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  1. #1

    Station Wagon--Late 1960's or 1970's

    I am VERY EXCITED to hear of this latest information, which to me, confirms mdietz47's story of seeing the station wagon, the driver and Sheila.

    I don't quite understand his comments on Facebook regarding his belief that DeBardeleben was the kidnapper, etc...

    I would GUESS that mdietz47 may be under a gag order since HE has SO MUCH INFO on the vehicle.

    Who is the recent new person on websleuths that saw a security guard that would bring his dog and keep it in the station wagon?

    Would it be helpful if that person reports to Bedford County Police also?
    She has stated that she contacted MCP already.

  2. #2
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    The Washington Post is reporting a search for a station wagon that might have been used in the abduction of the sisters.

    Investigators specifically want to speak with anyone who knows about a station wagon, built in the late 1960s or early 1970s. The car might have been driven to Bedford County, Va., in 1975, and once it arrived, someone might have tried to hide it, perhaps in a barn or shed...

    In a statement Thursday, the Bedford County Sheriff’s Office said a station wagon, which “has been associated with the crime,” was seen in Bedford “shortly after the abduction of Sheila and Katherine Lyon.”...

    Officials did not describe the car’s color or other characteristics, but they indicated that people should call if they remember seeing such a car being towed from a piece of property.

    “This vehicle may have been hidden in, or removed from, a barn, shed or outbuilding,” the sheriff’s office said...


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...y.html?hpid=z5

    I'm not sure if this lead relates to the reported Manassas station wagon, but it does not seem coincidental. I have stated here before that I am skeptical about the information from the Manassas tipster. Here are the reasons why-

    1) Tipster claims he saw Sheila Lyons in the back seat of the SW and she was still wearing her glasses. This was several weeks after the abduction.

    2) Tipster claims he could see her eye color. Through his own auto glass, the station wagons auto glass AND through her eyeglasses??? From what distance?

    3) The location in Manassas is not a logical route if Bedford, VA was the destination and the Welches are the culprits..

    I understand that memories are hazy and that when questioned by LE that groups of eyewitnesses will honestly report seeing very different things. Perhaps the Manassas witness is partially wrong, partially right or totally wrong. Just seems odd.

    Sadly my premonition is that both girls were probably assaulted and killed soon after the abduction. The long term kidnappings happen but with rarity compared to the sex offending murderers who strike and move on.

  3. #3
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    I have commented on the station wagon in other threads of this topic, but would like to make a couple of observations here.

    It appears that investigators are attempting to connect the 1 April 1975 sighting in Manassas of a Ford Station Wagon with the ongoing searches in Bedford County, VA. I think that it is directly related to the Manassas sightings, but it appears that they are searching for leads, rather than confirming those sightings.

    This is not unreasonable and it does seem be an attempt to connect some loose ends.

    One must be careful to jump to conclusions, however...

    Saying that the search for an old station wagon confirms the Manassas story is a bit like the story of the town Watchmaker who had a large clock hanging outside his store. Every morning a man in a suit would stop by the front of the store, look up at the big clock and set his watch to it. One day, the man entered the store and the Watchmaker engaged him in conversation, mentioning that he had seen him setting his watch to the large clock every morning. The well dressed man stated that he was the time keeper at the local factory and it was his job to sound the noon whistle every day at precisly Noon. The Watchmaker replied, "That's interesting - I've been setting that big clock every day to the noon whistle."

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I have commented on the station wagon in other threads of this topic, but would like to make a couple of observations here.

    It appears that investigators are attempting to connect the 1 April 1975 sighting in Manassas of a Ford Station Wagon with the ongoing searches in Bedford County, VA. I think that it is directly related to the Manassas sightings, but it appears that they are searching for leads, rather than confirming those sightings.

    This is not unreasonable and it does seem be an attempt to connect some loose ends.

    One must be careful to jump to conclusions, however...

    Saying that the search for an old station wagon confirms the Manassas story is a bit like the story of the town Watchmaker who had a large clock hanging outside his store. Every morning a man in a suit would stop by the front of the store, look up at the big clock and set his watch to it. One day, the man entered the store and the Watchmaker engaged him in conversation, mentioning that he had seen him setting his watch to the large clock every morning. The well dressed man stated that he was the time keeper at the local factory and it was his job to sound the noon whistle every day at precisly Noon. The Watchmaker replied, "That's interesting - I've been setting that big clock every day to the noon whistle."
    Agreed. It doesn't actually confirm anything.


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    "It's unbelievable that people can disappear off the face of the Earth without a trace when they find dinosaur bones and identify them." ~ John Lyon

  5. #5
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    Doesn't the MVA (MD) or DMV (VA) have records on cars these suspects have owned? Could it be that the reason they wonder if the station wagon is still hidden is because there is no record of it being sold? What about insurance for the vehicle? There is more to this than we are being told.

  6. #6

    Angela Hatcher Speaks with Marshall Dietz!


  7. #7
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    Insurance Company and DMV Records...

    Quote Originally Posted by isilverbell View Post
    Doesn't the MVA (MD) or DMV (VA) have records on cars these suspects have owned? Could it be that the reason they wonder if the station wagon is still hidden is because there is no record of it being sold? What about insurance for the vehicle? There is more to this than we are being told.

    Good questions. I know that Maryland Department of Natural Resources (which registers boats) can give you a print out of all previous owners of any given boat. But I do not know how far back Maryland's Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) registration records go - or if they could come up with a list of owners for a given vehicle.

    Motor Vehicle laws regarding titling and registration vary from state to state. Some require you to turn in a tag to get a partial refund when selling, transferring, or totaling a vehicle. Most just let the registration lapse if not re-newed. But it is quite possible for there to be a valid state title (not registration) years and years after a vehicle is retired, stored, dumped, stolen, or junked.

    Insurance Company records probably vary from one company to another regarding who owned a given vehicle. But their records probably go by VIN number rather than by State Tag numbers.

    I know that my own insurance company can list all of the vehicles which I have owned and insured with them. Each vehicle is given a number by the company which does not change. For example, my policy might have a line which refers to Vehicle Number 21 and then lists its VIN and description, followed by the various coverages. Previously owned/insured vehicles are not listed on my current policy, but the insurance company would have descriptions of each one in their histroy files.

    The problem in this case is that while there was a station wagon described (somewhat differently) by at least two witnesses, there is no Vehicle Identification Number associated with it. So trying to find that specific vehicle in any records would be extremely difficult. One might try to link a specific suspect with a car of that description by looking at his DMV title and registration record for all states of residence and at his Insurance Company records.... But all that would give you is that he at one time owned a vehicle similar to the one seen in 1975.

    However, IF a record could be found for a similar car, and IF that car could be located today and connected to a suspect, perhaps some physical evidence or DNA might be found still in the vehicle which could contribute to solving the case.

  8. #8
    A few thoughts about the "station wagon." Growing up as a kid in PG county in the 70's, our family had a station wagon, as did many families in our neighborhood. I remember our 1972 Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser SW from Pohanka Olds in Marlow Heights very well (the leaky sunroof, vinyl seats, whitewall tires...) and I remember many of our neighbor's cars / station wagons too. As a matter of fact our family has dozens of pictures of our old SW over the years (in the driveway, on vacations, holidays, etc...) There were also many pictures of us as kids in our yard with a view of our street and neighbors houses with all of their cars in the background.
    So, somebody out there knows a person close to them (family member, friend, neighbor) that had a SW that matches the description of the SW given by LE. I would guess that this was just one item that the grand jury in Bedford was looking into when they brought people in. Also I would think by now that LE would have gone through RAW's (from the search warrant) and any other available related Welch family member photos looking for any pictures with SWs in them. That might be where they got the pic of RAW standing next to the blue Ford SW. Just for an example, I saw on the web a picture of nephew LLW2 when he was about 10 yo. standing next to the W family SW (btw, it does not look like the SW described by LE). LE likely would have also spoken with anybody that knows the 2 POIs and asked about the cars they've owned over the years. They probably are also looking into the vehicles owned by yet to be named persons of interest that we don't know about.

    Something else to consider; usually most people that had a SW had a wife and kid(s). I'm thinking that if one day our family SW was suddenly gone, hidden (in a barn?) , stolen, in an "accident" or somehow unaccounted for,... I would have remembered an event like that even 40 years later today. I could just imagine Mom saying to Dad, "Where the hell is our family station wagon?" Some person(s) out there, perhaps from Hyattsville, Wheaton or Bedford knows it was more than a coincidence that in 1975 a person close to them had a SW like the one LE described.

  9. #9
    I really hope A LOT OF LEADS are coming in regarding the station wagon!!!

  10. #10
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    A photo was recently released by MCP which allegedly shows POI Richard Welch beside a blue, wood paneled station wagon. That undated photo can be seen in the below Link.

    The vehicle in the photo is a 2 door Ford Pinto Squire wagon.

    The Pinto station wagon debuted on February 24, 1972. Its overall length was 14 feet 5 inches. One model of that station wagon was the Pinto Squire wagon which featured faux wood side paneling similar to the full-size Country Squire.

    Neither the IBM man nor Marshall Deitz described the vehicle that they saw on 7 April 1975 in Manassass, Virginia as a compact or as a Pinto, but rather as a full size Ford Station Wagon.

    LINK:

    http://www.wset.com/story/27454017/n...xX4lw.facebook


  11. #11
    I know Marshall Deitz, who worked for IBM in 1975, reported a sighting of a station wagon on April 7, 1975. But was there actually another witness, who also worked for IBM, who reported a similar sighting of a station wagon on that date? If there really was a second witness, does any one know if that person is still alive?

  12. #12
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    The IBM Man...

    Quote Originally Posted by Historydetective63 View Post
    I know Marshall Deitz, who worked for IBM in 1975, reported a sighting of a station wagon on April 7, 1975. But was there actually another witness, who also worked for IBM, who reported a similar sighting of a station wagon on that date? If there really was a second witness, does any one know if that person is still alive?
    If you read some of my earlier posts and summaries about the Lyon Case, you will see that I refer to an unnamed witness who worked for IBM and who described the incident in Manassas involving a 1968 Tan Ford Station Wagon. He was never identified by name in any MCP press releases or in any news paper articles.

    The "IBM Man" is not the same person as MDeitz, who also worked for IBM at the time of his sighting of a Ford Station Wagon in Manassas, although it is quite possible that both men saw the same vehicle about the same time.

    When I wrote the case summary back about 1999, I had never heard of MDeitz. He began posting in this forum a few years ago and stated that he, too, had seen the Station Wagon AND that he had reported it to Montgomery County Police at the time. He was never mentioned by MCP in their press releases regarding the incident, but there were some reports which mentioned "other people" sighting the Tan Ford Station Wagon, or a car like it on the same day (7 April 1975).

    I do not know if the "IBM Man" is still living or if he has been contacted in recent years. MCP detectives stated to me several years ago that he had been questioned several times and that his story did not change. According to press reports at the time, the IBM Man thought that the driver of the Station Wagon looked like the sketch of the Tape Recorder Man which had been released 6 days earlier.

    While it is quite likely that both the first IBM Man and MDeitz witnessed the same incident (although with slightly different descriptions of events) one has to consider various possibilities as to what it was that they saw. Some of those possibilities are:
    - an actual sighting of the Lyon sisters being moved throught Virginia two weeks after they went missing.
    - A man driving his daughters to school and mistaken for someone traveling with the Lyon sisters.
    - A hoax intentionally perpetrated by someone who (for whatever reason) wanted people to think that they had seen the Lyon Sisters.
    - Some other reasonable explanation

  13. #13
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    The Tan Ford Station Wagon story from the case summary...


    Quote - On Monday 7 April 1975, at 7:30 AM, a witness in Manassas, Virginia reported that he saw two young girls bound and gagged in the back of a beige 1968 Ford station wagon.

    This sighting was at the corner of Grant and Center Streets in Manassas. When the driver of the car (a man who the witness said resembled the composite sketch of the TRM suspect) saw that he was being followed and watched, he accelerated, ran a red light, and drove west on route 234 toward Interstate 66.

    It was reported that the vehicle had Maryland plates, possibly with the following letter/number combination: DMT-6**. The last two numbers could not be seen because the plate was bent. That combination of letters had been issued in Cumberland, Hagerstown and Baltimore, Maryland. A search for all possible combinations of those plate numbers failed to produce any information. - Unquote.

    The witness referred to was a man who worked in management for IBM. MCP interviewed him several times and his story never changed.

    Maryland had just changed their license plates starting in January 1975 to a new color combination, Red letters/numbers on a white back ground. This was to be their "Bicentennial" plate, something that almost all states did to commemorate the Bicentennial of the United States. While some states had rather elaborate designs, Maryland simply changed from Black to Red letters/numbers on the plates.

    Because this was a new plate, Maryland DMV stations around the state were issued stacks of them to issue. All registrations and re-registrations were done on paper at the time, and later entered into a central database. This consolodation, had not yet taken place, and so investigators had to go to the several DMV sites and physically sort through stacks of paper records. This was done and a list of all 100 plates which began with "DMT-6xx" was compiled and each vehicle owner contacted and checked out. No Tan Ford Station Wagons with the plate were located.

    This was a very literal search, specificly looking for "DMT-6xx". An expanded search/sort using other possible combinations and alterations of that number might come up with something of interest if those 1975 coalated plate numbers and records are still available today.

    If that compiled list of 100 "DMT-6xx" plates still exists in the Lyon case file, investigators might be able to refer to it and see if there are any names associated with any of the suspects or persons of interest who have been named in the past. Perhaps someone borrowed a set of those plates in April 1975 and then returned them.

  14. #14
    Just a thought here...The Welch's (Richard and Lyod's father) both lived in Maryland (PG County). But because of their connection to property in Virginia (Thaxton/Bedford County) they may have had their vehicles registered in the state of Virginia. Don't know if LE has looked into this possibility and if so if they found anything such as make and models of vehicles registered in Virgina by Welch family members, especially during the 1970's (1975 to be exact). As simplifymylife2014 noted, I too recall reading that Marshall Dietz said he saw a Virgina sticker of the windshield of the stationwagon. Another possibility for that observation. That stationwagon was purchased in the state of Virginia and had that sticker in the winshield at the time it was purchased and was never removed by the new owner who then registered the vehicle in the state of Maryland. A friend of mine did this and when I said, Oh, you bought your car in Virginia? they wondered how I could possibly know that. Well, they had forgotten to scrape off the Virgina sticker from the inside of their windshield! They live in Maryland and had Maryland tags.

  15. #15
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    Thanks! Bumping again!
    Media thread for Abby and Libby.


    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...5#post13163455

    WebSleuths Lingo thread.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...bsleuths-Lingo

    Unless I provide a link, every one of my posts are to be considered rumor, Speculation, or simply MY OWN OPINION.

    We are the watchers. We are witnesses. We see what has gone before. We see what happens now, at this dangerous moment in human history. We see what's going to happen - what will surely happen - unless we come together: we - the Peoples of all Nations - to restore peace and harmony and balance to the Earth, our Mother.


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