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  1. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayhuze View Post
    I have already conceded...you obviously don't read comments. yes, it could be a typo. You haven't examined the skull in person so you don't know either.
    Old argument, but since you didn't comment on my last post- this poster didn't need to examine Travis's skull in person, because it wasn't anatomically possible for the bullet to pierce the skull and not damage the dura mater, therefore; it not only could but HAD to be a typo in Dr. Horn's report.
    This is the year to locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin NamUs MP#876 and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff NamUs MP#6410 and bring them home to their families!

    Parents watch your children. Free-range parenting leads to more child victims.

    Cruelty to humans begins with cruelty to animals.

    I believe in closure, not forgiveness. I'm also unapologetically judgemental.

    JeSuisJuif
    JeSuisCharlie


  2. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayhuze View Post
    I think she actually went to the kitchen to get the knife. But she may have had a knife in her purse as the backup but still needed to leave the bathroom to get it, giving Travis time to stand alone at the sink looking at his head wound an bleeding from his nose and mouth, a much more reasonable conclusion then a stab to the vena cava. I don't think it's offensive at all. I think it's accurate. Do you think Flores misremembered all those times? not only on his supplemental but in two other conversations with Flores he was told that Travis would not have been immediately incapacitated. Why would that comment be offensive. I go where the facts take me.. Remember Flores saying "no, I wasn't inaccurate, I was mistaken" I don't believe that comment. I also don't believe that Horn can't ever remember speaking to Flores. I find that absurd. We all know Jodi is guilty of and committed first degree murder. I just disagree on the sequencing and I know why they did it. I am not a supporter of either side, but I agree with the conclusion of the Jury, but she should have got the death penalty the first time around. Now, there is very little chance of that. It just proves that the jury foreman lied and was not death qualified. How does one vote for 1st degree murder with special cruelty then not vote for death. all the evidence was in. Jodi has no mitigating factors whatsoever. All of her mitigating factors were contrived while in jail.
    The problem is time. Only 62 seconds. It's incredible that he chose to go hang out at the sink while she ran to get a knife. Why would he choose that instead of trying to get down the hallway? Can she shoot him, try to shoot him again, realize the gun is jammed, and while he's just chilling and making aching noises, run down the hall, down the stairs, into the kitchen, finds a knife, run back up, and he's still chilling, now at the sink? She's stabbing him, the camera somehow moves position and gets them on the floor, with what appears to already be the neck wound? in 62 seconds? If we look at the foot photo, we see watery blood in the left corner behind her foot. That makes it appear as if she's already dragging him back.

    I mean, that's a lot to ask for 62 seconds game-change plan to stabbing and throat slitting.

    I believe Jodi must say the gunshot came first because there's no other way to try to justify it. She can't justify a gratuitous shot to the head. But she can try to justify the shot wasn't enough and she was still in danger.

    When we think of her cornering him in the shower, to me, that's because she wants to contain the blood from stabbing. If she wanted it to look like a suicide, she could have shot him in the head at anytime and in any room of the house. You don't have to be in the shower to commit suicide. If she's cornering him to contain the crime scene, I'd think she was doing it to contain a lot of blood.

    That's a lingering question for me. If she just wanted to shoot him, that doesn't have to happen in the shower. If she didn't want anyone to find him, chances are, she knew locking his door would be enough to delay discovery. Not 6 dang on days, though. I'm sure THAT surprised her.

    It is a weird scenario for her to steal a gun and switch to a knife. But we don't know if she simply changed her mind. She had a long drive to think about it.

    Someone said before that she wouldn't take the camera because someone would know it was gone and somehow link that to her. It's more of a possibility, that she realized at some point that once Travis was shot, they would link that gun to her, so she changed her murder plot, isn't it?

    Let's face it, it's really stupid to steal a gun from your own house and within a week that same type of gun has been used in the murder of your ex--or his suicide. Maybe on the way down, she realized this and decided she would not use the gun. But then, in her own words, "He was still alive...conscious even..." after the throat slitting, so she shot him. I don't know that he was alive, or if when her paranoid brain saw his involuntary movements, she freaked out and shot him because at that point, nothing else was killing him.

    Jodi watched Court TV. I'm thinking she couldn't have been so stupid with the gun. Maybe she brought it in case a roommate caught her on the way out? I'm thinking she figured out what a bad idea using her grandpa's gun was. Maybe she didn't expect them to call the police and report it? Maybe she wasn't expecting the grandparents to remember the gun to add to the police report? Once she realized it would be traced to her, even if only by caliber of bullet, she changed plans?

    It could also be why the murder took so long. Stabbing is personal, takes a lot guts and nerve. I believe she'd planned to shoot him when she got there and then book it to Utah. If she broke every speed limit, it would work. Somewhere along the way, she realized using that gun was a bad idea. And Zach or whomever being home gave her a lot of time to think about that. Maybe realizing the roommate was there made her worry that someone would hear the gunshot, so she changed her plan.

    I don't know. I'm just brainstorming scenarios. I see in her journal that she was changing plans every entry when it came to this trip. Is it not possible that common sense told her not to use her grandfather's gun, but then the irrational moment of thinking he wasn't dead caused her to use it?

    Is it possible that she stole the gun to use on herself if she got caught?

    I'm open to her running downstairs to get the knife. If anyone knows how long of a trip that is, maybe she can pull all that off in 62 seconds. A minute seems long when you're looking at a stop watch. I have a small townhouse. I just trotted down and picked up the nearest thing in the kitchen and trotted back up. That took 43 seconds. Leaves me 22 seconds to stab and get Travis on the ground. I knew what I was doing and where I was going the second I hit the timer. Jodi had to watch him and see that the gunshot didn't work before deciding to go downstairs. How long should she have given him to decide she needed to do the most horrific act of stabbing? 5 seconds?

    There is a whole other minute and 16 seconds before the second floor picture. If the first floor picture was of her still stabbing, then maybe 62 seconds isn't an issue. We'd just have to know from the photo where the blood on his shoulder comes from.

    I do see that he's fighting. We can see him grip the wall of the closet right beside where his throat is slit. I don't think it's her fingerprints. I'm imagining she needs two hands to slit the throat. But if he was of that much consciousness, I don't see why he couldn't fight.

    I hate talking about this after reading his journal and text messages. I feel I know him as an associate or friend now. It's hard. I recall his talk with Lisa about the tire slashing. She was worried about letting him stake out the car at her house, and in the debate, he told her that if he ran into the slasher, he'd defend himself. Now, thinking of that makes me wonder where she put the gun before going to get the knife. I would think, though of course I'm not Travis shot in the head, that he'd get it while she was looking for a knife. Instead, he's hanging over a sink while during the fight for his life.

    If the gun was first, what makes the camera flip up and fall? I think it happened because he lunged at her and she stabbed him as he came at her. If we look at the picture of the ceiling, she's got part of the closet the shower door, the ceiling, and a long, diagonal view of the wall over that shower. that tells you that the camera isn't close enough for her to be shooting him in the head. She'd be in the picture if that was the case, wouldn't she?

    As for Dr. Horn, he sees policemen day in and day out. He sees one dead body after another. He performs autopsies all the time. He might have even seen Flores for other cases. Do I fault him for not remembering? No. Do I think Flores was making this stuff up? No. Do I think Flores misunderstood the explanation or Horn misunderstood Flores' question? Possibly. Do I think JM could have persuaded Horn to look deeper, yeah. Is Horn qualified to say what happens in the brain? I don't know.

    Is incapacitated and immediately incapacitated subjective? Yes. Could Travis have ambled down the hall? Given the statistics, slim chance, but maybe. For all the headshots in the world, the likelihood of walked and making meaningful movements it's high. It's been done, but the chances are low of it happening.

    As for the magic-bean-hopping bullet, no one kicked it. It doesn't appear to have dried water or blood on it to indicate it moved. that's pretty far for it to get kicked on a floor with grooves. Maybe it rolled over all the blood and floor groves to land on blood without getting blood all over it.

    Like I said, brainstorming. Not married to any of it.

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayhuze View Post
    yes, unfortunately, for your narrative, i said above, it's possible it was a typo. My main point is that I am 99.9 percent sure and convinced the gunshot was first and that Travis was not immediately incapacitated as horn stated at trial and 3 times to flores, even being mentioned on the supplemental. Flores stated "We believe the gunshot was first" in the 2009 48 hours special. This statement was never clerified or retracted. It never has been retracted. Who is the we. I suspect the prosecution team, including Horn and Martinez. Can anyone explain this to me?
    Respectfully, "we" can be Flores and the milkman. Horn isn't on the prosecutorial team. He's a witness and a coroner. JM, nor the police department, nor anyone else is required to correct or retract anything in the news. In fact, police sometimes feed fake information to the media to flesh out killers and confessions. An interview is not sworn testimony. Flores saying "we" is hearsay. He can't vouch for anyone. This is why jurors are only allowed to have facts. They couldn't use this interview without examination or cross-examination--or some type of stipulation where both sides agree that it's true and accurate.

    Because this interview is not sworn testimony, it can't be used, as Wilmot said, "as fact for the matter asserted." or however she worded it.

    You leave no room for the PT to develop their case, continue their investigation or change their conclusions based upon other information. You freeze the PT in time, as if they are required to stick to proposed "theories," and that's all they are -- theories. We know that, even with video tape, people are going to dispute what happened. Theories about what's really being seen on film are going to differ.

    I'm just not sure why the PT is not allowed to evolve their theory. Sometimes, what seem logical isn't what really happened, and with JA in the mix, you can bet she did the opposite of what she says. TA is the biggest expert on JA, and countless times, he has said what a liar she is.

    That's why I say let the typo go and let Flores go. Let Dr. Horn go. Nurmi tried his best to prove this conspiracy. It didn't work. As I said in another post, Horn sees tons of dead bodies, talks to tons of prosecutors and police day in and out. Just because this case is significant to us doesn't mean it holds the sam significance to him. It's just another body he examined, another testimony he has to give about the work he did. To expect him to perfectly remember seeing Flores and talking to Flores isn't realistic when he deals with men in blue day in and out.

    What Horn might have said to Flores is also hearsay unless they recorded it. Horn has no recollection, so Flores words are hearsay. Again, unless there's an official document. and even then, it's Horn's opinion only. An opinion weighted by his experience and knowledge, which would be held a heck of a lot higher than any of us here.

    Horn didn't have the best bedside manner, but he deals with the dead all day long. He also wasn't invested in this case, and it probably didn't faze him about a typo. I mean, Wilmot is right; his office should have fixed that. I don't know if Horn typed that himself of a staff member did it, transcribing his verbal notes. He trusts them to do it right. Does he have to read every single autopsy for errors after his trained staff types them up? He would be nowhere near 6,000 autopsies if he had to do that.

    Flores' police report has several typos. Should they proofread better? Yes. Is there a conspiracy? No.

    and as for people surviving gunshots to the head, someone said they are not "that rare." It's either rare of it isn't. If it's in the news a lot, it's because it's rare, not necessarily because it's prevalent. Look at how these news stories about police make it seem that police everywhere are bad. In reality, even the millions of police/citizen reactions that happen daily, police violence is rare. Because of the news, it seems rampant, though.

    So taking in mind the amount of people shot in the head and the amount that survive, that can walk, think, react, defend and fight versus die like Dr. Horn said, I believe the fighters are rare. If I find two 4 leaf clovers out of 100 clovers, that's rare.

    I also believe that steep angle with the distance to not cause stippling isn't possible. She'd have to be standing on a box to shoot him from two feet away to achieve that angle.

    We all know special things about the crime scene. For example, I know it's her left foot, not her right foot, in the photo. No one believes me when it's so obvious you can see TA's back where her right foot is supposed to be. Some believe there's a shoe in the second drag photo when it's obvious that it's her thumb in the picture instead. Some see her foot prints on the base of the shower, some don't. some see how bent up the shower door is. Some don't.

    But I know one thing, if you ever want to get to the truth of what happened, you have to entertain other theories. And the other thing I know is JM is privy to SO MUCH more information that we never even heard. So we can't discount what he says without really hard evidence. If he indeed changed his theory, there had to be a good reason for it. He is not perfect. He was wrong about the shaving picture. But he didn't get to where he is today by being wrong often, so....

  4. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by geevee View Post
    If that is a socked foot, where pray tell is the leg attached to the foot? Follow the arrow...

    Attachment 69736

    P.S. I see no reason why my opinions/conclusions shouldn't be treated politely, although direct, and occasionally insistent, I have always been polite and respectful of others here, as they nearly always are with me.
    You know I believe you. Except, I think that's the back of her left foot. I think that because of how her pants are flowing, where the zipper and stripes on the pants are, and how you can see the bump of her left shoe at the heel protruding at the heel line of the shoe. I believe her left shoe print was found on the floor. It's also her left shoe print on the base of the shower. I see Travis' back quite clearly. That black thing? After all these years, it now looks like a house shoe!

    In all seriousness, I think it's Travis' shadow. Look at your arrow and how that same white streak in it goes from the foot into the "black thing." Her right foot is probably on his right side and she's standing over him, kind of when his head between her legs. The left foot is mostly off the photo and you just see her heel. Her left foot is at an angle as depicted by the stripes and zipper on the pants.

  5. #500
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    Excellent work!!!

  6. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLSChook View Post
    Ummmmm, what? Lol
    Did you quote the wrong post? I didn't "snippet" anyone.
    I think Gray was referring to your profile tag or quote at the bottom of your comments.

  7. #502
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    Very god points! I'm clearly late to this thread, but I have followed this case very closely, almost obsessively! I have watched and rewatched the trial many times, contributed to discussions on FB, youtube and read every book I could get my hands on. I'm a big fan of Gray's work and admittedly have gone back and forth on what I believe about the sequence of events. Wizzy, are correct when you stated that everyone missed the "typo" in the ME's report. From my recollection, it was actually a juror question to Dr. Horn about the dura mater being intact. Horn looked back through his notes and admitted that the report did say the dura mater was intact, but claimed it was a typo as the bullet would have had to go through the dura mater...". I just read the documents that Geezee posted from '09 and the state did report that the shot was first in the sequence of the attack. I have struggled with reconciling what was said in court and what was said before the trial and let me tell you, the struggle is real! I really appreciate the debate/discussions because I learn so much and am challenged in my own beliefs, opinions, assumptions and my own personal bias. Thank you Gray for the challenge and for your very thorough and thoughtful hard work you put into your animations. I know it's not easy or pleasant to stick yourself out there with an unpopular belief and it takes courage to put your work and theories out there for public opinion. I've commented on a couple of your videos (Shellianne) and appreciate your feedback. Any who, my apologies for a long post. I signed up here in 2012, but just now started posting. I wish I had been active with you guys during the trial.

    m
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzy View Post
    I'm going to chime in here, hope it is OK. JMOO- I am open-minded,( I am NOT emotionally attached, and I'm not cold hearted either) and at the same time, I agree with the verdict, Premeditation, murder 1. JA most probably will never see the light of day, unless the verdict is overturned on an appeal. Dr. Horn's typo is a big deal, you have to understand this. He is a professional, so, no excuse for him. I don't believe that he didn't go over his report, at least a couple of times, knowing the world would see this important piece of evidence. The prosecution read the report, the defense read that report, neither found this mistake to my knowledge. This mistake was found in court. Someone pointed out to me that the word NOT was in the report and shouldn't have been. I understand the point, that it could have happened. That isn't a typo. That is a big mistake. It changes the whole report. If this typo, as Dr. Horn says, was all there was, nothing else concerning this, then I would except it, no questions asked. Unfortunately, here is where you have to be open minded, we have to also look at Det. Flores in this subject. He has said the gunshot first several times, his TV interview along with his pre=trial testimony it all matches the report as is, in evidence. Det. Flores also uses the word WE, many times, who is WE? My opinion is, Dr. Horn is the person he talked to. I don't know how Dr. Horn could not remember this (conversations). With all these things together they add up to maybe a appeals issue, or someone examining this issue somewhere down the road. (sigh) That is why it is so important. Example: you have a biopsy, (in simple language) Using Dr. Horns word, typo: The cells tested were NOT cancerous. When the test report should have said: The cells tested were cancerous. Isn't that a big deal? Esp. if it's your report. JMOO it is something we should all think about if you are following this trial.

  8. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasnt_me View Post
    You know I believe you. Except, I think that's the back of her left foot. I think that because of how her pants are flowing, where the zipper and stripes on the pants are, and how you can see the bump of her left shoe at the heel protruding at the heel line of the shoe. I believe her left shoe print was found on the floor. It's also her left shoe print on the base of the shower. I see Travis' back quite clearly. That black thing? After all these years, it now looks like a house shoe!

    In all seriousness, I think it's Travis' shadow. Look at your arrow and how that same white streak in it goes from the foot into the "black thing." Her right foot is probably on his right side and she's standing over him, kind of when his head between her legs. The left foot is mostly off the photo and you just see her heel. Her left foot is at an angle as depicted by the stripes and zipper on the pants.
    Hey WM, really sorry for not having seen this post before now. I do agree what we're seeing is her left foot, turning towards the camera and moving towards (our) left and upwards and right, look at the curl to the left of the fold in the middle of the pant leg (1 circled in pic), that's her big toe with blood-covered toenail, the line is underneath her other toes. The lighter area in the center of "T's head" (2 in pic) is actually blur from her foot, I do not believe that is his head at all but really need to see the actual digital pic to pin down what it is. I think you're right about her direction facing the camera, I think the hair shadow on the floor-to-pant leg shows that (3 in pic). I am coming to believe the blood line is the neck slash but I really want to see the original pic, the one from the book (below and tilted to reflect the angle of the camera lying upside down on the shutter button) is better than what we had but still not good enough.

    53216Bookrotatelabel.jpg

  9. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glamazon View Post
    Very god points! I'm clearly late to this thread, but I have followed this case very closely, almost obsessively! I have watched and rewatched the trial many times, contributed to discussions on FB, youtube and read every book I could get my hands on. I'm a big fan of Gray's work and admittedly have gone back and forth on what I believe about the sequence of events. Wizzy, are correct when you stated that everyone missed the "typo" in the ME's report. From my recollection, it was actually a juror question to Dr. Horn about the dura mater being intact. Horn looked back through his notes and admitted that the report did say the dura mater was intact, but claimed it was a typo as the bullet would have had to go through the dura mater...". I just read the documents that Geezee posted from '09 and the state did report that the shot was first in the sequence of the attack. I have struggled with reconciling what was said in court and what was said before the trial and let me tell you, the struggle is real! I really appreciate the debate/discussions because I learn so much and am challenged in my own beliefs, opinions, assumptions and my own personal bias. Thank you Gray for the challenge and for your very thorough and thoughtful hard work you put into your animations. I know it's not easy or pleasant to stick yourself out there with an unpopular belief and it takes courage to put your work and theories out there for public opinion. I've commented on a couple of your videos (Shellianne) and appreciate your feedback. Any who, my apologies for a long post. I signed up here in 2012, but just now started posting. I wish I had been active with you guys during the trial.

    m

    Quoting myself in response as to why Wizzy and Greyhuze are wrong and that it really was a typo that wasn't caught until trial:
    Quote Originally Posted by LinasK View Post
    No, that's just it. You CANNOT sustain a gunshot wound to the brain and have the Dura Mater be intact. It's not anatomically possible. It covers the brain. The only possible explanation is that Dr. Horn didn't edit his report and catch that the word "not" was left out.
    Quote Originally Posted by LinasK View Post
    Old argument, but since you didn't comment on my last post- this poster didn't need to examine Travis's skull in person, because it wasn't anatomically possible for the bullet to pierce the skull and not damage the dura mater, therefore; it not only could but HAD to be a typo in Dr. Horn's report.
    I studied brain anatomy and physiology for my Master's Degree. I know of what I speak.
    This is the year to locate Mark Dribin http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ht=Mark+Dribin NamUs MP#876 and Ilene Misheloff http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...lene+Misheloff NamUs MP#6410 and bring them home to their families!

    Parents watch your children. Free-range parenting leads to more child victims.

    Cruelty to humans begins with cruelty to animals.

    I believe in closure, not forgiveness. I'm also unapologetically judgemental.

    JeSuisJuif
    JeSuisCharlie


  10. #505
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    Back when we had the Sequence of Events thread going a physician was posting on it and he stated that the report was done in 2 parts, one for specific wound discussion and one generalized, the dura mater on the whole (apart from the gunshot) was smooth and undamaged. I haven't reread the autopsy report in quite a while but that explanation long since cleared up any confusion I had about Horn's report and thought the typo business was just a red herring.


  11. #506
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    Before I go back to looking at any of the pics, I always promise myself if I discover anything new I'll keep it to myself as few others seem to be able to see what I can pull out and I truly don't want to be a pest. But I continually break my word to myself as whatever it is I've seen is too compelling to keep silent...and here we are again.

    I opened one of the rotated pics and immediately saw a shadow over the 'head' I hadn't noticed in such detail before. I played with swapping colors to try and bring out more detail and I believe I can say with a good amount of confidence the 'head' is actually her foot. Since pics won't attach full size here any longer, click to enlarge, save and resize or zoom, I added arrows just below her toes, ghostly as the blur of them may be, you can clearly make out her toes and toe nails.

    53216BkFootNotHead.jpg

  12. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by geevee View Post
    Hey WM, really sorry for not having seen this post before now. I do agree what we're seeing is her left foot, turning towards the camera and moving towards (our) left and upwards and right, look at the curl to the left of the fold in the middle of the pant leg (1 circled in pic), that's her big toe with blood-covered toenail, the line is underneath her other toes. The lighter area in the center of "T's head" (2 in pic) is actually blur from her foot, I do not believe that is his head at all but really need to see the actual digital pic to pin down what it is. I think you're right about her direction facing the camera, I think the hair shadow on the floor-to-pant leg shows that (3 in pic). I am coming to believe the blood line is the neck slash but I really want to see the original pic, the one from the book (below and tilted to reflect the angle of the camera lying upside down on the shutter button) is better than what we had but still not good enough.

    I've been away for awhile. I don't remember that version of that photo. Its much clearer than I recall. Was that from the second trial? Did they go over the evidence again like this?

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    Hiya SS, long time no see. That photo is from JM's book (the digital version), it is much clearer than what we had to work with from the trial but still would love to get ahold of the original digitals.

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    Thanks, geevee. Were there any other better photos than what we had?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smelly Squirrel View Post
    Thanks, geevee. Were there any other better photos than what we had?
    Unfortunately no, in the book the final pic (5:33:32) wasn't even as clear as a few we were able to get from the trial videos (and those were very dark), but I figured out mostly what is in it (the light area near the right front are fingers, making the dark area to the left impossible to be T's back but could be his arm if one or more of the fingers belong to him). I'm still waiting to see if Beth Karas will decide those pics are important and attain and publish the originals, no word on that though.

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