884 users online (165 members and 719 guests)  


Websleuths News


Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    156

    Interesting hand writing comparison

    Hello everyone - I am a long time lurker and very infrequent poster. This case has bothered me since it happened. Now I have 3 girls of my own (8,6 & 3) and the thought of it just... well it makes me FERVENT in my desire to find who killed her. They deserve to be caught. Among this board, I have noticed there are incredibly intelligent, compassionate people. With this many people working together toward a common goal it is possible that on these pages the killer will be found. I prayed last night for God to give us all insight... for there to be a cohesiveness amongst us all... for no stone to be unturned. That being said - I apologize if my post is old hat. For years I have been interested in hand writing. In high school and college I read many books on handwriting comparisons and analysis. I haven't seen a "print" version of Patsy's handwriting - only her cursive. However, in my googling - I came across this link: JR's handwriting is on the left and the RN on the right.

    http://web.tiscali.it/faustobrugnatelli/2.htm

    You've probably already seen this - but I would like to know what you all think.


    Jen

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    3,053
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennerbear
    Hello everyone - I am a long time lurker and very infrequent poster. This case has bothered me since it happened. Now I have 3 girls of my own (8,6 & 3) and the thought of it just... well it makes me FERVENT in my desire to find who killed her. They deserve to be caught. Among this board, I have noticed there are incredibly intelligent, compassionate people. With this many people working together toward a common goal it is possible that on these pages the killer will be found. I prayed last night for God to give us all insight... for there to be a cohesiveness amongst us all... for no stone to be unturned. That being said - I apologize if my post is old hat. For years I have been interested in hand writing. In high school and college I read many books on handwriting comparisons and analysis. I haven't seen a "print" version of Patsy's handwriting - only her cursive. However, in my googling - I came across this link: JR's handwriting is on the left and the RN on the right.

    http://web.tiscali.it/faustobrugnatelli/2.htm

    You've probably already seen this - but I would like to know what you all think.


    Jen


    Jennerbear,

    Thank you for bringing up Brunatelli's handwriting analysis of John Ramsey's exemplars. Yes, it was discussed on this forum a long time ago. Using solely Brunatelli's approach, at first blush it does appear that John could have written the ransom note.

    But his technique counts only letters that seem to match those in the ransom note, and does not compare how many letters do NOT match those in the ransom note. As you know, it's the ratio between the two that helps determine whether the examinee could be the writer, since we all print similarly.

    For instance, using a felt tipped pen, I printed the first three sentences of John's response to the lawsuit and compared it to Brunatelli's analysis. My exemplars more closely matched the exemplars from the ransom note than did
    John's. Try it yourself using a felt tipped pen and you'll see what I mean. It's fascinating how closely most of us match each others printing.

    BlueCrab

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    342
    I always thought that if I saw that crazy "F" again written by someone related in anyway to this crime, I would know that person is the perp. Look at all the capital "F"s.

    They look like backward "7"s, with a straight, slanted line drawn up to the left and then down; then the curly midline like the lower case "f". I noticed PR's lower case "f"s looked the same, but I have never seen a comparitive sample of the capital "F" from anyone.

    So, if you are aware of such a crazy "F", let me (us) know. They are dramatic and I think unique.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    156
    What is interesting to me about the ransom note is this... people can try and fake someone else's handwriting (like I do when I write letters to my daughters as "santa"). Change the way you make a lowercase a, t or d. In the RN, I noticed sometimes the author would make a curved base "t" and sometimes a strait "t".However, something like dotting an i is something we don't think about much. You can tell a lot about someone's personality by how they dot their i's. I make no claim to be an expert and this is just an armchair handwriting analysis. The letter I is a very telling letter...especially in cursive writing because we tend to be a little faster when we dot our i's in cursive than in manuscript. If someone were to dot their I's where the dot part of the letter is far before the line part of the letter, it means something different than if one were to dot their I's far above the body of the i or far to the right of the body. Some people dot there I's with little circles... they tend to be more dramatic. People that dot their I's way above the I tend to be flighty. The author of the RN dots MOST of his/her i's directly above the body of the letter... and they seem to be consistently spaced (i.e. dots are consistently spaced above the body of the letter). From what I recall from studying handwriting a bit... the dot directly above the I is a "type A" person if you will. Someone who is sure of themselves. Well, thanks for reading my of worthless information. Take it or leave it.


    Jennerbear

  5. #5
    Good post Jennerbear, thanks for bringing this comparison up (i hadn't read the original post from long ago)

    I agree there are startling similarities between the JR exemplar and the RN.

    Regarding "odd letters" like the "crazy F's", I've always thought that the RN's author's A's (written like computer characters) were very unusual. Apparently some other people regularly write a's in this fashion. But I still think it's a highly unusual habit and a key textual indicator of the author's ID.

    Did you just google this Jennerbear? It's a great find.
    BTW i think JR's "reverse-sloping" writing indicates an introverted personality. Something like that anyway

    I periodically get enthused (if that is the word) about a theory which has Fleet and JR conspiring to cover up JBR's death. Anyhoo

  6. #6
    one thing that strikes me is that of those handwriting experts who believe that Patsy wrote the note, they tend to be "100% sure" or absolutely certain that she wrote it.

    Now i know BC and others do not believe Foster, Epstein, Wong etc are correct. But it strikes me that after analyzing the note, THEY are CERTAIN that Patsy wrote it.

    Is there any other suspect in this case who attracts such certainty of authorship as Patsy, among those handwriting and document examination experts who have a definite opinion one way or another about WHO wrote it?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NSW Australia
    Posts
    9,182
    Jennerbear

    Well, whoever wrote that note was sure of themselves alright, I agree with your armchair analysis.
    At the Ken Polzin Jr site there is a statement analysis article from the FBI that is very interesting to read.
    This is a snippet:

    >>LACK OF CONVICTION
    Another important factor in statement analysis is a person's
    lack of conviction. When analyzing a statement, investigators
    should note if the person feigns a loss of memory by repeatedly
    inserting "I don't remember" or "I can't recall."<<

    Sound like anyone we know??

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    3,053
    Quote Originally Posted by Rupert
    I always thought that if I saw that crazy "F" again written by someone related in anyway to this crime, I would know that person is the perp. Look at all the capital "F"s.

    They look like backward "7"s, with a straight, slanted line drawn up to the left and then down; then the curly midline like the lower case "f". I noticed PR's lower case "f"s looked the same, but I have never seen a comparitive sample of the capital "F" from anyone.

    So, if you are aware of such a crazy "F", let me (us) know. They are dramatic and I think unique.

    Rupert,

    I think you mean the lower case f's, don't you? The ransom note's capital F's (in FBI and in Follow) seem normal to me.

    Edited to add there are one or two normal lower case f's in the ransom note, but most of them are the crazy f's you have pointed out. Those backward 7's are indeed unusual f's (normal printed f's have rounded tops) and, as you request, should be looked for.
    Last edited by BlueCrab; 07-12-2005 at 09:20 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NSW Australia
    Posts
    9,182
    I found this whilst googling the ransom note.
    http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/note/index.html

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    156
    That is VERY interesting.... wow


    Jen


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    9,061

    The hunt continues

    Interesting to look at the comparisons after so many years have passed.

    I am wondering whether those who have tried to write with a felt tip -Sharpie- for example and do some of the ransom note 'letters' have noted the 'heighth' of their individual letters ie 'a' or 'b' etc.

    IF for example one does a letter, trying to 'disguise' their normal writing of such a letter, ie an 'a' or a 'b' etc, wouldn't you try to do the beginning of the letter in a different heighth of each letter, than you would normally do it.

    Comparables in Brugnatelli samples seem soooooooooo similar.

    Do you all think that IF IF the case brought forth by Hoffman and thumbs downed by the judge HAD been allowed, that by the doing of it, WE might have seen a deeper digging and resolution? With someone actually getting sent to the striped sun tan spa?

    I am also remembering that there were other notes on remaining pages of the legal pad used for the ransom note. Household notes etc. made by PR, that could have been analyzed for heighth of ALL letters, if gone over with a sharpie would have given greater comparable info on the writer of the ransom note?

    Grasping at straws here, but, huh, er? I am thinking that shape would have been more cleverly disguised than the heighth of the letters. Wouldn't it have to do with the heighth of the fingers grasping the pen, in a 'normal' fashion. OR, hmmm, most likely the writer of the note would have held the pen in an awkward position as well to 'help' with disguising of the handwriting??


    .
    Opinions expressed by me, are mine, based on life experience, and known facts of any given case.





    """I am just a pixel in the universal plan."""

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    3,486
    Quote Originally Posted by narlacat
    I found this whilst googling the ransom note.
    http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/note/index.html
    The comparsons are very interesting and suggestive as presented. The math is not to be taken literally.

    First, the coin and die options present alternatives which are individually equally likely. There is no basis presented that individuals are equally likely to move a pen point in variations of directions. Only empirical comparisons and a statistical model could produce a basis. Four "options" may include one that is 10 times more likely than another or one that is never seen. The way the odds are quoted (backwards) does not sound like someone with a math background.

    Second, one cannot merge probabilities of occurrence of things that "might be" with things already known "to be" in order to claim a more remote likelihood of the combination. This is an example of the "gambler's fallacy". Jon Benet was killed in Boulder and it is not a variable. The factor inserted as "powerall" of X5281 is a math error. Notice that the author assumes a case will occur each year but fails to see that his "factor calculation" would apply to that case anywhere, even though he gives it a "certainty". If valid he would be justified in claiming the odds are 5281 to 1 that JBR was not killed in Boulder!

    The math is askew, but that does not necessarily mean there is not some validity to the overall process.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    156
    I'll leave you big brainers to do the math work... over my head fo sho! However, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Patsy would have had to get some random male DNA and put it on JB's panties... I'm sure the mathmatical probabilities of THAT happening are very slim. Anyhoo...

    That's my two pennies worth.


    Jen

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,299
    Quote Originally Posted by narlacat
    I found this whilst googling the ransom note.
    http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/note/index.html
    The handwriting on the right appears feminine while the handwriting on the left doesn't.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    9,061

    Hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacy Wood
    The comparsons are very interesting and suggestive as presented. The math is not to be taken literally.

    First, the coin and die options present alternatives which are individually equally likely. There is no basis presented that individuals are equally likely to move a pen point in variations of directions. Only empirical comparisons and a statistical model could produce a basis. Four "options" may include one that is 10 times more likely than another or one that is never seen. The way the odds are quoted (backwards) does not sound like someone with a math background.

    Second, one cannot merge probabilities of occurrence of things that "might be" with things already known "to be" in order to claim a more remote likelihood of the combination. This is an example of the "gambler's fallacy". Jon Benet was killed in Boulder and it is not a variable. The factor inserted as "powerall" of X5281 is a math error. Notice that the author assumes a case will occur each year but fails to see that his "factor calculation" would apply to that case anywhere, even though he gives it a "certainty". If valid he would be justified in claiming the odds are 5281 to 1 that JBR was not killed in Boulder!

    The math is askew, but that does not necessarily mean there is not some validity to the overall process.


    Lacy, I am a female version of Mortimer Snerd when it comes to fully understanding your elaboration on the possible writer of 'The JonBenet Ransom Note'. Do consider this, Patsy is/was an artist as well as ambidextrous.

    To HOTYH, as far as delicate ruffles and flourishes defining male or female pen people I donut hold to that very much in thought, obscurity reigns there for me. To write delicately with a Sharpie felt tip is dang near impossible. I am a female artist and working on a long standing project, that should be completed in one more year. I do use a fine line Sharpie pen for my initial drawings, primarily because of the distinct visibility of the lines.

    I am now coming to another thought, wonder if our writer had some eyesight problems? Why didn't our poor perp just use a regular Bic, a cheaper by the dozen pen?



    .
    Opinions expressed by me, are mine, based on life experience, and known facts of any given case.





    """I am just a pixel in the universal plan."""



Similar Threads

  1. Hand Writing Comparison; Breakthrough
    By TimeCop in forum The Zodiac Killer
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 07-17-2013, 02:31 PM
  2. Photo:Baby Reaches Hand Out During C-Section, Grabs Dr's Hand
    By Blondie in Spokane in forum News that makes you smile!
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-03-2013, 04:18 PM
  3. Possible comparison.
    By :+:MrTT:+: in forum Texas Killing Fields and Mysteries Along I-45
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-26-2011, 05:20 PM