CO - Citizens Not Complying w/LE Orders, Disarming LE, & Using Weapons against Them

"Husband-and-wife meth users disarmed a Colorado wildlife officer [Martinez] and a sheriff's deputy [Shock] then forced them to their knees along a desolate mountain highway...* police reports released Thursday show. The man had handcuffed the deputy and
held both officers at gunpoint with their own weapons....

"Damon aimed a handgun at Martinez and ordered him to keep his hands up as Hand pulled the officer's weapon from his holster, the reports state.

"Pointing Martinez's own gun at him, the couple then led him down the hill toward Moffat County Deputy Bhrent Shock.
Hand told investigators her husband pointed his gun at Shock's face and ordered him to the ground, where Damon
stripped him of his gun, radio and stun gun before handcuffing his right hand to his duty belt."Damon then pressed the gun into the back of the deputy's head.

"Martinez threw the keys to his vehicle toward Damon and told the pair they could take it and go." bbm sbm

http://centurylink.net/news/read/ca...ir_held_officers_at_gunpoint_before_deadl-ap/ date Mar 12, 2014

* "before the husband was killed in a struggle."
^ A relatively happy ending, if you're rooting for the good guys who managed to escape injury, not a pair of 40+ y/o meth-heads,
- already previously wanted in Wasatch County, Utah, on charges of burglary, theft and forgery.
- already previously wanted for using stolen credit card, checks, buying thou's of dollars of goods at Wal-Mart ... in Dec.
in Chaffee County, Colorado ... stealing credit cards, ski equipment, electronics & items from cars, then pawning them.
They were charged Thursday with attempted first-degree murder, kidnapping, aggravated robbery & disarming a peace officer.
JM2cts.
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Way to go, officers!!!

WTH, was this guy doing out and about?? Thanks Al for posting this.

A man attacked LEO who responded w less-than-lethal use of force, a stun gun which did not cause the desired result - momentary incapacitation.
Man pulled off stun gun wires and fled. Even after he struggled w multiple LEOs,
officers still did not use firearms to secure arrest.
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".... Officers received multiple calls about 5:40 p.m. concerning a white male wearing blue jeans and no shirt acting suspiciously.
When officers arrived, they learned that Ross had kicked in the door of a home .... located him a short distance away, near the intersection of Lamar and Whitworth streets. When the officer attempted to approach him, Ross doubled up his fists and charged the officer...
A stun gun was used on Ross and he pulled the wires off and fled on foot."

Fortunately other officers were available to assist.

"Officers pursued him and caught up with him in the middle of the road. They attempted to take him into custody and
Ross struggled with officers."

~ 5:40pm Fri. arrested & booked into jail in special, padded walls cell for violent offenders.
Charges: public intoxication, resisting arrest, two counts of assault of a public servant & attempting to take a weapon from an officer.

~ 11 minutes after placement in cell, an officer heard a noise and went to check on Ross, not moving and unresponsive.
Jailers and EMS were called, found Ross' faint pulse, said he appeared to be in cardiac arrest; transported to an area hospital.
EMTs got his heart beating normally but not breathing on his own.
~ 5 p.m. Sun., Ross died at hosp.
Waiting on medical examiner's & tox reports. The investigation is now being handled by Texas Rangers.

Sulphur Springs TX, Hopkins County.
http://www.kltv.com/story/28300898/texas-rangers-investigate-after-inmate-dies-in-custody date March 9, 2014

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ETA: Before using stun gun, did officer try other LTL use of force methods first? No link to pdf of LEO's rpt., so we don't know. Maybe. Maybe not.

In ordinary course of reading news & surfing today, I ran across another story of delayed compliance w LE's simple order.
Fortunately LE did not respond by shooting, as some ppl argue LE inevitably do.
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Mar 11, LE received report that a man w a rifle was on a grocery store roof in Idaho Falls, ID.

"... officers spent several minutes trying to get the boy to put down the weapon." Several LE agencies responded.
They say the boy acted evasively. A multiple-block area was cordoned off, and a SWAT team shut it down for about an hour.

Turned out to be "... a 16-year-old boy hunting pigeons with a scope-equipped pellet gun ..." who they eventually determined not to be a threat.No charges will be filed against him, per LE spokeswoman.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2015/03/12/boy-hunting-pigeons-on-roof-with-pellet-gun-causes-partial-shutdown-southeast/ Mar 12
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All that time and effort for to assemble SWAT team to protect the public from what appeared
to be an armed individual who refused to comply w simple command, apparently repeated over and over?!

Viewing scoped gun thru binoculars, could LE determine it was a pellet gun [a type of non-powder gun]? Maybe. Or not.

"... non-powder guns [including pellet guns] ... discharge projectiles, often at high speeds and with significant force ... are often designed to appear almost indistinguishable from actual firearms, and may be mistaken for firearms by law enforcement...[SUP]5[/SUP] " http://smartgunlaws.org/non-powder-guns-policy-summary/

Are pellet guns harmless? No. Less than lethal? No, per three sources below.
1. "Non-powder guns, including BB, air and pellet guns, are inherently dangerous weapons that can inflict potentially severe or lethal injuries." "Centers for Disease Control and Prevention .... Between 2001 and 2011, non-powder guns injured209,981 people nationwide...[SUP]2[/SUP] In 2011 alone, 16,451 injuries... [SUP]3[/SUP]^ from http://smartgunlaws.org/non-powder-guns-policy-summary/
2. "From July 1993 to July 2003, non-powder guns caused 40 deaths nationwide." bbm
"U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, CPSC Safety Alert: BB Guns Can Kill (Jan. 1, 2012), at http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/5089.pdf...Jennifer E. Keller et al., Air-Gun Injuries: Initial Evaluation and Resultant Morbidity, 70 Am. Surg. 484, 484 (June 2004). [↩]"
3. "Airguns may not fire with as much energy or have as much range as firearms, but they are still powerful and
may cause injury or even death." bbm ^ per http://www.crosman.com/get-hunting/why-hunt-with-an-airgun
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Asked/ordered by LE to put down a scoped gun, what 16 y/o on a business' rooftop in city limits
refuses to comply for several minutes?
[Sarc alert]
An Eagle Scout, passing time after helping cook & serve at homeless shelter but before church choir practice,
then milk and cookies at grandma's?

How do LEOs deal with this? IDK.

it doesnt seem like the kid was wielding the weapon and refusing to put the weapon down but instead that he was trying to hide and possibly flee.

"How do LEOs deal with this?"

sounds like they dealt with it just right, respond, set up a perimeter, try to communicate with the person... peaceful resolution.

im not sure what is unclear about the situation.

liljim said:

it doesnt seem like the kid was wielding the weapon and refusing to put the weapon down but instead that he was trying to hide and possibly flee.

"How do LEOs deal with this?"

sounds like they dealt with it just right, respond, set up a perimeter, try to communicate with the person... peaceful resolution.

im not sure what is unclear about the situation.

Click to expand...

This time it had a peaceful resolution. But it was pretty touch and go. The kid could have pointed and shot and been shot and killed himself. I am glad he FINALLY complied, but what took him so long? If he had dropped the weapon and laid down it would have been all over --no need for SWAT or evacuations or anything like that.

liljim said:

it doesnt seem like the kid was wielding the weapon and refusing to put the weapon down but instead that he was trying to hide and possibly flee.
"How do LEOs deal with this?"
sounds like they dealt with it just right, respond, set up a perimeter, try to communicate with the person... peaceful resolution.
im not sure what is unclear about the situation.

Click to expand...

bbm

Sorry, my question was vague. Thx for bringing to my attn.
.
I just cannot imagine being in LE's shoes and dealing w actions like this one.
Not that they are actually facing literal gunfire every shift, but they could be.
Scary and it must be mentally and emotionally wearing to deal with too.

Seems so simple - 'put the gun down.' Yet ppl do not comply, and the LEOs do not know why in a specific situation.
Like I said above, all that time and effort for to assemble SWAT team to protect the public from what appeared
to be an armed individual who refused to comply w simple command, apparently repeated over and over?!

Glad it was resolved without gunfire - by anyone.

Today,Mar 13, another man was "involved in apparent exchange of gunfire" w LE, this time in Los Angeles CA.
Any public safety issues, besides man firing at LE?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"He was wanted for suspicion of kidnapping and assault with a deadly weapon against his wife in Paramount on Sunday....
"....sheriff's officials said deputies were following, not chasing, the vehicle and did not deploy lights and sirens as
the suspect, at times driving on the wrong side of the street, wound his way on streets thick with vehicle and pedestrian traffic,
at one point narrowly missing a skateboarder....spike strips were used in an attempt to disable the SUV..." bbm

"The man stopped the white SUV on 43rd Street near Vermont Avenue about 5:25 p.m., got out and
pointed what appeared to be a silver-colored handgun at deputies when he was struck, according to reports from the scene.
He appeared to have fired shots before being hit." bbm

"...deputies ... who had been following his SUV and were then held at bay for nearly 90 minutes when the wounded man refused to surrender.

"... residents were evacuated from nearby homes.... ... about 6:45 p.m...he ... was taken into custody."

Per LA Co. Sheriff's office, "The man was being treated at the scene...[but] an update on his condition was not immediately available." http://www.myfoxla.com/story/28492310/standoff-continues-after-pursuit-in-south-la Mar 13

Also videos, each ~1 min or so, from 3-4 diff LA-area TV stations at
http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/l-a-police-chase-results-in-live-televised-gunfight-1691406361
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Despite the man's actions endangering the public, fortunately no person - or deputy - was injured.
How many members of the public were endangered by his actions? Ppl on streets & highways, a skateboarder, ppl in nearby homes?
How many deputies? How many LE vehicles were used, a helicopter and how many cars? How many EMTs & ambulances?

If 70 y/o great-grandfather had heart attack, was his ambulance was delayed, because it was on scene for shootout w LE ?
If an infant was pulled from bathtub in potential drowning, did ambulance arrive promptly to save her? Or was it delayed?
If a woman delivered a baby at home, instead of hosp, did she or baby make it to OR for emergency surgery? Or did she or baby die?
W motor vehicle accidents occurring, were LEOs available to direct traffic away from crash sites? Or did more cars pile up?
Etc., etc., etc.
Fact that no LEOs were injured or died by this man's gunfire, does not mean nobody was injured or died
because of this man's actions.
JM2cts.

al66pine said:

bbm

Sorry, my question was vague. Thx for bringing to my attn.
.
I just cannot imagine being in LE's shoes and dealing w actions like this one.
Not that they are actually facing literal gunfire every shift, but they could be.
Scary and it must be mentally and emotionally wearing to deal with too.

Seems so simple - 'put the gun down.' Yet ppl do not comply, and the LEOs do not know why in a specific situation.
Like I said above, all that time and effort for to assemble SWAT team to protect the public from what appeared
to be an armed individual who refused to comply w simple command, apparently repeated over and over?!

Glad it was resolved without gunfire - by anyone.

Click to expand...

sure i dont disagree with any of that, i was just talking about that specific case where it doesnt appear that the kid "refused to put the gun down" or pointed it at anyone etc, it sounds like he just tried to hide.

liljim said:

.... talking about that specific case where it doesnt appear that the kid "refused to put the gun down" or
pointed it at anyone etc, it sounds like he just tried to hide.

Click to expand...

sbm

Thx for responding and sharing your thoughts.
As you say, the 16 y/o may not have pointed gun at anyone. Agreed. If LE observed that, imo, likely story w/h/stated that.

"The Idaho Falls Police Department says officers spent several minutes tryingto get the boy to put down the weapon.Police say the boy acted evasively so they cordoned off a multiple-block area and called in a SWAT team." bbm

My interp of above:
How much time does it take -
- for one LEO to say put the gun down - 2 sec? 5 sec? 10 sec?
- to put gun down - 2 sec? 5 sec? 10 sec?
- for one LEO to repeat 'put the gun down' - 2 sec? 5 sec? 10 sec?
- to wait for gun holder to respond? Depends on how long LE waits.
Rinse and repeat.
Article does not say officer said put gun down several times; article says it took several minutes.

If one LEO said just once 'put the gun down' and he complied,
or
if one LEO said three, five or ten times 'put the gun down' and he complied,
or
if two, three, or five LEOs each said five or ten times 'put the gun down' and he complied in one min, or two min.,
then officers (plural) would not have spent several minutes (plural) trying to get him to put the gun down.

W his failure to put gun down, can LE assume no threat? They can. Can LE safely rely on that? No, imo, and apparently in their opn too.
My thought: "acting evasively" is difficult to interp. Did roof have places he could hide? Maybe. Hence SWAT team.

"Police eventually determined the teenager wasn't a threat." bbm
My interp: after he put gun down, and LE secured it and cuffed him, he did not act violent, perhaps voiced compliance.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...pellet-gun-causes-partial-shutdown-southeast/ Mar 12

Glad it was resolved without gunfire, but imo, these events collectively take emotional toll on LEOs.

liljim, again, thanks for another view on that short article, undoubtedly lots more in PD incident report.

Mar 13, Fri 9:30pm, a pizza delivery man delivered to mobile home where a man paid only some of $ due. When driver asked the rest of the money, the man closed door. When driver went toward car, pizza-orderer w gun followed, firing shots at him, hitting him in the chest. Shooter got into delivery vehicle, drove away. Residents called police, gave vehicle description.

Then LE entered the picture.
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"....Police chased the man northbound on Interstate 55... Meinberg said during the pursuit the man threw homemade dynamite sticks at them...
Police used spike strips to disable the vehicle near Page Boulevard.... When police went to arrest the man in his car he was attempting to light an explosive. Police found an explosive in his pocket and a 9mm handgun."

The man had a backpack full of homemade explosives. While LE searched the highway for objects he had thrown at officers, a section of Interstate 55 was temporarily closed.

"Meinberg said the St. Louis County Police bomb and arson squad found numerous materials to make explosives throughout the man's home.
He said at least 10 homes in the area were evacuated while police investigated."

"The man was in custody Saturday facing attempted murder charges." ^bbm sbm
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/jefferson-county-pizza-delivery-man-shot-twice-by-customer-who/article_fdc6867f-df74-528e-8d45-78615e005da8.html. Mar 14
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.
Dynamite thrown at them? Walking along dark interstate highway to lay out spike strips? Searching backpack & cars, encountering explosives?
Just another day for LE on duty?

Fortunately, no explosions in the pursuit or in home and no one got injured (aside from delivery driver, before LE were summoned).

* Homemade dynamite sticks: stability, safety, standardization, quality control? Hazarding a guess there would be none. JM2cts.

Another assault on an LEO, one from earlier this week in St. Louis County MO. in municipality of Pinelawn. St Louis County PD is handling investigation of shooting.
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"....The off-duty officer was working a second job providing security at Skate King ... in Pine Lawn about 7 p.m. Sunday,
according to St. Louis County Police, the agency that handled the investigation.
The off-duty officer heard multiple gunshots from across the street and left his job at Skate King, walking in the direction of the gunshots."
"... he heard more gunshots and saw a vehicle fleeing. The officer saw a window in the fleeing car was shot out and saw several people were in the car, according to a police statement.
"The officer heard a woman screaming and continued toward the noise. He then encountered Young, who he recognized ...

"When the officer identified himself as a law enforcement agent, Young raised a silver handgun at the officer...[per] police account.
Police say the off-duty officer fired two shots, both of which missed hitting Young. Young then fled in a gray Ford Taurus.
Officers found shell casings from a 9-millimeter handgun along with two casings from the officer's gun."
.
Young was arrested & charged Fri. w 2nd degree assault on LEO & armed crim action and is held in lieu of $100,000 bail.
.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_9e150122-04da-5fb1-94b3-52e902ed6568.html Fri Mar 13 bbm sbm
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No injury to Young. Fortunately no injury to LEO.

(~Mar4) A caller phoned 911 about shots fired inside a home, which had summoned LE previously w calls involving alcohol.
"The officers talked to the caller at the home in the ... received a description of the suspect and began a search for the suspect."

Seven LEOs searched for the gunman. " The officers were immediately fired upon, and as they ran for cover,
Green was shot in the back of the head, according to Channel 2 Action News." He was 48 y/o detective, 22 yrs on force.
"A second officer was also hit, but the bullet struck his duty belt area, shattering his police radio but not wounding him..." ~1:00am.
"Other officers returned fire, wounding the suspect Menghesha.
Menghesha [32 y/o] was also taken to Grady Memorial Hospital, and was alert and conscious." bbm Crime scene spanned ~3 blocks.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/fulton-police-officer-shot-and-killed-near-fairbur/nkNRr/ Mar 4
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I have not googled or done any searches for assaults on LEOs, just picked them up in reading news online in 2 days.
Ran across Det. Green in w/s thread. Imagine I'd get a ton of results if I actually ran search.
And these are only a handful of incidents actually making MSM, excluding LEO injuries & deaths that are not 'newsworthy.'