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  1. #796
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    The lividity is in complete contradiction to any of Jay's versions of events. And my doubt of Adan's guilt is based on evidence, not on Jay--other than that there is a tape of one of his critical interviews, where he does appear to be prompted-and certainly has difficulty keeping his story straight. There are also a lot of valid questions around the defense attorney Syed had. She was suffering from late stages of MS and had taken on a larger work-load than would have been advisable, even for a healthy attorney. Her performance is also in question.

    Undisclosed and all the supporting blogs around that podcasts, present data to at the very least support a valid questioning of the outcome of this case. The findings are not conclusive, but definitely point to a need to revisit the evidence. I think Syed deserves a new trial.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orlaam View Post
    Poking holes is easily demonstrated in most criminal cases. Look at all the doubt in the OJ case that supporters of him have ushered in, never mind the fact that his blood was at the scene and the victims blood was found in his vehicle and home. Even Dr. Michael Baden claims that OJ couldn't have acted alone, but I disagree.

    You have to take into account that everyone has a bias. Have these pathologists reviewed every single photo? Did they actually see the body? You're also assuming people are experts based on title, or that mistakes are never made. I work in healthcare as an RN, and I can tell you, most doctors, nurses, and ancillary support have limited knowledge and make mistakes all the time. Every industry has that aspect of average knowledge, whereby a small minority can claim "expert" status.

    My point again, those who question Adnan's guilt seem to pick and choose the narrative that supports their theory. Either Jay was completely lying or he wasn't? The fact of the matter is that Jay pointed them to Hae's car. How could he have done that if he wasn't involved? That explicitly removes a random killing, associates Adnan with motive, and clearly sets the stage for a strong circumstantial case. You do realize most cases are circumstantial.

    Could the police have manipulated things to get the right story, or the story that made the most sense for filling in the holes to present to the court? Absolutely. Did Jay tell different versions of events to police? Yup. I do believe that Jay was more involved that he wants anyone to realize. In an ideal world he would be locked up as well. He was granted immunity in exchange for Adnan who he told actually killed Hae. Now if Adnan wasn't involved, how or why would Jay implicate him? That makes no sense.

    In terms of lividity, it is extremely plausible that Hae was buried a short time later and/or moved. Jay even said they returned to the site closer to midnight, which is a perfect time for the lividity claim. Besides, at what point does Jay recant any of his story or clear Adnan of the murder? He has only changed times and exactness to explain thing better and mostly make him look less guilty. That is what everyone does.

  2. #797
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    Not necessarily. If Jay is fabricating his story it isn't necessarily because he killed Hae, or that he even knows who did. Wilds was in a tough spot, because he was a low-level drug dealer who dealt out of his grandmother's home. Had LE gone after him for the drugs, due to forfeiture laws, his grandmother could have lost her home. Whether Wild's was coerced is not certain, but there are indications that he might have been coerced--or was deliberately lying in hopes of garnering favor with LE.

    Again, all the questions around the case are not presented as proof of Adnan's guilt or innocence, what they point to is a need for the case to be reexamined. There are major problems with the state's case--including the fact that Adnan appears to have an alibi for the time he is believed to have killed Hae. Asia McClain's testimony alone, warrants a new trial.

    Quote Originally Posted by MzOpinion8d View Post
    If Adnan wasn't involved, Jay would implicate him because if he didn't, Jay is the one who would have been accused of the murder.

  3. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by MzOpinion8d View Post
    If Adnan wasn't involved, Jay would implicate him because if he didn't, Jay is the one who would have been accused of the murder.
    And that's assuming that Adnan is innocent. Adnan never took the stand, and in fact with respect to Jay's proclamation of Adnan's guilt, Adnan simply says "I don't know". I don't know? I've seen nothing from Adnan to suggest that Jay might have killed her or who actually did. His voice of innocence has been weak at best.

    Not to mention, Jay had no motive at all. Unless he was paid by Adnan, but then again, there is little doubt the two were together that day.

  4. #799
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gracie2112 View Post
    The lividity is in complete contradiction to any of Jay's versions of events. And my doubt of Adan's guilt is based on evidence, not on Jay--other than that there is a tape of one of his critical interviews, where he does appear to be prompted-and certainly has difficulty keeping his story straight. There are also a lot of valid questions around the defense attorney Syed had. She was suffering from late stages of MS and had taken on a larger work-load than would have been advisable, even for a healthy attorney. Her performance is also in question.

    Undisclosed and all the supporting blogs around that podcasts, present data to at the very least support a valid questioning of the outcome of this case. The findings are not conclusive, but definitely point to a need to revisit the evidence. I think Syed deserves a new trial.
    The lividity does not contradict the version he told Intercept. The details that change are the actions that took place around 3 until late evening. I fully believe that Adnan murdered her, left her somewhere undiscovered then decided to return to bury her around midnight. The time between that is almost irrelevant. They were hanging out and trying to look "normal".

    I'm not sold on any police prompting. I think they were getting tired of him changing his mind and telling such wishy-washy details. They wanted a simple story to present to the court and jury. They probably stopped that tape so many times and told him to keep it simple, stop with the tangents. As far as that's concerned, why not stop the tape when you want to "prompt" him? My guess is that he would derail and after hours of talking they began to get sick of it and tap on the table and point to his statement, as to say "stick to one story and stay on track!". Again, I realize police are often corrupt, I get it. I also know many have been hung out to dry by police, but this required a starting point. Jay informed them of the car's whereabouts and he told a story, albeit loosely told, that points the finger at Adnan. The police were also called by someone and informed that they should look at Adnan. Why is that? Those calls happen for a reason.

    This is frankly one of those cases, where the more you look at the evidence, the more guilty he becomes. He had motive, time, was angry about being dumped and Hae dating again (October note reveals instability), has an associate pinning it on him, and has corrupt police, an inept lawyer, a shady prosecutor, and lord knows what else stacked again him. Talk about unlucky...eh?

    And Asia, well, you don't find her story a little suspect?? Why is she pining for his affection? Why does she care about how she spelt his name? Why is she uncertain of his guilt? Her story is bizarre and almost worthless.

    So I ask again, why did Jay finger Adnan? How did Jay know about the car? If Adnan wants people to believe he is innocent, then why admit that he was with Jay that day and allowing him to use his vehicle and phone if Jay has implicated him in a murder??

    As stated by a homicide detective in Baltimore: "The first rule of homicide investigation is this: everyone lies. The witnesses. The family. Everybody, no exceptions. The job of a cop is to find out who lied about what and why."

    Call me jaded and cynical after working in corporate debt collection and now mental health, but I fail to see how anyone could listen to Adnan and hear innocence. He sounds like all the manipulative liars I've dealt with over the years trying to scam their way through life.

  5. #800
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    How is frontal lividity consistent with Jay Wild's version of events? What does Asia McClain have to gain by lying?

    It's not a matter of listening to Adnan Syed, it's a matter of correctly interpreting the evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orlaam View Post
    The lividity does not contradict the version he told Intercept. The details that change are the actions that took place around 3 until late evening. I fully believe that Adnan murdered her, left her somewhere undiscovered then decided to return to bury her around midnight. The time between that is almost irrelevant. They were hanging out and trying to look "normal".

    I'm not sold on any police prompting. I think they were getting tired of him changing his mind and telling such wishy-washy details. They wanted a simple story to present to the court and jury. They probably stopped that tape so many times and told him to keep it simple, stop with the tangents. As far as that's concerned, why not stop the tape when you want to "prompt" him? My guess is that he would derail and after hours of talking they began to get sick of it and tap on the table and point to his statement, as to say "stick to one story and stay on track!". Again, I realize police are often corrupt, I get it. I also know many have been hung out to dry by police, but this required a starting point. Jay informed them of the car's whereabouts and he told a story, albeit loosely told, that points the finger at Adnan. The police were also called by someone and informed that they should look at Adnan. Why is that? Those calls happen for a reason.

    This is frankly one of those cases, where the more you look at the evidence, the more guilty he becomes. He had motive, time, was angry about being dumped and Hae dating again (October note reveals instability), has an associate pinning it on him, and has corrupt police, an inept lawyer, a shady prosecutor, and lord knows what else stacked again him. Talk about unlucky...eh?

    And Asia, well, you don't find her story a little suspect?? Why is she pining for his affection? Why does she care about how she spelt his name? Why is she uncertain of his guilt? Her story is bizarre and almost worthless.

    So I ask again, why did Jay finger Adnan? How did Jay know about the car? If Adnan wants people to believe he is innocent, then why admit that he was with Jay that day and allowing him to use his vehicle and phone if Jay has implicated him in a murder??

    As stated by a homicide detective in Baltimore: "The first rule of homicide investigation is this: everyone lies. The witnesses. The family. Everybody, no exceptions. The job of a cop is to find out who lied about what and why."

    Call me jaded and cynical after working in corporate debt collection and now mental health, but I fail to see how anyone could listen to Adnan and hear innocence. He sounds like all the manipulative liars I've dealt with over the years trying to scam their way through life.

  6. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gracie2112 View Post
    How is frontal lividity consistent with Jay Wild's version of events? What does Asia McClain have to gain by lying?

    It's not a matter of listening to Adnan Syed, it's a matter of correctly interpreting the evidence.
    Okay, lividity, if accurate, only reveals that she could have been placed elsewhere before being buried. IOW, in the trunk face down or in the bushes face down. Jay most likely wasn't there during the murder or didn't want to tell the story that put him there. I really don't care about Jay's whole story. He knew where the car was and knew she was murdered. He knew enough to implicate Adnan.

    Asia? You tell me? Is it normal for some acquaintance to be sending so many letters and pining for his attention?? Not hardly. A morbid fascination at best. She has been struck down so many times in post-trial testimony. Remember, Adnan received those letters one week after his arrest, but no one contacted her? He had access to a phone and her number was in them. Kinda funny that he neglected to even call her, forget his attorney disregarding it.

    How is any of this normal to you? If you were put in jail and received letters providing an alibi you'd call them, unless you were guilty and knew they were pointless.

    So, discount Adnan's "voice" of ambiguity. Look at the evidence and tell me how it points away from him, because that's all that's left. He's in prison and you now have to prove a case without an opposing series of facts. I'm actually astonished that anyone would think he is innocent. Not trying to be rude either. I'm enjoying the discussion, but I'm truly shocked that this is even a case for dispute. Go online and you'll see dozens of others who believed in his innocence only to come to terms with his guilt. It's not about throwing in the towel either, it's about things we haven't seen. So-called evidence and noise Rabia has put into public record to sway opinion and manipulate people based on her personal bias.

  7. #802
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    The lividity report is part of state's record. Jay Wilds has three different versions of what happened on Jan 13 1999, and none match the version you suggest. He places Hae in her trunk right after being killed. And she is only taken from that trunk (in all three versions of his story) when "buried". There is no way she could have attained full frontal lividity under those circumstances.


    http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/evi...e-two-cla.html

  8. #803
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    Have you read the pathology report? I have and it essentially says that it's anterior, except for locations of pressure (normal). It doesn't reveal lividity in the legs, arms, face, or specific locations, just that it's anterior. Hae could have easily been placed in a trunk whereby her torso was prone. I've seen a lot of crime scene photos and the placement of limbs is often strange. Nothing to suggest that her legs and arms weren't in some strange anatomical position (blood pools is key here). So, lividity under usual conditions becomes developed in 10 hours. Livor mortis becomes visible around 3-4 hours. So again, if she was murdered just after 2 pm and kept in a trunk mostly prone, but buried in the dirt around 12 am, that explains how the pattern of anterior lividity is fixed.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Jay wasn't telling the entire truth, period. He was attempting to save face and distance himself from the crime as much as possible; however, he was cornered into telling them certain details. His fear of the legal system has kept him from being honest all along. The minutia of his story is irrelevant. He knew where the car was and enough to know Adnan had killed her.

    I ask again, how did Jay know where she was buried and where the car was? Why wasn't Adnan curious as to where she was during the "missing" phase? He attends a wedding and when asked about Hae only remarks that they broke up. No mention of her missing?! Why did Sharon Watts (school nurse) report that Adnan was crying and acting upset, only to see him laughing with friends later on?

    Remove Jay and his story from the equation. Why were so many others telling of Adnan's guilt and suspicious stories? How did so much light cast upon Adnan? Moreover, why do you think he's innocent?

    As they say, the truth is stranger than fiction. The lividity, the stories, the circumstances, et cetra. For those that want an airtight alibi complete with film of said murder, it just isn't there.

  9. #804
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    I've always thought that jay viewed, Hae and Adnan, as a threat to his and Stephanie's relationship.

  10. #805
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    Hae Min Lee's body was found prior to Jay Wilds and Adan Syed even being spoken to. That's what began the investigation.

    It's not a pathology report, it's called an autopsy--and here it is:

    https://viewfromll2.files.wordpress....psy-report.pdf

    The "anterior surface of a body" includes the limbs. No distinction between torso and limbs is made.

    All the rest of what you post is pure conjecture and impossible to address. I like substantiated facts.

    PS, I've never stated that I thought Adnan was innocent, only that questions in the case warrant a new trial. Big difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orlaam View Post
    Have you read the pathology report? I have and it essentially says that it's anterior, except for locations of pressure (normal). It doesn't reveal lividity in the legs, arms, face, or specific locations, just that it's anterior. Hae could have easily been placed in a trunk whereby her torso was prone. I've seen a lot of crime scene photos and the placement of limbs is often strange. Nothing to suggest that her legs and arms weren't in some strange anatomical position (blood pools is key here). So, lividity under usual conditions becomes developed in 10 hours. Livor mortis becomes visible around 3-4 hours. So again, if she was murdered just after 2 pm and kept in a trunk mostly prone, but buried in the dirt around 12 am, that explains how the pattern of anterior lividity is fixed.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Jay wasn't telling the entire truth, period. He was attempting to save face and distance himself from the crime as much as possible; however, he was cornered into telling them certain details. His fear of the legal system has kept him from being honest all along. The minutia of his story is irrelevant. He knew where the car was and enough to know Adnan had killed her.

    I ask again, how did Jay know where she was buried and where the car was? Why wasn't Adnan curious as to where she was during the "missing" phase? He attends a wedding and when asked about Hae only remarks that they broke up. No mention of her missing?! Why did Sharon Watts (school nurse) report that Adnan was crying and acting upset, only to see him laughing with friends later on?

    Remove Jay and his story from the equation. Why were so many others telling of Adnan's guilt and suspicious stories? How did so much light cast upon Adnan? Moreover, why do you think he's innocent?

    As they say, the truth is stranger than fiction. The lividity, the stories, the circumstances, et cetra. For those that want an airtight alibi complete with film of said murder, it just isn't there.
    Last edited by htiff; 05-28-2017 at 09:33 PM.


  11. #806
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    And now I'll back out. You're clearly wanting to argue and disregard all the reports from other witnesses, unless they work in your favor. You want to hinge your theory on Jay, despite his stories being so varied. You want to believe Asia as well. Suspend all other stories for an individual you have no personal relation with just to further a confirmation bias.

    And yes, that is the "autopsy" report I was referring to <rolleyes>. I wasn't going to be snide, but you aren't open to opinion or frank discussion.

    I must say, if I'm ever charged in a crime, I hope you're in the jury pool! lol

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    Last edited by htiff; 06-01-2017 at 02:25 PM.

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