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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by writable View Post
    I was responding to speculation that Thomas might have forgotten knowingly or unknowingly being in a car with the Lyon sisters (unknowingly, if he was unfamiliar with them). My point is that had the alleged incident taken place, it would be highly doubtful he could have forgotten about it. But I doubt the alleged incident ever did take place (the allegation that Richard Welch kidnapped the girls).
    Lucky for crime victims, some investigators don't marry themselves to ideas about possible scenarios that are "highly doubtful", or "likely". I think, if the Welches are innocent here, police deserve credit for taking their time and interviewing everyone who wanted to come forward before naming persons of interest.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplifymylife2014 View Post
    Does anyone know if we have available a list of things found in the search of RAW1's home in Hyattsville, Maryland?

    As an example, even though RAW1 doesn't have a criminal record, perhaps knowing what was found in the home can give clues.

    As an EXAMPLE ONLY:
    If adult porno materials were found in someone's home--that is one thing,
    however if CHILD porno literature is found, THAT IS A BIG RED FLAG-- if it found in a Person of Interest's home in a case like this with the missing children.
    I don't think either the search warrant or the results have been made public.

    But a search warrant DOES NOT allow the police to search for or inventory everything in the house such as legal porn or illegal child porn.

    A search warrant, such as this boilerplate warrant, has to specify what the police are looking for:
    http://www.lawcollective.org/downloa...20Warrants.pdf

    The textbook example is of the police obtaining a search warrant for the body of a missing person presumed dead.
    The police can only look for the body. The police can not look on your computer for a dead body.

    The hard to-decide-cases are when while looking for a body, the police stumble on drugs in a spot where a body could be hidden. For example, if the police open a 55-gallon barrel and find drugs instead of a body, likely a legal search.
    But if the police open a desk drawer, knowing no bodies were ever found in a desk, and find drugs, likely not a legal search.

    That being said, if they legally found child porn, he should have been arrested by now.

    While a criminal's porn tastes are often leaked to the press and show up on tabloid TV crime shows, I think any legal use of them as evidence would be questionable, but I am not sure of the details. Their are laws protecting the privacy of video (including porn) rentals. One now-sitting Supreme Court Judge allegedly had rented some porn videos, but during his confirmation hearings, his video rentals were ruled off limits.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveP120 View Post
    Police believe the girls took a path from the neighborhood, but never made it back to the path.

    "It's a winding path, goes through the woods. It would have been a normal way for kids to travel to come here,” said Hamill. “We don't believe they ever made it from the mall. We believe the actions occurred here in the area of the mall."

    http://www.wset.com/story/26797749/w...ng-their-steps
    I'm wondering if search dogs were able to give police an idea of where the girls got off the sidewalk or path and into a car, and if that's one of the things that was stated in the interviews with RAW, LLW, and RAW's wife.........I do not remember anyone offering a hypothesis about exactly where the girls were when they were taken.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by siriunsun View Post
    I'm wondering if search dogs were able to give police an idea of where the girls got off the sidewalk or path and into a car, and if that's one of the things that was stated in the interviews with RAW, LLW, and RAW's wife.........I do not remember anyone offering a hypothesis about exactly where the girls were when they were taken.
    If you are up for a day or weekend of reading on the paths/road the girls took, the thread starting at
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...nterest/page12
    goes to page 36, with maps, photos and discussion of the paths.

    Prior to last year, the last "confirmed" sightings of the girls were walling down Drumm Street to a path.
    Now the police doubt the "confirmed" sighting, and think girls never left Wheaton Plaza alone.

    I still have my own doubt about the new theory.

  5. #65
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    I remember walking along those routes, myself. I really have to wonder if law enforcement had a theory, based on search dogs, that they never shared with the public.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by siriunsun View Post
    I remember walking along those routes, myself. I really have to wonder if law enforcement had a theory, based on search dogs, that they never shared with the public.
    There was a long discussion on the use of search dogs starting at the bottom of the page on this thread:
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...nterest/page13

    But the summary (according to my memory, not checked) is:

    In 1975 Montgomery County did not use or bring in their own search dogs as far as we know.

    One eyewitness placed the girls walking back to the mall at 6 or 7 PM, so the police during the first week did not concentrate on the path; the initial police search concentrated on the plaza (now mall) and Tape Recorder Man, although people did search everywhere, spreading their effort out. A week later, for unknown reasons, the police thought this eyewitness, a young teenager seeing the girls at dusk, was mistaken as to seeing the girls walking back to the mall; he could be off by a day or just mistaken.

    A week after the abduction, two more teenagers came forward and said they saw the girls walking down Drumm Ave towards the path and back home at 2:30. They would have come forward sooner, but they thought their 2:30 siteing was irrelevant, since the prior last theory was that the girls were back at the mall in the early evening. (Now, 40 years later, the new cops think these witnesses, only one of which knew the girls, were mistaken)*

    A week after the abduction, private search dogs were brought in from PA.

    The dogs, as much as you can trust dogs or their handlers, may have tracked the dogs on the expected path the girls walked.
    Years later, it turned out that the private search dog owner was a bit of a media showboat and had financial problems approaching fraud.

    No other reports of dog searches being done appeared.

    @Richard. If Cadaver dogs can sometimes smell bodies 40 years after the burial, as they were used in the VA search warrant, to cover all bases, should't the police walk cadaver dogs around the mall and nearby Wheaton, Kensington just to be sure?

    * Honest, but incorrect reports of seeing the girls or missing persons in general are common, because seeing any two girls at the mall or walking down street is really not a memorable event; most people who did not know their names would have forgot them one minute after passing them.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveP120 View Post
    If you are up for a day or weekend of reading on the paths/road the girls took, the thread starting at
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...nterest/page12
    goes to page 36, with maps, photos and discussion of the paths.

    Prior to last year, the last "confirmed" sightings of the girls were walling down Drumm Street to a path.
    Now the police doubt the "confirmed" sighting, and think girls never left Wheaton Plaza alone.

    I still have my own doubt about the new theory.
    Thanks for the link SteveP! I'm on pg 14 and already hooked! You guys who have been on this case for months/years share a wealth of knowledge and theories just one year ago that are astounding considering what we know now. Everyone who is new to this case and playing catch up like me should read this. I now have something to keep me busy while on hiatus from the Arias 'verdict watch' this weekend!
    ...and be sure your sin will find you out.

    Numbers,32:23

  8. #68
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    The walk to and from Wheaton Plaza...

    Quote Originally Posted by steveP120 View Post
    There was a long discussion on the use of search dogs starting at the bottom of the page on this thread:
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...nterest/page13

    But the summary (according to my memory, not checked) is:
    In 1975 Montgomery County did not use or bring in their own search dogs as far as we know.

    One eyewitness placed the girls walking back to the mall at 6 or 7 PM, so the police during the first week did not concentrate on the path; the initial police search concentrated on the plaza (now mall) and Tape Recorder Man, although people did search everywhere, spreading their effort out. A week later, for unknown reasons, the police thought this eyewitness, a young teenager seeing the girls at dusk, was mistaken as to seeing the girls walking back to the mall; he could be off by a day or just mistaken.
    A week after the abduction, two more teenagers came forward and said they saw the girls walking down Drumm Ave ....
    ... @Richard. If Cadaver dogs can sometimes smell bodies 40 years after the burial, as they were used in the VA search warrant, to cover all bases, should't the police walk cadaver dogs around the mall and nearby Wheaton, Kensington just to be sure?
    ...
    Steve,

    Excellent summation of, and links to, previous posts on the subject of the girls' walk to and (possibly) from Wheaton Plaza on 25 March 1975.

    Your mention of some of the eyewitnesses and police evaluation of their testimony is an interesting topic for consideration. Police and news media (in 1975) identified or mentioned about 10 specific persons who stated that they had seen the girls that fateful day. Except for a retired woman in her 60's (who knew the girls personally and recognized them), all other witnesses were between the ages of 12 and 18 years old.

    A big question that I would have for MCP is whether or not they ever re-interviewed any of those young eyewitnesses after 1975. As you point out in your post, Police seem now to think that the girls were abducted in the close vicinity to Wheaton Plaza and never made it "back to the path" (ie their usual walking route) home.

    Individual MCP investigators have waffled back and forth over the years regarding the afternoon Drumm and Devin sighting, some have expressed doubts about it, but they have never officially stated that it did or did not occur.

    The statement of a 12 year-old boy who was mentioned in the first MCP press briefing of seeing them around 7:30 PM on Tuesday, 25 March 1975, was (by 28 March 1975) in a subsequent press briefing officially discounted because police believed that his information did not "fit" with what they thought they knew at the time.

    That boy was a classmate of Sheila's and he knew both girls by sight. He was identified by name and interviewed by a Washington Star reporter in the early days of the investigation. As an adult, he has maintained that he saw them on Faulkner Ave in Kensington on that day.

    Monday, 24 March 1975 was cold and rainy all day long, and it was stated in news accounts at the time that the girls did NOT go to Wheaton Plaza, but rather had stayed at home that day.

    That "7:30" sighting has always been a puzzle to me. Did the boy actually see them that evening heading TOWARD the Mall? Or was he misquoted/misunderstood? If he had seen them in the morning of 25 March, headed toward the Mall, it would have been about 11:30 AM. Did MCP even bother to re-interview him before publically discrediting his story? By 7:30PM, it had been dark for over an hour.

    In regard to search dogs... I have covered this subject in other posts, but you are correct to state that the Pennsylvania german shepherd tracking dogs were the first and only ones brought in to search - a full week after the girls disappeared.

    It was stated that the dogs "alerted" on the girls' scent near a ditch or drain somewhere near the Kensington swimming pool. Photos that I saw of the dogs and handler showed them walking down residential streets, but I do not believe that the dogs were actively following a track at the time. They were brought back the second day and taken to the wooded area and other areas near the girls' home, but according to reports did not find anything.

    Those were TRACKING dogs, which were specifically trained to smell a sample or target scent (possibly a pillow case, piece of unwashed clothing, etc) and then attempt to pick it up. Once a scent is found by the dog, he will take you on the path that the person walked.

    From my understanding of police briefings on the subject - and from my own personal experience as a tracking dog trainer/handler - I do not think that those dogs ever found a track to follow. It is possible that they might have found a faint residual scent trace in a protected area, where it could not dissipate, but as MCP reported at the time, they could not tell when it was left there. It could have been from their trip TO the mall rather than to their home, as there was no track or direction of travel noted.

    Cadaver Dogs are used to locate dead people, usually buried under soil, debris, or even in the water. They can detect such scents even years after death - if conditions allow for it. If a person is buried, covered, or in some way preserved, the dog has a better chance of alerting. But if a body had only been stored, or laid briefly in an open place, the scent would have dissipated within a fairly short time, depending on such factors as temperature, wind, rain, disturbance of the area, etc.

    Cadaver Dogs are primarily trained to detect any dead human, rather than to go for a specific human scent, as is the case with tracking dogs. I doubt that using them in the Kensington area would be of any use today.
    Last edited by bessie; 02-27-2015 at 01:06 PM. Reason: broken quote

  9. #69
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    Cadaver Dogs are primarily trained to detect any dead human, rather than to go for a specific human scent, as is the case with tracking dogs. I doubt that using them in the Kensington area would be of any use today.[/QUOTE]

    Agreed. Using them on Taylor's Mountain has been a different story, though.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveP120 View Post
    If you are up for a day or weekend of reading on the paths/road the girls took, the thread starting at
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...nterest/page12
    goes to page 36, with maps, photos and discussion of the paths.

    Prior to last year, the last "confirmed" sightings of the girls were walling down Drumm Street to a path.
    Now the police doubt the "confirmed" sighting, and think girls never left Wheaton Plaza alone.

    I still have my own doubt about the new theory.
    Confused by the turns in the case especially how the sightings of the girls walking home have now been discarded. In addition to the boys identifying them on the walk home from the mall, there was also Mr. Mann in his yard (Drumm and Devin) at around 2:30 p.m?

    Also ties into many previous discussions about no sightings of them being abducted from the mall area. Even though the backside of the Plaza (Montgomery Ward's) was more isolated, it still seems highly unlikely that there would be no one seeing anything there. Unless LE is not sharing....don't understand this shift to them never leaving the plaza area.

    Has anyone seen any explanation of this in the recent news reports?


  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavfam View Post
    Confused by the turns in the case especially how the sightings of the girls walking home have now been discarded. In addition to the boys identifying them on the walk home from the mall, there was also Mr. Mann in his yard (Drumm and Devin) at around 2:30 p.m?

    Also ties into many previous discussions about no sightings of them being abducted from the mall area. Even though the backside of the Plaza (Montgomery Ward's) was more isolated, it still seems highly unlikely that there would be no one seeing anything there. Unless LE is not sharing....don't understand this shift to them never leaving the plaza area.

    Has anyone seen any explanation of this in the recent news reports?
    There has been no detailed explanation other than the fairly recent statement by a MCP chief mentioned above hinting that the girls did not make it "back to the path".

    I interpret his remarks to mean that since MCP now believes the girls were put into a car in the mall parking lot, that they never got as far as their usual walking route home. I do not think he was referring to the "path through the woods" which has been discussed in detail here.

    That usual route has been as discussed in earlier threads, but basically it would have started with them crossing the parking lot perimeter road to the east end of Faulkner, down Faulkner to Drumm , and then west on Drumm, past Devin, to McComas. It was near that intersection where a walking path through a wooded area began, ending at a vacant lot on Jennings. A short walk on Jennings past houses would have taken them to their home on the corner of Jennings and Plyers Mill Road.

    MCP has never officially expressed doubts about the Drumm/Devin sightings, nor have they discredited the witnesses who claimed to have seen the girls there.

    It is not known if Mr. Mann was ever interviewed by MCP or if he told them in 1975 that he had seen the girls on 25 March. He came to our attention for the first time in 2005 when he was interviewed by a newspaper reporter on the occasion of the 30 year anniversary of the girls' disappearance. He related to the reporter how he remembered waving to the girls.

    Mr. Mann worked in the service department of a long established car dealership in 1975 and was with them for many years. He did not go into any detail as to why he happened to be home on that particular Tuesday afternoon. It is possible that he only learned of the girls possibly making it to the corner where he lived and recalled having waived to them on a different occasion. He has since passed away.

    The two eyewitnesses who came forward to police some time in late March or early April 1975 to state that they had seen the girls walking down Drumm near Devin were boys between the ages of 15 and 18 who were in a car, driving on Drumm behind the girls. Neither was named by police or press. They came forward with their information after an earlier reported 7:30 PM sighting of the girls was doubted publically by police in a press briefing.

    Over the years, some investigators have expressed doubts about that reported sighting, but they were never officially discredited.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavfam View Post
    Confused by the turns in the case especially how the sightings of the girls walking home have now been discarded. In addition to the boys identifying them on the walk home from the mall, there was also Mr. Mann in his yard (Drumm and Devin) at around 2:30 p.m?

    Also ties into many previous discussions about no sightings of them being abducted from the mall area. Even though the backside of the Plaza (Montgomery Ward's) was more isolated, it still seems highly unlikely that there would be no one seeing anything there. Unless LE is not sharing....don't understand this shift to them never leaving the plaza area.

    Has anyone seen any explanation of this in the recent news reports?
    It's my opinion that even honest eyewitness testimony is just far less than 100% reliable, especially for ordinary events such as seeing two girls walk down a street. Did you seem them, one of a hundred other kids you saw last week, on Friday or Saturday or were they some other kids? Two of the kid eyewitnesses did know the Lyon sisters from school and or the swim club. I had a similar discussion with Writable if a 10-year-old Thomas would absolutely remember a car ride or the kids in the car with him.

    I somehow doubt the police (or anyone) would believe multiple-conviction child abuser Lloyd without corroborating evidence. The only other evidence we know of is the half-dozen or so attempts by someone using a badge at the mall, but the police may or many not have more evidence.

    I still think there is a good chance the girls did walk down Drumm Ave and met Lloyd in the woods/path, where Lloyd made his move such as, "Do you want a drink or smoke some weed," and things got out of hand when he got grabby.
    Last edited by steveP120; 02-28-2015 at 01:55 PM. Reason: typo

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveP120 View Post
    It's my opinion that even honest eyewitness testimony is just far less than 100% reliable, especially for ordinary events such as seeing two girls walk down a street. Did you seem them, one of a hundred other kids you saw last week, on Friday or Saturday or were they some other kids? Two of the kid eyewitnesses did know the Lyon sisters from school and or the swim club. I had a similar discussion with Writable if a 10-year-old Thomas would absolutely remember a car ride or the kids in the car with him.

    I somehow doubt the police (or anyone) would believe multiple-conviction child abuser Lloyd without corroborating evidence. The only other evidence we know of is the half-dozen or so attempts by someone using a badge at the mall, but the police may or many not have more evidence.

    I still think there is a good chance the girls did walk down Drumm Ave and met Lloyd in the woods/path, where Lloyd made his move such as, "Do you want a drink or smoke some weed," and things got out of hand when he got grabby.
    Or even, if Lloyd had the use of a car, or was riding with someone, "Would you girls like a ride?"

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveP120 View Post
    I still think there is a good chance the girls did walk down Drumm Ave and met Lloyd in the woods/path, where Lloyd made his move such as, "Do you want a drink or smoke some weed," and things got out of hand when he got grabby.

    Yes, SteveP120. I too still think it had to have happened down Drumm Ave and/or possibly the woods/path. Nothing else has surfaced to go along with the grabbing at the plaza scenario---at least that I have seen.

    In addition, I have always thought that it was too weird of a coincidence that LLW was caught two years later for a burglary right on the street where the path starts---Hobson. If nothing else, it shows he was familiar with the streets around there. Or some psychological connection to the place, i.e. going back to the scene of the crime....

  15. #75
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    Hmm......I really don't think the Lyon girls or their community in general (IN GENERAL...I know I do not speak for everyone; LLW and the Lyon family were two very different elements) featured children who would have been tempted by dope or drinking at ages ten and twelve, so I think they may have been offered a ride, instead of weed. While LLW probably did do a lot of illegal things at a young age, the girls were from a part of the community that was more standoffish about getting involved with crime. Unfortunately, most kids will accept rides from strangers, no matter how many times we tell them not to, and the idea of two children being successfully coaxed to get into a car seems likely enough.

    Even though the path was wooded, there still was not enough privacy to get away with the murders of two people on it.

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