The Eighth Pair of Underwear

BlueCrab · Jul 1, 2005

Among the items removed from the Ramseys house by the police were eight pairs of girls underwear. One pair was on JonBenet's body and was listed as "panties with floral print". This of course was the oversize 12/14 panties with Wednesday written on them. These had been taken from a newly-opened pack of days-of-the-week panties and apparently put on JonBenet postmortem after she had been wiped down.

The size six panties JonBenet had likely been wearing prior to the size 12/14's being put on her are assumed by us to be missing. However, perhaps they aren't missing.

For instance, the cops counted but didn't remove the 15 pairs of size 4's and size 6's from JonBenet's underwear drawer in her bathroom. According to the list of things taken were the one pair of 12/14's on the body, and "7 pairs, girls underwear". That makes eight pairs taken from the house by the cops. There were only seven pairs of size 12/14's. So that eighth pair had to be size 6's and were likely the "missing" pair of size six underwear JonBenet had to have been wearing prior to being wiped down and redressed in the size 12/14's.

Assuming this is what happened and the eighth pair of panties were the ones JonBenet wore to the White's dinner party, and the cops are in possession of them, the question to ask is: "Where were JonBenet's size six underwear found and what forensic evidence, if any, was on those size six underwear?"

BlueCrab

K777angel · Jul 1, 2005

Didn't they take some of her underwear from a laundry basket? I don't know why I seem to recall something about that.
Also, didn't she have a pair of "soiled" underpants on the floor? Those would be obvious to take I would assume.

Toltec · Jul 1, 2005

Yes Angel...the panties were taken from the laundry hamper but I didn't read where one pair were soiled.

My guess is that they do have a pair of soiled panties but do not want to release that information. If they did find the soiled panties, my guess would have been in the bathroom. If she left her soiled pants on the floor, my guess would be that she also left her soiled panties.

Shanny · Jul 1, 2005

Not to get off topic but I found a little bit information about JonBenet's underwear.

-Upon viewing the body, Patsy exclaimed that she had never before seen the underwear on her daughters corpse. Detectives later found out that Patsy had recently purchased that pair of underwear at Bloomingdales in New York for her 12-year-old niece, but that JonBenet begged to have it kept for her, so Patsy kept it for her. Prior to the murder, even friends of the family knew of this underwear story. If Patsy did recognize the distinctive underwear, and was lying, then she was trying to point the police to the exculpatory evidence, which she knew had been planted.

I can't just can't see any 6-year-old child begging for a pair of underwear,
a bike maybe but not a pair of underwear.

tipper · Jul 1, 2005

Source?

BlueCrab · Jul 1, 2005

K777angel said:
Didn't they take some of her underwear from a laundry basket? I don't know why I seem to recall something about that.
Also, didn't she have a pair of "soiled" underpants on the floor? Those would be obvious to take I would assume.

angel,

There was no evidence of soiled underwear being found on the floor; just soiled pants on the bathroom floor.

The seven pairs of day-of -the-week underwear (size 12/14) were all accounted for, so the eighth pair had to be size 6's. Yes, the missing size 6 underwear could have been in a laundry basket -- that would seem logical enough. The importance of the size 6's being found is they were likely worn all evening and up until, and perhaps during, the murder. There could be fiber, hair or DNA evidence on them.

UKGuy · Jul 1, 2005

BlueCrab said:
Among the items removed from the Ramseys house by the police were eight pairs of girls underwear. One pair was on JonBenet's body and was listed as "panties with floral print". This of course was the oversize 12/14 panties with Wednesday written on them. These had been taken from a newly-opened pack of days-of-the-week panties and apparently put on JonBenet postmortem after she had been wiped down.

The size six panties JonBenet had likely been wearing prior to the size 12/14's being put on her are assumed by us to be missing. However, perhaps they aren't missing.

For instance, the cops counted but didn't remove the 15 pairs of size 4's and size 6's from JonBenet's underwear drawer in her bathroom. According to the list of things taken were the one pair of 12/14's on the body, and "7 pairs, girls underwear". That makes eight pairs taken from the house by the cops. There were only seven pairs of size 12/14's. So that eighth pair had to be size 6's and were likely the "missing" pair of size six underwear JonBenet had to have been wearing prior to being wiped down and redressed in the size 12/14's.

Assuming this is what happened and the eighth pair of panties were the ones JonBenet wore to the White's dinner party, and the cops are in possession of them, the question to ask is: "Where were JonBenet's size six underwear found and what forensic evidence, if any, was on those size six underwear?"

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

I should guess at a minimum some fiber evidence, and potentially some more dna samples?

Also if they have the original size-12/14 bloomingdales then surely they could dna test those for markers and compare with what was sourced from the bloodstain?

There may be two pairs of size-4/6 pants missing or unnacounted for depending on how you see the timeline of events.

If JonBenet undressed out of those jeans and her underwear then changed into a clean pair prior to visiting the whites, then this is two pairs that have gone amiss, in the sense of possibly being relocated, e.g. evidence removal.

If this undressing event takes place on returning from the white's then this is evidence of another scenario, but with her underwear being deliberately removed!

This is probably anecdotal, but I remember reading somewhere that the bloomingdales were something that Patsy handed over to BPD many months afterwards along with other clothing, supposedly worn on the night of JonBenet's death?

Here is a list of itemized underwear as per the search warrant

1996 December 26 at 8:00 P.M. - From the 12-26-1996 Search Warrant - Inventory of Property removed from 755 15th Street

December 26, 1996 Search Warrant Page 9:
1. Panties with floral print

December 26, 1996 Search Warrant Page 13:
Underwear (9JRB)
2. Girls underwear (36BAH)
3. Girls underwear (56BAH)
4. (1) girls underwear (61BAH)
5. (1) girls underwear (62BAH)
6. Blue pair of girls underwear (76BAH)

December 26, 1996 Search Warrant Page 14:
7. Two pair of girls underwear (76BAH)

December 27, 1996 Search Warrant Page 6:
Pair of underwear (45BAB)
8. Childs underwear (57BAB)
9. Childs underwear (58BAB)
10. Childs underwear (59BAB)

December 27, 1996 Search Warrant Page 7:
Underwear (8JRB)
11. Girls underwear (36BAH)
12. Girls underwear-1 (56BAH)
13. Girls underwear-1 (61BAH)
14. Girls underwear-1 (62BAH)

14. Five pair of girls underwear (76BAH)
15. Two pair of girls underwear (77BAH)

Assuming the bold items refer to JonBenet's panties then there is 22 pairs listed, have I got this wrong, are some items listed as underwear other than panties?

BlueCrab · Jul 1, 2005

UKGuy said:
BlueCrab,

I should guess at a minimum some fiber evidence, and potentially some more dna samples?

Also if they have the original size-12/14 bloomingdales then surely they could dna test those for markers and compare with what was sourced from the bloodstain?

There may be two pairs of size-4/6 pants missing or unnacounted for depending on how you see the timeline of events.

If JonBenet undressed out of those jeans and her underwear then changed into a clean pair prior to visiting the whites, then this is two pairs that have gone amiss, in the sense of possibly being relocated, e.g. evidence removal.

If this undressing event takes place on returning from the white's then this is evidence of another scenario, but with her underwear being deliberately removed!

This is probably anecdotal, but I remember reading somewhere that the bloomingdales were something that Patsy handed over to BPD many months afterwards along with other clothing, supposedly worn on the night of JonBenet's death?

Here is a list of itemized underwear as per the search warrant

1996 December 26 at 8:00 P.M. - From the 12-26-1996 Search Warrant - Inventory of Property removed from 755 15th Street

December 26, 1996 Search Warrant Page 9:
1. Panties with floral print

December 26, 1996 Search Warrant Page 13:
Underwear (9JRB)
2. Girls underwear (36BAH)
3. Girls underwear (56BAH)
4. (1) girls underwear (61BAH)
5. (1) girls underwear (62BAH)
6. Blue pair of girls underwear (76BAH)

December 26, 1996 Search Warrant Page 14:
7. Two pair of girls underwear (76BAH)

December 27, 1996 Search Warrant Page 6:
Pair of underwear (45BAB)
8. Childs underwear (57BAB)
9. Childs underwear (58BAB)
10. Childs underwear (59BAB)

December 27, 1996 Search Warrant Page 7:
Underwear (8JRB)
11. Girls underwear (36BAH)
12. Girls underwear-1 (56BAH)
13. Girls underwear-1 (61BAH)
14. Girls underwear-1 (62BAH)

14. Five pair of girls underwear (76BAH)
15. Two pair of girls underwear (77BAH)

Assuming the bold items refer to JonBenet's panties then there is 22 pairs listed, have I got this wrong, are some items listed as underwear other than panties?

UKGuy,

This underwear count is unbelievably confusing. The search warrant of Dec 27 seems to again count the same underwear taken in accordance with the search warrant of Dec 26.

However, if your count of 22 is correct it corresponds with the 15 pairs of size 4's and 6's taken from the drawer in JonBenet's bathroom mentioned in the interviews, plus the seven pairs of 12/14's. Fifteen and seven equals 22.

However, if that number is correct, that leaves one pair of size six panties still missing -- the ones JonBenet wore to the Whites and was likely wearing when murdered later that night -- assuming, of course, that JonBenet didn't wear the oversized underwear to the Whites.

IOW, unless JonBenet wore size 12/14 underwear under her black velvet slacks to the White's dinner party, there's a pair of size six underwear still missing from the crime scene. Those missing size six's, if they exist, would likely have the killer's DNA all over them.

BlueCrab

Zman · Jul 1, 2005

Shanny said:
Not to get off topic but I found a little bit information about JonBenet's underwear.

-Upon viewing the body, Patsy exclaimed that she had never before seen the underwear on her daughters corpse. Detectives later found out that Patsy had recently purchased that pair of underwear at Bloomingdales in New York for her 12-year-old niece, but that JonBenet begged to have it kept for her, so Patsy kept it for her. Prior to the murder, even friends of the family knew of this underwear story. If Patsy did recognize the distinctive underwear, and was lying, then she was trying to point the police to the exculpatory evidence, which she knew had been planted.

I can't just can't see any 6-year-old child begging for a pair of underwear,
a bike maybe but not a pair of underwear.

A six year old child will beg for anything they desire. For some reason they often want things meant for others. Jealousy perhaps? Maybe even for cool "days of the week underware"..

narlacat · Jul 1, 2005

>>I can't just can't see any 6-year-old child begging for a pair of underwear,
a bike maybe but not a pair of underwear<<

Along the same lines, I was going to say
Spoiled kids want anything, however small and also, I think jealousy, that someone else is getting something that they arent.
But wasnt JonBenet bought a pack of her own? I thought so.

sissi · Jul 1, 2005

Jonbenet was considered, by many, to be generous and thoughtful , perhaps beyond her years. Could it be she wanted badly to keep the panties because she had already given a pair to a friend, a friend who didn't get such nice little "extras". She may have preferred to beg to keep them rather than admit she had already opened the package and given a pair away. This would suggest a "chubbier" or older child was the recipient. Why was, no one has ever been able to answer this, Arriana swabbed two years after they KNEW it was male dna in the panties?

Camper · Jul 3, 2005

My head is not working, but I cannot figure out how yall have determined that 'a' pair of panties are missing, I am s l o w, er, hmmm?

HOWever, while yall are counting panties, no one has wondered just HOW 'different' the size 12/14 panties were? Were they really, really, different and gorgeous? I remember that 'those' panties had the days of the week on them, which of course most 'little' girls panties don't have, or least did not have when I had my five little girls.

To a little girl who was just evolving out of babyhood, having the days of the week on them would have really been 'something to have of their very own'. IF IF there were flowers on them, wellllllllllllllll then, gotta have em. Plus IF each pair were a different color, wowee!

.

BlueCrab · Jul 3, 2005

Camper said:
My head is not working, but I cannot figure out how yall have determined that 'a' pair of panties are missing,

Camper,

The hypothesis that a pair of JonBenet's size six panties are missing is based on the assumption that she had been re-dressed postmortem in the fresh size 12/14 underwear she was wearing when the body was found. All seven of the size 12/14 underwear are accounted for (six pair still in the package and one pair on JonBenet), so the crucial eighth pair of underwear, which had to be size six, she wore to the White's dinner party and was likely wearing when murdered, are apparently missing.

Those missing size six underwear could have forensic evidence on them (DNA, fibers, etc.). They are not identified as such in the list of items removed from the house by the cops, nor are they mentioned in any publications of which I am aware.

BlueCrab

Zman · Jul 3, 2005

BlueCrab said:
Camper,

The hypothesis that a pair of JonBenet's size six panties are missing is based on the assumption that she had been re-dressed postmortem in the fresh size 12/14 underwear she was wearing when the body was found. All seven of the size 12/14 underwear are accounted for (six pair still in the package and one pair on JonBenet), so the crucial eighth pair of underwear, which had to be size six, she wore to the White's dinner party and was likely wearing when murdered, are apparently missing.

Those missing size six underwear could have forensic evidence on them (DNA, fibers, etc.). They are not identified as such in the list of items removed from the house by the cops, nor are they mentioned in any publications of which I am aware.

BlueCrab

Well the key word here is hypothesis. How can you determine that a pair of her underwear is missing unless you know how many she had to start with or exactly which ones she had on that evening?

BlueCrab · Jul 3, 2005

Zman said:
Well the key word here is hypothesis. How can you determine that a pair of her underwear is missing unless you know how many she had to start with or exactly which ones she had on that evening?

Zman,

We don't know, that's why it's a hypothesis. But it's reasonable to assume JonBenet didn't wear the size 12/14 panties to the White's dinner party. They would have noticeably bulged out under the tight-fitting black velvet slacks she was wearing. JonBenet likely was wearing normal size six panties that night. The oversized 12/14's were obviously put on her after death.

So she had to have been still wearing the size six panties when murdered. Where are they?

UKGuy · Jul 3, 2005

BlueCrab said:
Zman,

We don't know, that's why it's a hypothesis. But it's reasonable to assume JonBenet didn't wear the size 12/14 panties to the White's dinner party. They would have noticeably bulged out under the tight-fitting black velvet slacks she was wearing. JonBenet likely was wearing normal size six panties that night. The oversized 12/14's were obviously put on her after death.

So she had to have been still wearing the size six panties when murdered. Where are they?

BlueCrab,

I share your assumption. Lets assume JonBenet wore those size 12/14 panties to the White's dinner party. Why would she do that? Possibly she had just had an accident with her jeans and was covering up, so she told nobody, later she would be found dead wearing them!

If you consider this implausible due to them being evident beneath her black velvet pants.

What do you then think is the status of the underwear she removed along with her jeans, probably size-6's, has it been itemized and recorded, did the crime-scene photographs display these underwear inside or close to the jeans?

Or are these also missing as well as her original size-6's she wore to the Whites?

.

BlueCrab · Jul 3, 2005

UKGuy said:
What do you then think is the status of the underwear she removed along with her jeans, probably size-6's, has it been itemized and recorded, did the crime-scene photographs display these underwear inside or close to the jeans?

Or are these also missing as well as her original size-6's she wore to the Whites?

UKGuy,

You are correct. There would be two pairs of JonBenet's size six underwear missing. The most likely place to look, of course, would have been the laundry basket in the basement because the Ramseys didn't use clothes hampers; there were clothes chutes upstairs that emptied into the basement.

But the critical pair of underwear to examine is the pair she wore to the Whites and was likely wearing when murdered. There's never been any word of the cops recovering them and sending them to the CBI's forensic lab.

sissi · Jul 3, 2005

Surely they can determine if the size 12's were on her all day by examining them for fibers consistent with her black velvet pants and/or the tights she may have worn. This is something we do not know, I haven't seen any "leaks" pointing to an answer for this.

BlueCrab · Jul 4, 2005

sissi said:
Surely they can determine if the size 12's were on her all day by examining them for fibers consistent with her black velvet pants and/or the tights she may have worn. This is something we do not know, I haven't seen any "leaks" pointing to an answer for this.

Good point about the fibers sissi. However, I doubt if JonBenet would have worn oversized WHITE panties under tight black velvet slacks (the size 12/14's were white). Wouldn't the white tend to show through the black a little bit, causing the slacks to appear to be two shades of black? It seems she would have worn black panties under black slacks.

Also, if she had worn black underwear and they are missing, I wonder if her underwear was the missing wipedown cloth that left the mysterious black fibers on her inner thighs and folds of her labia.

BlueCrab

Bobbisangel · Jul 4, 2005

Zman said:
A six year old child will beg for anything they desire. For some reason they often want things meant for others. Jealousy perhaps? Maybe even for cool "days of the week underware"..

I can see her wanting to keep a pair of the size 12 so that she could be like her cousin. Little cousins look up to big cousins. How do we know that JB didn't wet her bed after she got home....take off her wet undies and put on the size 12 undies? Maybe that is why the wet panties were in the laundry.

Why would LE need to take every pair of undies the JB had? I don't understand the purpose of that. Why would they want clean undies folded up in her drawer?

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