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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottonweaver View Post
    That's how I remember it too - he was reported as both being sloppy and too eager to throw the book at Oscar - not in collusion with him
    I think Botha was careless, because he was told it was a straightforward intruder killing, and until he got upstairs, he had no reason to believe otherwise. By then, he'd already trampled over the crime scene without protective footwear, although I think there were other things he did without due care and attention. However, OP himself had already interfered with the crime scene by the time the police arrived.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lithgow1 View Post
    It makes one wonder how much damage Botha could have done. He may have made mistakes, and he certainly got hammered at the bail application, but does anyone know why the state were so reluctant for him to appear? I recall Roux bringing him up during the trial a few times with a sarcastic comment or three, but the defence could hardly have claimed that the methods or testimony of their experts and investigations was above criticism. This also makes me wonder why Masipa slammed Vergeer in the sentencing phase but made no mention of Roger Dixon in her summing up while delivering the verdict when IMO he was just as inept, if not worse. More likeable in a bumbling kind of way but that's beside the point - his evidence was way beyond his field of expertise and bordered on dishonest with such stunts as the 'figure in the window' photos to name just one example.
    I personally find it astonishing that the PT cut a deal re. Carl/Botha .. I simply cannot see that anything Botha had done could match what Carl had done. Carl should've been prosecuted for taking that phone and wiping it, and that whole thing should've contributed towards a 'guilty of murdering Reeva' verdict for OP .. it's just ridiculous that each of these things kept on being dismissed as not being proof enough, like I've said before, you could take any murder case and argue every single thing away but fortunately in this country we have juries who take a case as a whole and come to decision based on that, and that would include someone wiping a phone because the only reason why someone takes a phone from a crime scene and wipes it is because it contained incriminating evidence, it's just basic common sense.

  3. #18
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    ....copied from prior thread
    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelMustard View Post
    I risk being pooh-poohed, again, here, but I have always thought that, at least part of the fight that night (if not a trigger) was related to the fact that he had told her/expected her to turn the fans off? bring them inside? and she didn't do it.

    (I find that, when someone drops a piece of info. into a mix, which seems to have no relevance at all, it signals that it has GREAT significance to them, otherwise they wouldn't have thought to say it at all.
    My thoughts: due to the following points (which were testified to in court), I don't believe we have any evidence that supports him having any concern/issue with the fans or the sliding balcony door:

    1. ME testimony about food in Reeva's stomach & approximate time she last ate something. Therefore, she's awake during early morning hours of Valentine's Day.
    2. Testimony of arguing heard by neighbor, and the time of this arguing. Neighbor resorted to placing pillow over her head to try and drown it out. Supports both being awake (and much sooner than when OP claims to have awoken, in bed, with Reeva at his side).
    3. Early photos taken of crime scene show balcony door open, drapes/curtains open, fans not moved to location OP claims they were, placement of duvet, Reeva's jeans, etc. 1st pictures taken don't support this story.

    Other than the ever changing testimony of the man who killed Reeva, and "fighting for his life", the testimony & evidence seem to contradict that issue ever actually being a concern for OP, IMO.

    I do agree with your statement re adding additional, unnecessary information can often signal having greater significance than it appears. However, in this case I just think OP needed a reason to have his back to Reeva so she can get to the bathroom without being seen/heard by the man madly in love with her and worried for her safety. So much so, that for 15 min of "life threatening danger" he doesn't even have eye contact or any 2-way communication with her, while in the same room with her. I just don't think any of the "fan/door story" is real, other than them being in the bedroom with him.

  4. #19
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    Carl's still at it. I wonder if he pauses to consider that God also willed him to have a near-fatal car crash. As someone suggested in the comments, maybe it was a warning from on high for evidence tampering but if so it doesn't seem he has heeded it. I also like his tags - his brother got 'committed' to an institution and is learning '2 serve' his (albeit short) sentence. Somehow I get the impression irony goes way over CP's head.


    ‏@carlpistorius
    You and I are here because the Lord wills it. What AMAZING GRACE!
    #getcommitted #learn2serve

    https://twitter.com/carlpistorius/st...51356611362817

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay-jay View Post
    I personally find it astonishing that the PT cut a deal re. Carl/Botha .. I simply cannot see that anything Botha had done could match what Carl had done. Carl should've been prosecuted for taking that phone and wiping it, and that whole thing should've contributed towards a 'guilty of murdering Reeva' verdict for OP .. it's just ridiculous that each of these things kept on being dismissed as not being proof enough, like I've said before, you could take any murder case and argue every single thing away but fortunately in this country we have juries who take a case as a whole and come to decision based on that, and that would include someone wiping a phone because the only reason why someone takes a phone from a crime scene and wipes it is because it contained incriminating evidence, it's just basic common sense.
    Agreed....seems absolutely bizarre that the PT would let this slide without much of a fight (it appears, perhaps behind closed doors much different).

    I am curious how "biased" Masipa may (or may not) have come across in chambers & if Nel was aware early on that he was fighting an extremely difficult uphill battle much earlier than the reading of the verdict.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by lithgow1 View Post
    Do you mean by having done something illegal/dodgy in the course of this investigation or by something else?
    All i can find from Judge Nair on Botha at bail is this:
    It was “astounding” that Warrant Officer Hilton Botha thought his key witness lived “600 metres” from Pistorius’s house – and still could have heard an argument inside.
    The police “blundered” over the substance found in Pistorius’s home, wrongly identifying it as testosterone.
    W/O Botha “did not bother” to check Pistorius’s mobile phone to see whether the athlete had made emergency calls after shooting Miss Steenkamp."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rius-live.html

    Suppose we should throw in watches going missing - but personally I wouldn't be surprised if one of the family took them, maybe inadvertently ( for Oscar himself) at first, and then this later became another convenient, suspicious loss, ( somewhat similar to the extension cord which is probably in a box in the attic at Arnolds)
    Throw in the fact that SAPS were taking photos of OP on their mobiles ( before they were confiscated) , as press were offering many months salary to get an OP picture before bail hearing...

    As Jay- Jay says though, even still, it's still a hill of beans in comparison to the phone tampering

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by lithgow1 View Post
    Carl's still at it. I wonder if he pauses to consider that God also willed him to have a near-fatal car crash. As someone suggested in the comments, maybe it was a warning from on high for evidence tampering but if so it doesn't seem he has heeded it. I also like his tags - his brother got 'committed' to an institution and is learning '2 serve' his (albeit short) sentence. Somehow I get the impression irony goes way over CP's head.


    ‏@carlpistorius
    You and I are here because the Lord wills it. What AMAZING GRACE!
    #getcommitted #learn2serve

    https://twitter.com/carlpistorius/st...51356611362817
    So, by that same token (CP's tweet) Reeva is not here now because his 'Lord wills it'?? How does that one work then ..

    I just cannot believe his sheer insensitivity with all these tweets of his .. does he really not see it?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay-jay View Post
    So, by that same token (CP's tweet) Reeva is not here now because his 'Lord wills it'?? How does that one work then ..

    I just cannot believe his sheer insensitivity with all these tweets of his .. does he really not see it?
    BIB , I'm starting to think it might be baiting. Is that possible do you think?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottonweaver View Post
    All i can find from Judge Nair on Botha at bail is this:
    It was “astounding” that Warrant Officer Hilton Botha thought his key witness lived “600 metres” from Pistorius’s house – and still could have heard an argument inside.
    The police “blundered” over the substance found in Pistorius’s home, wrongly identifying it as testosterone.
    W/O Botha “did not bother” to check Pistorius’s mobile phone to see whether the athlete had made emergency calls after shooting Miss Steenkamp."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rius-live.html

    Suppose we should throw in watches going missing - but personally I wouldn't be surprised if one of the family took them, maybe inadvertently ( for Oscar himself) at first, and then this later became another convenient, suspicious loss, ( somewhat similar to the extension cord which is probably in a box in the attic at Arnolds)
    Throw in the fact that SAPS were taking photos of OP on their mobiles ( before they were confiscated) , as press were offering many months salary to get an OP picture before bail hearing...

    As Jay- Jay says though, even still, it's still a hill of beans in comparison to the phone tampering

    The mistakes seem innocuous enough, but are they?

    We now know those witnesses would be Stipps and VDM (if I am not mistaken, Johnson/Berger got in touch with PT after the bail hearing). both were less than 100 meters away from OP's house. How could a Police investigator with 16 years experience concede that they lived 600m away? That is not sloppiness, that is clearly to damage State's case.

    Similarly, about the `substance' - it should be a fairly trivial task to find out what exactly it was. Making a wrong claim there is clearly giving DT a huge advantage. If you are in the Police force for 16 years and are the lead investigator in a high profile case, I do not believe you can make such a trivial mistake.

    We all know now what happened with Oscar's phone. So being so sloppy with such a crucial piece of evidence immediately casts doubt on him, doesn't it?

    We also know now that Botha was replaced as the investigator. On what grounds? There were murder charges against him. The charges were not new, so it is not possible that the Police Department had no knowledge of it when he was made the investigator. Then why suddenly revive the charges and replace him? If he was merely sloppy, it would be so much better to just give him a firm shove and ask him to carry on properly. Being the one in charge in the initial stages, and one of those at the scene, he could have been such an asset to the State. To me, it had to be something beyond sloppiness that prompted this action.

    Soon after this I think, Botha left the Police force. Again, seen together with all these other things, that is an indication to me that he was not just being simply careless.

    We also saw how desperate the State was to avoid having to produce him as a witness during the trial. Again, he was at the scene early, he was the lead investigator at that stage. He could have been such a help. Why avoid him then? Those sloppiness (misreading the distance, misjudging the substance) would not have had much effect on the trial any more. And DT wouldn't have complained much about him being lazy about properly investigating OP's phone either. Why then?

    Now imagine a scenario where DT has paid him off, to make small but crucial mistakes that would render the State's case hopeless. Assuming this, take a look at all the above. They all now seem to fit in, don't they?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottonweaver View Post
    BIB , I'm starting to think it might be baiting. Is that possible do you think?
    Quite possibly ..!


  11. #26
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    A few more mistakes by Botha, just for sake of accuracy, again from Judge Nair- same source- live bail hearing.

    "13.50 After being told there were offshore accounts, he did not deem it necessary to seize the memory stick with the information on it.
    13.49 Poor Mr Botha. "He may well have contaminated the crime scene by not wearing protective covers on his shoes", he could have established if Pistorius had a history of violence. He blundered on the testosterone issue. "Did he write testosterone in his notebook? No. Did he write in in his clipboard? No."
    13.48 "He does not verify the cell phone information of the deceased. It is of crucial importance to show that there were calls or sms that might have been made up to 2am".
    13.47 Magistrate Nair now picks apart Mr Botha: "He made several errors and concessions. He didn't bother to ask for the other cellphones that might have been present, nor did he check the records given by the defence."

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottonweaver View Post
    BIB , I'm starting to think it might be baiting. Is that possible do you think?
    Some of his tweets seem so clueless that it does make you wonder. Generally though I think that it's more likely a combo of being not overly bright in tandem with an overriding focus on his family's issues and their supposed faith to the point where these things exclude the sensitivities or opinions of anyone else. Uncle Arnold doesn't appear to be a stupid man yet his tweet about 'goodness destroying evil' was quite lacking in intelligence IMO, especially for someone who seems so concerned about the public perception of his family. Essentially I think they just can't (or won't) see or appreciate much beyond what is happening in their own lives. CP's accident was a good case in point where all the PR statements were about him and how he was doing and nothing at all IIRC about the guy in the other vehicle. So to add to Carl not 'doing' irony, it would seem empathy is largely beyond them as well.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by akp View Post
    The mistakes seem innocuous enough, but are they?

    We now know those witnesses would be Stipps and VDM (if I am not mistaken, Johnson/Berger got in touch with PT after the bail hearing). both were less than 100 meters away from OP's house. How could a Police investigator with 16 years experience concede that they lived 600m away? That is not sloppiness, that is clearly to damage State's case.

    Similarly, about the `substance' - it should be a fairly trivial task to find out what exactly it was. Making a wrong claim there is clearly giving DT a huge advantage. If you are in the Police force for 16 years and are the lead investigator in a high profile case, I do not believe you can make such a trivial mistake.

    We all know now what happened with Oscar's phone. So being so sloppy with such a crucial piece of evidence immediately casts doubt on him, doesn't it?

    We also know now that Botha was replaced as the investigator. On what grounds? There were murder charges against him. The charges were not new, so it is not possible that the Police Department had no knowledge of it when he was made the investigator. Then why suddenly revive the charges and replace him? If he was merely sloppy, it would be so much better to just give him a firm shove and ask him to carry on properly. Being the one in charge in the initial stages, and one of those at the scene, he could have been such an asset to the State. To me, it had to be something beyond sloppiness that prompted this action.

    Soon after this I think, Botha left the Police force. Again, seen together with all these other things, that is an indication to me that he was not just being simply careless.

    We also saw how desperate the State was to avoid having to produce him as a witness during the trial. Again, he was at the scene early, he was the lead investigator at that stage. He could have been such a help. Why avoid him then? Those sloppiness (misreading the distance, misjudging the substance) would not have had much effect on the trial any more. And DT wouldn't have complained much about him being lazy about properly investigating OP's phone either. Why then?

    Now imagine a scenario where DT has paid him off, to make small but crucial mistakes that would render the State's case hopeless. Assuming this, take a look at all the above. They all now seem to fit in, don't they?
    BIB Actually, we don't know that this refers to the Stipps or Mrs vdM. It could conceivably have been other witnesses who were never called.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottonweaver View Post
    BIB , I'm starting to think it might be baiting. Is that possible do you think?
    I don't think he's baiting. He presents as a man who is not in touch with himself and detached from people. He can't express himself so he utters religious tracts to cover up. In the interview with Aimee he wears a pained expression, but is wooden, and objectifies feelings rather than owning them. The circumstances aside I don't think he's a man who is at ease in his own skin. There's something about him that makes me feel uncomfortable.

    Here's the interview with Aimee.

    http://www.enca.com/south-africa/big...imee-speak-out

  15. #30
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    Oscar Sentence and Poaching Rhinos

    Colonel Mustard: Last thread now closed: Comparing Oscar sentence with poaching rhinos for their horns.

    I am an admirer of your posts, with the exception of this comment: #1451 "And, I understand, life without parole if you poach a rhino."

    I do wish that people here, on twitter, and everywhere it seems, would stop this comparison. I'm sure there are others which don't involve cruel killing and the destruction of a species. Rhinos are intelligent sociable animals. They have remarkable vocal communication with each other and the baby rhinos are left distraught after their mothers are killed in front of them.

    Anyone who has read my comments on the Pistorius trial knows my views on the farcical injustice of it, but please can we retain our humanity and reason on other evils as well. Thank you.

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