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  1. #1

    Questions raised on use of force by police

    Three separate investigations have been launched into Cincinnati's first death in police custody since Roger Owensby Jr. was suffocated in 2000 -- raising questions about use of force that provide a troubling backdrop to today's swearing-in ceremonies for the new City Council.
    http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/01/cmain120103.html

    Calling the death of Nathaniel Jones, 41, of Northside "the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back," Calvert Smith, president of the Cincinnati chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said the NAACP will launch its own investigation into the incident.
    http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/01/subcop120103.html

  2. #2
    Videotape of beating, death stirs Cincinnati
    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...custody02.html

  3. #3
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    Why is it so hard for some people to show respect to the police when they are arrested? Were they never taught respect? Do what they tell you to do and you won't have trouble, simple as that. I just have a hard time finding sympathy for these people who obviously don't care about the lives of the police who put it all on the line for US everyday.

  4. #4
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    Just one time I would like to hear representatives from the NAACP say something to the effect of:

    "The police officers were attempting to arrest the suspect and he resisted arrest and assaulted the police and they had to use force in order to protect themselves."

    IF they could say something to that affect, I would tend to listen to them when they have a legitimate claim of police abuse or racism.

    This guy on the tape was clearly trying to hurt these police officers and they had every right to protect themselves and do whatever was necessary to take him into custody. The fact that he was grossly overweight, had apparent heart trouble and was taking illegal narcotics was what killed him.

  5. #5
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    When a police officer issues an order, it must be followed--whether you did anything or not. Many police officers have been killed for not taking action quickly enough to subdue individuals.

    I am not a police lover, but I am smart enough to know not to resist if an officer stops me for any reason. Even if you have been wrongly stopped or arrested, it won't help your case if you resist. I believe that you can even be charged with "resisting arrest" for questioning the officer.

    So, I say, do as you are told and wait for the right time to ask questions and get the problem resolved.

    I used to work in downtown Cincinnati for years. I can tell you that it is a well-run, safe, clean city--even after dark. This is due to the law enforcement there. They are not prejudiced or racist as these black groups would have you believe. As long as you are a law-abiding citizen, you have nothing to fear.

    If these organizations have their way, the city will go down the tubes. There will be drugs, prostitutes, robbery, etc. No one will want to be downtown, except the criminals.
    Last edited by nanandjim; 12-08-2003 at 09:44 PM.

  6. #6
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    Why do we never hear about all the times the police make an arrest without any problem?

    I can not imagine how difficult their jobs are, or what terrible things they have to see on a daily basis.
    How many of us have to strap on a gun everyday when we go to work knowing it may become necessary to use it to protect our lives?

    Anybody who is stupid enough to not cooperate 100% when stopped by the police should not be surprised when force is used.

    IMO the NAACP should have to go along side by side with the police for a good month and see what it's really like to be a police officer, they will see that the color of skin has nothing to do with it, however the fear of protecting ones life does!!!!
    this is just my opinion, it may be wrong, user beware!

  7. #7
    COP BEATING RULED HOMICIDE
    http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/12538.htm

    Positive gains are canceled out
    http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/04/cimage120403.html

    Crowd grills officials on death
    http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/04/cforum120403.html

    One of the questions that troubles the family of Nathaniel "Skip" Jones most about his death Sunday in police custody is why paramedics at the scene left before officers subdued him.
    http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/04/cdept120403.html

    Family urging calm in wake of Jones' death
    http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/04/cfam120403.html

    Council is divided on racial lines
    http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/04/csplit120403.html

    The drug PCP, which was found in the body of Nathaniel Jones during autopsy, often makes its users violent, according to the National Institute on Drug Abuse. http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/04/cpcp120403.html

  8. #8
    Cincinnati's mayor on Sunday urged the city to buy stun guns for its police force in response to the death of a man following a struggle with six officers a week ago.
    http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/sto...P&SECTION=HOME

    Jones remembered in upbeat service
    'Big Skip' not the man seen in the police videotape
    http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/07/...2-07-2003.html

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by nanandjim
    When a police officer issues an order, it must be followed--whether you did anything or not. Many police officers have been killed for not taking acting quickly enough to subdue individuals.

    I am not a police lover, but I am smart enough to know not to resist if an officer stops me for any reason. Even if you have been wrongly stopped or arrested, it won't help your case if you resist. I believe that you can even be charged with "resisting arrest" for questioning the officer.

    So, I say, do as you are told and wait for the right time to ask questions and get the problem resolved.

    I used to work in downtown Cincinnati for years. I can tell you that it is a well-run, safe, clean city--even after dark. This is due to the law enforcement there. They are not prejudiced or racist as these black groups would have you believe. As long as you are a law-abiding citizen, you have nothing to fear.

    If these organizations have their way, the city will go down the tubes. There will be drugs, prostitutes, robbery, etc. No one will want to be downtown, except the criminals.
    I watched the entire film taken by the squad cam.

    The issue is not whether the man resisted arrest.

    It is not whether he was beaten too severely in response to that resistance.

    The question is:

    Was he suffocated as he struggled to breathe by more than the weight of 6 men on him trying to make him perfectly still? Was he struggling to breathe as his staccato gasps indicate? Does LE have the right to force you to be still as you struggle to survive their smothering and killing you??

    I don't think so.

    When that man was down, 2 or three cops could have kept him safely restrained. The number of LE on that man WAS overkill. And it killed him, by suffocation/asphyxiation.

    He was struggling to BREATHE, not escape.

    As far as I know, LE doesn't have the right to suffocate you and force you not to move as you DIE!!!

    They should be charged with murder, and I predict they will be.

  10. #10
    I disagree. With the fight the man put up, he must have been strong enough that the officers felt putting 2 men on him would not be sufficient to hold him down.

    After struggling with the officers, how could they tell the difference between struggling to get free and struggling to breathe.

    Did the officers cover his mouth or nostrils? no.. Did they ingest him with drugs? no...

    I agree with Nanandjim that if we fight with police officers, we should expect them to protect themselves.


  11. #11
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    I seriously disagree with everything you wrote CrimeWatcher. This man ingesting drugs is the ONLY reason he was in that situation in the first place. The police officers have the right to defend themselves when being attacked as they were. Had this man not ingested the drugs and had not been seriously obese, he wouldn't have died. The struggle did play a part in that, but he put himself in that situation. Why don't people take out of this the message that they're supposed to follow directions when an officer tells them what to do. If they have a problem with those instructions there are legal remedies after the fact. Anyone who puts up a fight with the police is asking for, and will be, forced to comply.

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by Doyle
    I disagree. With the fight the man put up, he must have been strong enough that the officers felt putting 2 men on him would not be sufficient to hold him down.

    After struggling with the officers, how could they tell the difference between struggling to get free and struggling to breathe.

    Did the officers cover his mouth or nostrils? no.. Did they ingest him with drugs? no...

    I agree with Nanandjim that if we fight with police officers, we should expect them to protect themselves.
    No matter how you look at it, the end result is the man was suffocated. Now, if LE has the right to kill you to subdue you, something is wrong in this country.

    LE can be mad as heck, but it does not take 6 or more armed men to hold a man still for handcuffing. Besides, the man was so fat, he couldn't be expected to simply lift his hands behind his back from a face down prone position. Impossible.

    When those several cops were on top of that man, it was CLEAR from the video that they were not being jostled in the least, that the man was trying to breathe and was panicked. One of the cops actually told another that he could break the man's neck the way he was applying pressure, and the cop did not respond to the warning or release his hold. This was the cop that was 'assaulted' by the man and I guess he felt he needed to hurt the guy and really show his power, before he could regain his macho image sufficiently. An ego power trip thing, so common with some in LE. The bad apples.

    There was no 'danger' from this man to 6 plus armed men. It was a battle of wills is all. The 'danger' was long past. The man was on his stomach, face down, with 6 or more armed men on top of him!

    They wanted to make him be perfectly still, as a macho means of humiliating him and showing total control over him. Instead, they killed him by suffocating him.

    Now, if that is Ohio justice, Ohio is in for some serious and well deserved riots, IMO. For the first time, I agree with Maxine Waters. No justice, no peace.

    No matter what happened minutes prior, that man died from being sat upon by 6 or more men, and from being smothered to death by them.

    At the time they were killing him, he repeatedly indicated his stress and they ignored him. It's all on tape. You can watch them calmly kill the man. And then watch them slowly roll him over, and watch them say he has a pulse but is not breathing, watch them roll him over, but do nothing to assist him breathing, watch as the paramedics take their sweet time getting to him, and watch them begin chest compressions, giving him no air.

    At least a dozen armed cops at a scene with one 300 pound man, and they end the incident by sitting on him as he struggles for his life and asphyxiate him. Horrible. Then they let him continue to die as he is not breathing, has a bit of pulse left, but they do not do CPR. They killed him. The tape shows it clearly.

    Drugs or not. Big or not. Cooperative or not. Fighting or not. When the cops have the situation controlled, and they did, they do not NEED to suffocate a man to handcuff him.

    This was murder. In the first degree, as there WAS a warning of danger to the man by one of the cops to a cop putting extreme pressure on him. If one of the cops noticed it himself, why is it so hard for everyone else to see what he did? The cop he cautioned and the others refused to heed the warning and within a minute or two that man was dead, due to them suffocating him and cutting off his air supply. And finally due to them refusing him CPR.

    If the man struggled at the end, he was struggling to BREATHE!!!!

    The cops were holding him still so they could kill him without him moving a muscle????

    Come on, that is so horrific it's pathetic!

    If this was a white man, the calls for justice would be deafening.

    I can see why the African American feels betrayed in this country when he has to die because LE decides it's a 'danger' to them that he is fighting to BREATHE - fighting for his LIFE!!!

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by Jeana (DP)
    I seriously disagree with everything you wrote CrimeWatcher. This man ingesting drugs is the ONLY reason he was in that situation in the first place. The police officers have the right to defend themselves when being attacked as they were. Had this man not ingested the drugs and had not been seriously obese, he wouldn't have died. The struggle did play a part in that, but he put himself in that situation. Why don't people take out of this the message that they're supposed to follow directions when an officer tells them what to do. If they have a problem with those instructions there are legal remedies after the fact. Anyone who puts up a fight with the police is asking for, and will be, forced to comply.
    I agree with what you wrote.

    I draw the line at being forced to be completely still if you are fighting for your life. If you are being smothered!

    I don't believe LE felt that they were in SO much danger at the time several armed cops were on top of that man, that he had to be completely still or they could not release some pressure on him.

    I don't believe that LE felt they were in SO much danger when he lie dying in front of their eyes that they couldn't administer CPR.

    I mean, this was not Hannibal Lechter we're talking about here! This was an overweight, man who could not put his hands behind his back from a face down prone position if he tried!

    They crossed the line. Their power trip was a BAAAAD trip this time. And I think the flashbacks will be around for a LOOONG time.

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by CrimeWatcher
    ...The issue is not whether the man resisted arrest....
    The guy would be alive if he weren't on drugs and if he acted like a normal person when police arrived. It is unfortunate that the man died in the struggle; however, his obesity, his ingestion of drugs and his aggressiveness are what caused his death.

    Should the cops have waited to see what the guy would do next, perhaps grabbing one of their guns or nightsticks and beating or shooting them to death, before taking appropriate action?
    Last edited by nanandjim; 12-09-2003 at 10:18 PM.

  15. #15
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    Would this story even have made the news if the guy was white?

    Would it have made the news if the arresting officers were black?

    Do you think the perpetrator or the officers would have acted any differently either way?

    I don't ...

    With so many CC Cameras out there now Officers are going to start thinking twice and second guessing themselves for the potential audience... that is going to cost some lives

    Cass...

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