MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #9

The fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager Saturday by a police officer in a St. Louis suburb came after a struggle for the officer’s gun, police officials said Sunday, in an explanation that met with outrage and skepticism in the largely African-American community.The killing of the youth, Michael Brown, 18, ignited protests on Saturday and Sunday in Ferguson, Mo., a working-class suburb of about 20,000 residents. Hundreds of people gathered at the scene of the shooting to question the police and to light candles for Mr. Brown, who was planning to begin college classes on Monday.
Mr. Brown’s stepfather, Louis Head, held a cardboard sign that said, “Ferguson police just executed my unarmed son.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/11/us/police-say-mike-brown-was-killed-after-struggle-for-gun.html


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?253372-Police-shooting-of-unarmed-teenager-Michael-Brown-St-Louis&p=10861113&posted=1#post10861113

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-teen-Michael-Brown-2&p=10867195#post10867195

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Please continue here: :tyou:

CoolJ said:

Because maybe the struggle was about not letting Wilson shoot him. Maybe he was merely trying to save his own life. Can you see how that is a possibility?

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At the very start of the case I would see it as a valid possibility. My dad was a defense attorney in Berkeley and I grew up hearing lots of horror stories from his clients. I know many cops can be cutthroat and corrupt.

But at this point, with what I have seen and read so far, I highly doubt that. I see MB as the aggressor because he was already in a very rebellious aggressive mode. The cop had already passed the teens by. He wasn't even going to stop, until they themselves decided NOT to follow his directives to get out of the middle of the road. They were amped up after their little robbery and had the stolen merchandise on them. Purposely calling attention to themselves, then defying the cops orders to step up on the sidewalk tells me that MB was in a reckless, devil may care mode.

I believe very little of Dorians version of events. Just enough to clue me in to the basics. Cop backed car up to confront them, and was bum rushed, blindsided by a huge strong agitated perp who did not want to be arrested. :moo:

CoolJ said:

Because maybe the struggle was about not letting Wilson shoot him. Maybe he was merely trying to save his own life. Can you see how that is a possibility?

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In my opinion, why would there be a need for MB to struggle with LE IF MB had obeyed the LE's orders to get out of the middle of the street and stop blocking traffic? In my opinion, LE would not shoot a suspect at around 12 noon in broad daylight on a Saturday within view of so many of the residents of the apartment complex.
During the several times I have been stopped for speeding in my lifetime, I have not argued with LE. Even if I thought I had not been speeding, I would never have dreamed of arguing with LE. In my opinion, LE deserves respect.

I KNEW this would happen. Was in the process of responding to multiple posts and the thread closed. lol. Thank goodness I copied before hitting send.

Phoebeb said:

Wow, this new video looks like it shot right after the shooting- I don't think we have seen one shot that soon so far. I still think there may be a video out there that records the entire incident.

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I don't. I do think there may be video of the actual shooting but if there was video of that I would think it would have been released. Someone would have been out selling it to the highest bidder to make a buck or even youtubing it to show how the officer shot down the unarmed teen. Because I believe that the beginning of the interaction between MB and DW was the catalyst for all that came after. I think it would be very unlikely that someone would happen to be filming two young men walking down the middle of the street as a police car was rolling up behind them wanting to get past. Because at that point in the events of that day, nobody could possibly know that something was about to go horribly awry.

bettybaby00 said:

k, my take on this new video after only one viewing….

he makes a couple of compelling statements:

*MBs arms are in the window of the car, says Brady (OMG i just got the architect joke from yesterday :facepalm while making punching motions with his fists
*tries to walk that statement back when asked if MB is punching officer, when 1st asked says, "i don't know YET? (YET?????? what does that mean?)
*when asked again, he says he used that arm motion to "show how his (MBs) arms are in the window" (aren't you then mimicking MBs actions????)
*asked if OW is punching MB, and says "yes, his arms are moving ALSO"..while again using punching motions with his own arms
*uses the words altercation and punching
*says DJ was at the front of the car, not next to MB
*doesn't see entire event b/c at start he is inside his apt., and as MB breaks away from the car he goes downstairs to street level (outside?) to watch the rest. does not specify how far that is, and i'm not sure what he says about how long it took him.
*says he didn't hear if there was a gunshot "at the car"

didn't hear the rest clearly b/c i was typing and listening at the same time.




oh man, toward the end they play Tiffany's statement concerning MBs arms being raised and OW continuing to shoot at him, and asks, is that how you saw it? WTF????

*Brady says i didn't really see his hands up

OMG anchor says "well your word choices may be different but I think you're stories are the same. WTF??????

overal take aways…..
i think if questioned by the police or the Feds, i'm not sure what he'd say. he sounds sure of certain things, but not others.
this anchor is a try hard, and attempts to get him to make statements that the anchor wants to hear. IMO

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I found him the most honest of the witnesses so far frankly. He said what he saw and what assumptions he was making based on what he was seeing but distinguished what he actually could say he saw clearly and what he thought he was seeing but could not be sure of. He was some distance away. He assumed there was struggle involving both men through the window of the squad car. His assumption was punches but he could not say definitively.

SStarr33 said:

Welcome Iwazaru!!

I posted earlier that we needed a fact thread for this case, but what we might need is a media thread. What do you guys think? There are tons of interviews--some of them are old and I am just now seeing them.

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A media thread would be very helpful. Maybe even one for tweets and another for articles/videos. Of course a media thread is only going to be as useful as we make it by stocking it with links and snips for ease of finding things we want to reference later.

Muffet said:

I'm with you. Don't you love all the uses of "may"? LOL

For some reason, my favorite after the "blow" oops is, "and at some point the officer's gun may have come out and a shot's fired."

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May have come out sounds so gosh darn spontaneous. lol. Notice he does not feed us the story DJ did during the first two days which was that DW pulled MB into the open window of the car and pulled his gun pointing at MB while saying "I'm going to shoot you" Ludicrous. Smart enough to stay away from trying to push that particular BS. Instead the gun may have just mysteriously "come out"

ScarlettScarpetta said:

So what if MB has a record? That has nothing to do with this case. Nothing. The only thing that matters is this day.

There are so many good people that did stupid things as kids. Thankfully they did not end up dead.
I don't think this kid was a saint. But I am not sure that makes him the devil either.

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Respectfully disagree. If MB has a juvie record that features violence, gross disrespect for authority figures it absolutely goes to his possible state of mind and method of dealing with others on that day.

AuburnTxTiger said:

In my opinion, if MB does have a juvenile record of bullying, assault, or attempted murder, it does matter. In my opinion, that would show pattern of behavior.

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Yep.

ETA as would any documented racism or incidences or complaints of abuse of power against DW

MOO

Great video editorial from Anchor Jim Vance NBC Washington, DC
News4 Anchor Jim Vance on why he thinks protesters, media and politicians should make their way out of Ferguson, Missouri and make way for grassroots, community change.
http://www.nbcwashington.com/video/...local/Vances-View--Leaving-Ferguson/272366991

AuburnTxTiger said:

As I just posted minutes ago, IF MB had a juvenile record containing bullying, armed robbery, strong armed robbery, use of a gun, attempted murder, etc., it would make a huge difference. It would show a pattern of behavior. This is my opinion. I am not here to argue.

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I believe the GJ will look at several things and only A: Did MB assault the police officer? Yes or No. Making no difference whether he used the cruiser door as a to do it, or punched him in the face. Either way he assaulted the officer which is a felony. B: Did the officer have a reasonable reason to fear for his life or more bodily harm? Even with that absent, as a Felon he is authorized by MO Statute to pursue and use deadly force. IF he attempted to grab the officer's gun it only adds insult to injury. C: Did MB actually have his hands in the air to surrender? IF so, was he in that position long enough for the officer to react and retreat? If one looks at the recent video of the man shot a couple days ago nearby. It only took about 3 seconds to pump I believe 9 bullets in him.

All the business about MB's education, juvenile record, good kid or bad kid even the prior misdemeanor prior to the shooting has nothing to do with whether the officer had the right to take the actions he did. However I do believe that did factor into the way MB approached the officer in an aggressive way. In his mind he thought he was being busted for what he had just done.

JMO

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/22/michael-brown-grand-jury_n_5701455.html


Grand Jury
'There are three black people on the grand jury, one man and two women. The rest of the jury comprises six white men and three white women. The demographics of the jury roughly coincide with the racial makeup of St. Louis County itself, which is 68 percent white and 24 percent black. But race has already played a major role in this case, as it has garnered international attention and sparked conversation about racial discrimination and inequality prompting demonstrators to protest nationwide.'

Can a legal Eagle here tell us if there are ever judicial judgements given to juveniles where a reduced sentence is contingent upon avoiding getting caught for more criminal behavior once adulthood is reached?

Details about that would be interesting, since it might add even more motivation to avoid arrest.

OK how about this. Let's just say that MB did walk over to the window and started throwing punches unprovoked. Let's say the gun was in the holster and MB went for it and somehow we knew his intent was to kill. But he couldn't get the gun so he ran away... Is it still ok for A LEO to gun him down as he is walking away or is the proper response to Point your gun at him and order him to raise his hands and get on his knees?

This Dorian character.... FBI will get the truth out of him, same with the female eye witnesses. They will put this story together. But will those in power allow the full story to be revealed? That is the question..

CoolJ said:

OK how about this. Let's just say that MB did walk over to the window and started throwing punches unprovoked. Let's say the gun was in the holster and MB went for it and somehow we knew his intent was to kill. But he couldn't get the gun so he ran away... Is it still ok for A LEO to gun him down as he is walking away or is the proper response to Point your gun at him and order him to raise his hands and get on his knees?

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He wasn't shot while walking away. He was shot as he was coming back towards DW.

CoolJ said:

OK how about this. Let's just say that MB did walk over to the window and started throwing punches unprovoked. Let's say the gun was in the holster and MB went for it and somehow we knew his intent was to kill. But he couldn't get the gun so he ran away... Is it still ok for A LEO to gun him down as he is walking away or is the proper response to Point your gun at him and order him to raise his hands and get on his knees?

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If it happened the way you explained in your scenario, YES, LE could shoot him. (fleeing felon who is dangerous to society or LE)

I posted the link many times in these threads. If you would like it again, please let me know.
However, all shots were to the front.

LIVE link: http://t.co/vrhKVwLm4p

katydid23 said:

At the very start of the case I would see it as a valid possibility. My dad was a defense attorney in Berkeley and I grew up hearing lots of horror stories from his clients. I know many cops can be cutthroat and corrupt.

But at this point, with what I have seen and read so far, I highly doubt that. I see MB as the aggressor because he was already in a very rebellious aggressive mode. The cop had already passed the teens by. He wasn't even going to stop, until they themselves decided NOT to follow his directives to get out of the middle of the road. They were amped up after their little robbery and had the stolen merchandise on them. Purposely calling attention to themselves, then defying the cops orders to step up on the sidewalk tells me that MB was in a reckless, devil may care mode.

I believe very little of Dorians version of events. Just enough to clue me in to the basics. Cop backed car up to confront them, and was bum rushed, blindsided by a huge strong agitated perp who did not want to be arrested. :moo:

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I agree. I can't logically stretch my mind to believe that MB was trying to save his own life, or that he was even fearful for his life.

*MB showed no fear when he stole from, assaulted and then intimidated the storekeeper
*MB showed no fear when he decided to walk in the middle of the road when there was a sidewalk available
*MB showed no fear when he refused a direct request from LE to stop walking in the road
*MB showed no fear when he reached in the car to strike LE
*MB showed no fear when he tried to get LE gun

BTW, remember when we heard on Wed about proof that MB had touched Officer Wilson's gun? Have we heard anything further about that?

TexanMom said:

He wasn't shot while walking away. He was shot as he was coming back towards DW.

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Oh goodness gracious... No that is another assumption. Most eye witness reports have him being shot at while walking away. Those bullet holes on the ventral side of his arm are what is exposed from behind. Either that or arms overhead. Notice I am saying that is what was reported. I am not stating anything as fact. It's cool if you believe this was a justified killing , nothing wrong with having an opinion. <mod snip>

JLSChook said:

If it happened the way you explained in your scenario, YES, LE could shoot him. (fleeing felon who is dangerous to society or LE)

I posted the link many times in these threads. If you would like it again, please let me know.
However, all shots were to the front.

Click to expand...

:fishy: :bored:

CoolJ said:

OK how about this. Let's just say that MB did walk over to the window and started throwing punches unprovoked. Let's say the gun was in the holster and MB went for it and somehow we knew his intent was to kill. But he couldn't get the gun so he ran away... Is it still ok for A LEO to gun him down as he is walking away or is the proper response to Point your gun at him and order him to raise his hands and get on his knees?

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I say it is not ok to gun him down as he is walking away. I hope DW is not guilty of any crime. However, I find the 4 witnesses that say he was shooting as MB walked away a big problem for DW.