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  1. #1
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    Panama - Lisanne Froon, 22, & Kris Kremers, 21, Boquete, 1 April 2014 - #7

    Police in Panama are hunting two young Dutch women who disappeared after making plans to go on a country walk near the mountain town of Boquete.
    http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...n_disappea.php

    The women still have not been found.
    A Facebook page has been created for them: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lisan...88075314805262
    Previous threads

    #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6
    Last edited by bessie; 03-17-2015 at 03:10 AM.

  2. #2
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    Here my updated map with the latest findings (click on it for a larger version), with the help of local guides Baru and Feliciano:


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    Panama - Dutch women Lisanne Froon, 22, & Kris Kremers, 21, Boquete, 1 Apr 2014 , #7

    Dutch women missing in Panama are confirmed dead

    In a statement, Ms Kremers' family said they "had to confront the tough news that, just like Lisanne, Kris also died during her trip to Panama".

    Local prosecutor Betzaida Pitty said so far no-one was being investigated in connection with their deaths.

    Ms Kremers and Ms Froon were last seen on 2 April near Boquete, where they had travelled to do social work with children after completing a two-week Spanish course.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28018749

  4. #4
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    Well, I have made a map, very inaccurate ofcourse and I'm not handy with these things, but this is what I wanted to demonstrate. Yellow line=Pianista+Mirador crossing, Red line=Sinaproc route
    On April 3, Feliciano searches the Pianista
    On April 4, Sinaproc joins the searches starting on various trails starting on the Boquete side
    On April 5, Sinaproc searches the Pianista further and crosses the Cordillera, towards Bocas and Alto Romero. Did they cross the CD at the Mirador on that first day?
    If not, why not? That is where the search across the CD should start, if Pianista trail is in the picture.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #5
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    Public Procecuter Bethsaida Pittí concludes that women died in river

    Report in Panama America: http://www.panamaamerica.com.pa/naci...a-de-hipotesis

    Arrocha duda de hipótesis


    27/9/14 - 12:00 AM

    The prosecutor of Chiriqui, Bethsaida Pittí, has come to the conclusion that Lisaane Froon and Kris Kremers died by being dragged in the Culebra river, according to a written report from the Public Ministry delivered this week to the parents.

    But in this hypostheis there does not exist proof what so ever, denounced Enrique Arrocha, the family lawyer of the missing women of April 1 on the Pianista trail, district of Boquete.

    The first thing the lawyer poses is that if it's like the prosecutor of Chiriqui states there should be marks on the bones of both women. "How come the bones don't show bruising from being dragged," asks the lawyer.

    The argument of Arrocha has validity because it coincides with the analysis performed by the Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences (IMELCF) which determined that no bone analyzed showed sign of trauma. "Microscopic studies were made and no actual bony structures had finding of trauma," said Diomedes Trejos, coroner IMELCF.

    Another point referenced by the lawyer is the current of the river in question and its dragging capacity in the period in which Lisanne and Kris disappeared.

    When consulted about this aspect, Diego González, head of hydrology Etesa explained that rivers of Boquete and Bocas del Toro had a regular river condition in late March and early April despite its location and geographical features these are considered mountain streams. "They are fast rivers; in April there was some flooding but nothing to be concerned about. The behavior of these rivers has been pretty normal at that time, "said the expert.

    What González did confirm is that a is a growing flood or heavy rain can drag large animals, people, and large stones. "If the person falls they could be hit with one of these rocks because usually the swollen tributaries of this kind drags these objects," he concluded.
    Forum rules: Don't tell others they are wrong. Don't tell others how to post. Don't personalize. Don't be rude or disrespectful. Don't copy/paste comments from a blog or journal.

  6. #6
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    Panama - Dutch women Lisanne Froon, 22, & Kris Kremers, 21, Boquete, 1 Apr 2014 , #7

    Please continue here for Lisanne and Kris



    Please be mindful of the rules. You can find them here:http://www.websleuths.com/forums/for...?159-The-Rules

    Thread #1

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    Thread #6

  7. #7
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    [ A group of six local guides getting lost in the same area, not very long ago. ]

    Quote Originally Posted by chiatos
    Weren't they eight, not six?
    I distinctly remember six. That number was required for a certain kind of jobs,
    it seemed.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryn View Post
    [ A group of six local guides getting lost in the same area, not very long ago. ]



    I distinctly remember six. That number was required for a certain kind of jobs,
    it seemed.
    Britta Sanders, reporter for RTL-News who was in Boquete ant the time, tweeted on June 24:
    https://twitter.com/BrittaRTLNieuws/...73246093516801

    Hoor van gids dat hij, samen met 5 gidsen uit #Boquete, zelf weleens 6 uur lang verdwaald is geraakt in gebied achter Pianista #LisanneKris

    Translation:

    Guide tells me that one time he and 5 guides from #Boquete got lost for 6 hours in the area beyond el Pianista #LisanneKris

    BBM

    Hope this helps whatever the problem was.
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity ~ Hanlon's Razor

  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by LibbyinTexas
    I just can not comprehend how anyone can ignore or dismiss the most compelling evidence that a crime occured or something extremely concerning right at that first 911/211 call when after that call no more pictures were taken.

    @BRYN ---How about the very reasonable desire to keep the remaining charge in their
    batteries for whatever might help them save their lives?

    In any case, someone not taking photographs is not evidence for crime.
    It doesn't point to anything in particular except a change in their state of mind.

    They had a camera they were also using...didn't need to on their phones. They liked to take pictures. I find it irresponsible to disregard their obvious tendencies to snap pictures right up to the moments before the emergency call. Their state of mind would of had to dramatically change then...in that moment... a moment where they wouldn't of even been that lost... just realizing they might be lost... for them to completely stop taking pictures forever. If their state of mind changed in that moment.... it was because of something dramatic and significantly larger than being lost since it was only about an hour from the top.... they would of still been taking pictures ... only stopping...forever... if something really bad happened... beyond lost.

  10. #10
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    [ How about the very reasonable desire to keep the remaining charge in their
    batteries for whatever might help them save their lives? ]

    Quote Originally Posted by LibbyinTexas View Post
    They had a camera they were also using...didn't need to on their phones.
    A week later they or one of them used that camera's little flash in a last
    desperate attempt to draw the attention of a search party. It was part of
    their extremely limited resources. I can imagine various uses for it,
    perhaps so could they.

    Quote Originally Posted by LibbyinTexas View Post
    They liked to take pictures. I find it irresponsible to disregard their obvious tendencies to snap pictures right up to the moments before the emergency call. Their state of mind would of had to dramatically change then...in that moment... a moment where they wouldn't of even been that lost... just realizing they might be lost...
    They had certainly realized they were lost, that's why they started calling
    emergency numbers just after 16:30. Consider also that being lost was only
    part of their worries; by that time - more than three hours from the top of
    their walk - they could no longer reach even the continental divide before
    sunset, they were not at all prepared for spending a night out, and they
    were probably short of water, certainly short of food.

    Perhaps you would call 911, get no answer, and then continue taking
    snapshots because you "like to take pictures." I would not.

    Tastes and personalities do differ; in response to grave danger one does
    such, while another does so. Which is precisely why there is no point
    in trying to draw big conclusions when someone else stops taking photos.
    It simply points to nothing in particular, apart from an understandable
    change of mood.


  11. #11
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    New thread, new ideas?

    The case seems more or less abandoned. Not only by the media but also here and other places where it is discussed.

    What we would need is a comprehensive story. But based on the incomplete data we have, that is nearly impossible. If we would have all data, in high resolution, we might be able to build a scenario or a couple of them that covers all strange points.

    The problem now is that arguments for and arguments against are mixed together.

    "They did not take pictures to save battery" is a big assumption on an observation, stressed again by Libby, which is remarkable. "They did not see any reason to take photos (during 1 week), so they didn't". Again, assumption on assumption just to cover your own point.

    Apparently at least one of the girls possessed the camera on the night of April 7-8h. And that particular night, there seemed to have been no reason to "save battery". Then assuming they saved battery in the days April 1st 14:00 to April 8th 01:00 is a strange one. Especially regarding the many photos they took on their way to the top. Girls of that age take a lot of pictures. That they didn't, is a very strange fact which cannot be disregarded or "covered" by an assumption "yeah, no reason, don't bother about it".

    Bryns continuous pushing of "crime = impossible, it's all getting lost, nothing else, simply as that, no further questions", is also not helping much. Try to think outside of the box, or even forget the box.

    There are indications (not facts) towards a crime, there's motive, there's opportunity and there's the Panamese police who at the least were sloppy at the most unwilling to investigate properly and professionally.

    In order to make a crime scenario work, however, we need a more coherent story, a full review of all the facts, not just parts of it. Same holds for a getting lost scenario, but also that scenario is very tricky due to the small area the girls were in. And the long time they had to find their way back. With 12 hours of daylight, and that for days and days in a row, it is almost impossible to NOT find your way back. Only in the case both girls were completely immobile, that would have been possible. But then the backpack could not have been found so far downstream. And what about Kris' jeans? It seems she (at least) was able to reach the 2nd river crossing, which would have been impossible if she'd been completely immobile due to a severe accident.

    For crime there are indications in the sense that there are no photos between April 1st and 8th. None. Not a single one, to help guide you the way. Not to find back your (immobile?) friend when getting water from the river or the opposite; going uphill to look for reception.

    Especially for the first days that is strange. Later on when batteries were lower, it makes sense to save your last bit of hope. But in the earlier days, you try to get back and you're not hysterical about saving battery.

    It would be nice if we can cooperate and build a coherent scenario, whatever the cause of death or disappearance, consistency is the only way forward. If we want to keep sleuthing and not reproducing earlier points over and over again.
    The left is wrong, the right is stupid

    Video The Fatal Hike on El Pianista: http://youtu.be/0BlWmxr5dFQ

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    "They did not take pictures to save battery" is a big assumption on an observation, stressed again by Libby, which is remarkable. "They did not see any reason to take photos (during 1 week), so they didn't". Again, assumption on assumption just to cover your own point.
    Two women in serious trouble might conserve the energy in their tiny
    batteries - for life saving phone calls, and to use their camera as a light
    source. Then again they might not.
    The plain fact is that they didn't take photos, which doesn't allow us
    to draw any particular conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    Apparently at least one of the girls possessed the camera on the night of April 7-8h. And that particular night, there seemed to have been no reason to "save battery".
    Noting the fact that almost all the image files of that night weren't photos
    of anything, the Dutch Forensic Institute says they were recorded "presumably
    to draw attention" that is, accidental byproducts of aiming the flash about
    straight up and pressing the shutter button to fire it, again and again, for hours.
    If so, that last desperate attempt to draw attention was a reasonable use of the
    remaining charge in that camera's battery. But that's as good as it gets - it is
    no more than a reasonable assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    Then assuming they saved battery in the days April 1st 14:00 to April 8th 01:00 is a strange one. Especially regarding the many photos they took on their way to the top. Girls of that age take a lot of pictures. That they didn't, is a very strange fact which cannot be disregarded or "covered" by an assumption "yeah, no reason, don't bother about it".
    You've lost me there. They did have good reason to keep the remaining charge
    in their batteries for other uses, so it's not exactly strange that they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    Bryns continuous pushing of "crime = impossible, it's all getting lost, nothing else, simply as that, no further questions", is also not helping much. Try to think outside of the box, or even forget the box.
    I don't think I'd close my eyes for evidence of crime, but so far there is none.
    All this bias towards crime isn't helpful, our so it seems to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    There are indications (not facts) towards a crime, there's motive, there's opportunity
    No, there are no such indications. There is no motive either, as their
    belongings were recovered together with their backpack, including
    money, and no ransom was ever demanded. Finally, there was virtually
    no opportunity for the kind of elaborate crime you'd have to dream up
    to fit known facts like the use they made of their phones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    and there's the Panamese police who at the least were sloppy at the most unwilling to investigate properly and professionally.
    That's frankly uncalled for. Members of the Dutch police force went to
    Panama, had a look at how their Panamanian colleagues were dealing
    with this case and said in so many words that they couldn't do any better.
    Baru has given the local police force high marks.
    Neither the Dutch nor the Panamanian police have found anything that
    merits a criminal investigation. If I remember correctly, the Kremers
    employed a local private investigator for a while, who didn't come up with
    anything either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    In order to make a crime scenario work, however, we need a more coherent story, a full review of all the facts, not just parts of it. Same holds for a getting lost scenario, but also that scenario is very tricky due to the small area the girls were in.
    Actually, the story of the women getting lost can be very simple.
    The one made a couple of photos of the other in the process of
    getting lost, where she is shown crossing that quebrada at about
    14:00 on April 1st, and continuing in the wrong direction. A few
    hours later they started trying to call emergency numbers, which
    they continued doing during the next couple of days. Expected
    behaviour for people who find themselves lost and see no way
    to get themselves back on track.

    The next solid piece of evidence is their backpack and where it was found.
    The river couldn't have taken it there without destroying everything inside,
    so they or one of them put it there.

    People who fit their profile - dreadful lack of preparation for the situation
    they found themselves in, an apparent lack of relevant navigation skills -
    quite often crack on regardless, once they know they are lost. No U-turns.

    Given their probably total lack of food, the clothes they were wearing
    and their lack of means to start a fire or any tools at all, they had just
    two or three days of good enough mobility left. So within that space
    of time, that is by the 5th at the latest, they or at least one of them
    reached the location where the backpack was found.

    It's reasonable to assume that they would have travelled together,
    if only because all their resources appear to have been in the backpack.
    So if only one of them made it that far, the other may well have suffered
    a fatal accident, perhaps near the spot where the shorts were found.

    As your recently quoted map shows, both locations were outside the
    area covered by search parties. So it's not much of a mystery that they
    weren't found in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    And the long time they had to find their way back. With 12 hours of daylight, and that for days and days in a row, it is almost impossible to NOT find your way back.
    You seem to underestimate the effect of having nothing to eat and
    spending nights rough in shorts and sleeveless shirts.
    They didn't have much time. Really no more than a couple of days.
    After that they were to ill to hike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    Only in the case both girls were completely immobile, that would have been possible.
    By no later than the 5th they would have been effectively immobile,
    unless they found shelter and food.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    But then the backpack could not have been found so far downstream.
    Assuming my 'scenario' is basically correct, the backpack was found
    very close to the final resting place of at least one of them. Sadly there
    will most likely be no traces of it now - that landscape forgets quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    And what about Kris' jeans? It seems she (at least) was able to reach the 2nd river crossing, which would have been impossible if she'd been completely immobile due to a severe accident.
    There is no hard evidence for an accident, or of rivers being crossed
    at particular points. What we do know:

    The Dutch Forensic Institute pointed out that the iPhone's login
    pattern - involving two separate pin codes - changed "after the
    morning of April 5th." That is suggestive, because the curiously
    regular switch-on pattern established on April 2nd continued.
    This can't be due to the phone itself alerting the user that it wants
    her to do something, because after April 3rd the phones were
    powered down most of the time. Completely off. They had to be,
    because the Forensic Institute also reports that both phones were
    only half charged when the women started out on April 1st.
    (Note that Kris is wearing a watch on one of those 'wanted posters',
    so it appears that they had the means to keep to their switch-on
    schedule.)

    All that is easiest to explain by the women still being in full control
    of the iPhone, but no longer able to remember one of the pin codes.
    Which might indicate, but is no hard evidence for, Kris being no
    longer fully conscious.

    However, by that time they would have been at the location where
    the backpack was found, which means that the shorts would have
    been left behind for some reason. That would be peculiar but not
    necessarily inexplicable.

    Alternatively, there may have been a fatal accident as early as April
    2nd, very close to the river. That's plausible enough; they wouldn't
    have been very fit, though not yet unable to hike. All one has to do
    is slip and crack one's head on a rock.

    In that case Lisanne would have had to have known both pin codes,
    which is possible. By the 5th she may have thought that whatever
    she was trying to do with the iPhone didn't require a completed login,
    or perhaps she actually did forget one of the codes. She would have
    been quite ill by then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    For crime there are indications in the sense that there are no photos between April 1st and 8th. None. Not a single one, to help guide you the way. Not to find back your (immobile?) friend when getting water from the river or the opposite; going uphill to look for reception.
    The absence of photos is no evidence for crime. What you make
    of it depends on you. But what matters is why /they/ did what they
    did, and we can't ask them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    Especially for the first days that is strange. Later on when batteries were lower, it makes sense to save your last bit of hope. But in the earlier days, you try to get back and you're not hysterical about saving battery.
    You might have been a rather cavalier user of your meagre resources
    during those first days. I would have been very careful, and would
    certainly not have been taking photos. But that says something about
    you and me, nothing whatsoever about the two women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    It would be nice if we can cooperate and build a coherent scenario, whatever the cause of death or disappearance, consistency is the only way forward. If we want to keep sleuthing and not reproducing earlier points over and over again.
    Several coherent scenario's are possible. Many more if 'coherent' means
    'make it as complicated as you want.'

    But wouldn't it be more useful to let these pages show:

    - How easy it is to get into serious, even fatal trouble when you
    are not properly prepared for your hike, and haven't learned
    how to navigate the great outdoors.

    - What a fantastic job the Panamanians have done!
    Feliciano didn't just check whether they were alright,
    when the women didn't show up for their appointment.
    He managed to retrace their planned steps as early as
    April 3rd.
    Many others spent their own time and money trying to
    find them, and provided lunches for the official search
    parties. Who kept at it for weeks.
    Bethsaida Pittí gets black marks for dubious reasons;
    whatever else she did, she travelled to the location where
    the backpack was found, a 10-hour hike which put her
    in hospital for 3 hours. Hardly dereliction of duty.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torero View Post
    New thread, new ideas?

    The case seems more or less abandoned. Not only by the media but also here and other places where it is discussed.

    What we would need is a comprehensive story. But based on the incomplete data we have, that is nearly impossible. If we would have all data, in high resolution, we might be able to build a scenario or a couple of them that covers all strange points.

    The problem now is that arguments for and arguments against are mixed together.

    "They did not take pictures to save battery" is a big assumption on an observation, stressed again by Libby, which is remarkable. "They did not see any reason to take photos (during 1 week), so they didn't". Again, assumption on assumption just to cover your own point.

    Apparently at least one of the girls possessed the camera on the night of April 7-8h. And that particular night, there seemed to have been no reason to "save battery". Then assuming they saved battery in the days April 1st 14:00 to April 8th 01:00 is a strange one. Especially regarding the many photos they took on their way to the top. Girls of that age take a lot of pictures. That they didn't, is a very strange fact which cannot be disregarded or "covered" by an assumption "yeah, no reason, don't bother about it".

    Bryns continuous pushing of "crime = impossible, it's all getting lost, nothing else, simply as that, no further questions", is also not helping much. Try to think outside of the box, or even forget the box.

    There are indications (not facts) towards a crime, there's motive, there's opportunity and there's the Panamese police who at the least were sloppy at the most unwilling to investigate properly and professionally.

    In order to make a crime scenario work, however, we need a more coherent story, a full review of all the facts, not just parts of it. Same holds for a getting lost scenario, but also that scenario is very tricky due to the small area the girls were in. And the long time they had to find their way back. With 12 hours of daylight, and that for days and days in a row, it is almost impossible to NOT find your way back. Only in the case both girls were completely immobile, that would have been possible. But then the backpack could not have been found so far downstream. And what about Kris' jeans? It seems she (at least) was able to reach the 2nd river crossing, which would have been impossible if she'd been completely immobile due to a severe accident.

    For crime there are indications in the sense that there are no photos between April 1st and 8th. None. Not a single one, to help guide you the way. Not to find back your (immobile?) friend when getting water from the river or the opposite; going uphill to look for reception.

    Especially for the first days that is strange. Later on when batteries were lower, it makes sense to save your last bit of hope. But in the earlier days, you try to get back and you're not hysterical about saving battery.

    It would be nice if we can cooperate and build a coherent scenario, whatever the cause of death or disappearance, consistency is the only way forward. If we want to keep sleuthing and not reproducing earlier points over and over again.
    I agree.... but how?

  14. #14
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    BRYN to Torero --You might have been a rather cavalier user of your meagre resources
    during those first days. I would have been very careful, and would
    certainly not have been taking photos. But that says something about
    you and me, nothing whatsoever about the two women.

    The girls weren't prepared to be on a hike... all they were thinking about was going up and down a trail casually.... shorts, tanks..... few munchies ....they weren't survivalist or into the whole preparedness, being resourceful mindset so its highly unlikely they were thinking....oh hey we shouldn't use the camera to take pictures or document because we might need to conserve batteries to use the flash in the night if we are here for days on end... because for one, camera batteries usually last a long time... and they weren't thinking they would be there a long time. They weren't thinking they were going to die at that point. And there is just NO way they would not take pictures if they could have. They weren't survivalist thinking these thoughts, especially in the beginning. And especially if a traumatic event happened or they thought they were lost, pictures would tell a story.... I can't remember the name of the movie...Into the Wild...thats it... but he accidentally ate poison potatoes and he documented the entire thing along with pictures to show what happened to him. And his camera lasted a verrryyyy long time. He was trapped and couldn't get off of this island area and was starving to death. He kept a journal, pictures and video. This was part of his being lost and what he did to leave a message. Every day. This is what most human beings, connected to other people, or who have family....will do. They did absolutely nothing at all to send a message or document or pictures or anything to their family at all... NOT normal. They would of if they could. It is not normal that they did not.

  15. #15
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    The case will be open until december or january, according to La Prensa.

    The shoe(s) are still investigated.

    http://www.prensa.com/uhora/locales/...abierto/420413

    And in La Estrella:

    http://laestrella.com.pa/panama/naci...landa/23819204

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