not discard anything that would offer a DNA sample.

    "I soon learned biological things I never knew about the female body," says Leser. "When semen enters a woman's body her system reacts as if it's a foreign invader and attacks it, breaking it down and degrading it fairly quickly. In order for as much spermatozoa with tails still attached to be present in each victim meant that she must have died within hours of the sex. And the DNA in the semen in both cases belonged to John Bittrolff."

    ...

    Then Det. Sgt. Leser went back to work on another homicide in Suffolk County.
    Something is very wrong with this case.

    -

    edit to add

    http://www.newsday.com/long-island/s...says-1.9968749

    A Suffolk judge has denied a murder defendant's motion to see a police internal affairs report that may question the credibility of the detectives who investigated him.
    State Supreme Court Justice William Condon ruled that the report and personnel files of Det. Ronald Tavares and Det. Sgt. Charles Leser would not be relevant at the trial of Shawn Lawrence because the Suffolk district attorney's...
    Last edited by Abcdefgh; Today at 01:47 AM.

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