Brain Dead & Comatose = synonyms per news w/s. Preg. Lisa Avila, 37, Orange Co, CA

Per Mar 20 headline, she is "comatose" but in article, per hosp., she is "brain dead."
Was creator of this "Comatose" headline an editor who did not read article stating "brain dead"?
Or did editor think two terms are synonyms? Notwithstanding quibbles w losangeles.cbslocal.com editing, does this story look familiar?


Mar 20 Headline: "Family Of Comatose Woman Gets Reprieve From Hospital Decision To Remove Life Support"

"The family of an Orange County woman in a coma at Anaheim Regional Medical Center was given a reprieve Friday.
Lisa Avila, 37, and the mother of seven, was due to be removed from life support against her family’s wishes at 4 p.m.
The hospital said Avila is brain dead. Her family insists she is alive and does not want to give up." bbm ubm
"The family has filed a lawsuit alleging that Avila was misdiagnosed and not properly treated for a tubal pregnancy and that the staff is to blame for her comatose condition."
"Avila’s husband has pleaded with the hospital for more time to move his wife to a long-term care facility. Gile reports they told him he has until noon Tuesday.
"...hospital for a comment,...its thoughts and prayers are with Lisa Avila’s family and due to privacy reasons, it can’t disclose much more." bbm
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015...rom-hospital-decision-to-remove-life-support/


From Feb 17 article, she was in a coma, ~5 weeks earlier:
"A beloved wife and mother of seven is clinging to life Tuesday night after a medical emergency put her in a coma.
Lisa Avila, 36, is on life support in the intensive-care unit of Anaheim Regional Medical Center.
The family believes the hospital’s lack of proper care has nearly killed her.
Avila, who’s currently pregnant, was taken to the emergency room by her husband after she started experiencing abdominal pain."
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015...c-hospital-after-mother-of-7-falls-into-coma/


Sad, sad, sad for all involved.

This case is bothering me as much as the other Ca case. The family wants her to be alive so badly because she has 7 kids. I hope they aren't telling the kids mom is asleep because that would be so cruel.

If she has been declared brain dead, they are going to have a hard time finding a facility to take her.

I suspect the reporter doesn't understand the difference between coma and brain dead and was too lazy to even clarify.

Whether or not there was negligence in the diagnosis which led to her current condition, if she is brain dead, it doesn't make her any less dead. Those are two separate issues.

FYI, I came across ^ article in http://medicalfutility.blogspot.com/2015/03/hospital-agrees-to-4-more-days-of.html

This ^ blog is written by Thaddeus Mason Pope, J.D., Ph.D.
a law professor https://www.blogger.com/profile/03559981121040578536
at Hamline University Health Law Institute and Albany Medical College
His gen. w/s: http://thaddeuspope.com/ has links to many resources.

MEDICAL FUTILITY CASES:
Court filings: http://thaddeuspope.com/futilitycases.html (not inc. Lisa Avila filings yet; inc. Jahi McMath & many more)
Statutes:http://thaddeuspope.com/futilitystatutes.html
Med Futility Policies, samples by prof. assoc.s, by hospitals: http://thaddeuspope.com/futilitypolicies.html

Brain Death, Determination by Neurological Criteria: http://thaddeuspope.com/braindeath.html
1. DDNC Statutes, 2. Accommodation Laws, 3. Major Reports, 4. Court Cases, 5. Hospital Policies

much more at these ^ sites.

Right, I'm not sure if there is a reason why she wasn't diagnosed with the etopic pregnancy, other than they are hard to diagnose sometimes.

But she is dead. And the first part doesn't cancel out the second part.

I saw things online that said, "the hospital got her into this, now they have to get her out of this and well"

I mean, wow, yeah,sure that is what everyone *wants* and it demonstrates the severity of the denial of her brain death, but that doesn't mean anything. It's terrible, but that is the only way it can be. Death is final. You don't get a re-do or a renegotiation of how death will happen. It already happened. She is dead.

Hiandmighty said:

Right, I'm not sure if there is a reason why she wasn't diagnosed with the etopic pregnancy, other than they are hard to diagnose sometimes.
But she is dead. And the first part doesn't cancel out the second part.
I saw things online that said, "the hospital got her into this, now they have to get her out of this and well"
I mean, wow, yeah,sure that is what everyone *wants* and it demonstrates the severity of the denial of her brain death, but that doesn't mean anything. It's terrible, but that is the only way it can be. Death is final. You don't get a re-do or a renegotiation of how death will happen. It already happened. She is dead.

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Hiandmighty
Maybe you're interp'ing my posts as saying MsAvila is 'not really dead' or equiv, but that is not my line of thinking at all.
Not intending to disparage religious or personal beliefs of others, but accepting brain dead as dead in every sense, including legal.
Just linking more informative sources than MSM on the subject.

Oh, sorry! I was replying to nrdsb4.

I agree with you, alpine.

She is supposed to be removed from the ventilator at noon tomorrow. There have been no updates from the family and I don't know what to make of that. They aren't leading the battle cry like they did last week when the hospital was to turn off life support on Friday.

I wonder if that means anything is up? Dolan perhaps?

The common thread in these cases sometimes, I think, can be gross negligence or extremely bad bedside manner or treatment of the patient or their family. In this case, the pregnant woman went to the ER and they told her nothing was wrong and gave her morphine, allegedly. She and he husband kept insisting something was wrong and wouldn't leave but the staff said she just needed a prescription and would be fine. Her husband finally said he would take her to another ER. They smugly told the couple that since all the hospital computers were linked, no one would help them. They went to the car and drove to the pharmacy. Husband went in to get the meds, came out and found she was no longer breathing.

I feel we jump all over these families very quickly and politicize these issues without trying to stand in their shoes. This isn't about "I'm right about brain death and you people are delusional and need to immediately accept reality do what I think is right". It's about unendurable tragedies that likely could've been avoided, happening to quite young people. It is so unendurable that the families cannot accept what's happened. It's too shocking. I get that.

I want to know why we're not talking about how this poor woman and her husband were treated at the hospital. Why is it okay for hospital staff to be smug and dismissive of someone who is pregnant and in pain? Why didn't the ultrasound show an ectopic pregnancy? Or did it? Who performed the ultrasound? Who interpreted it? Did she have a pelvic exam? What the heck happened?

She basically bled to death internally and that should not have happened. A 12 week pregnant woman doesn't experience pain so bad she needs morphine, for no reason. This is unconscionable.

I'm sorry but I simply can't dismiss the feelings of the family so quickly and make this about how stupid and evil they are for not immediately accepting the facts and letting their loved one go.

This is another horrible case and if people jump all over this family and try to force them to "face facts", they are going to dig in their heels and become even more defensive.

When a medical facility botches someone's case that badly, how is the family of the loved one supposed to trust them when they say there is no hope?

I agree, something went horribly wrong in the ER. Did they even do an ultrasound? Did this couple have no insurance so the staff just did as little as possible? Or did they get an inexperienced new doctor?

Being I haven't read the article yet, was there a language barrier? This is no reason to mistreat a patient!

They did an ultrasound. For whatever the reason they apparently didn't figure out it was an ectopic pregnancy.

They are still two different issues: it's possible that the hospital was grossly negligent in their treatment of this woman. It's possible that had they correctly diagnosed her symptoms, she would be alive today. That is TOTALLY separate from the issue at hand: what is the right thing to do with a woman who is brain dead. Negligence can be addressed with a lawsuit. It doesn't have much of anything to do with what should now be done with the person/body who remains after the fact.

nrdsb4 said:

They are still two different issues: it's possible that the hospital was grossly negligent in their treatment of this woman. It's possible that had they correctly diagnosed her symptoms, she would be alive today. That is TOTALLY separate from the issue at hand: what is the right thing to do with a woman who is brain dead. Negligence can be addressed with a lawsuit. It doesn't have much of anything to do with what should now be done with the person/body who remains after the fact.

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But you're choosing the issue at hand. I say there is another issue at play. WTH happened here? You want to say that a month or so after a pregnant woman was kicked out of the hospital and smugly told no other ER would treat her differently, her family should know what the right thing to do would be. I say that the real issue is, how could this have happened?

The reason her family believes she is comatose rather than brain dead is likely because of how the hospital treated her to begin with. I am asking for some understanding and compassion here. How a hospital treats its patients is likely directly correlated to how they are going to react in situations like this. IMO.

thread in these cases sometimes, I think, can be gross negligence or extremely bad bedside manner or treatment of the patient or their family. In this case, the pregnant woman went to the ER and they told her nothing was wrong and gave her morphine, allegedly. She and he husband kept insisting something was wrong and wouldn't leave but the staff said she just needed a prescription and would be fine. Her husband finally said he would take her to another ER. They smugly told the couple that since all the hospital computers were linked, no one would help thd drove to the pharmacy. Husband went in to get the meds, came out and found she was no longer breathing. ...[/QUOTE] sbm bbm

re^bbm
Gitana1
Asking you (or anyone), as you are local-ish and may have seen more news from other sources.
Do you recall where your source on this? If no time, no worries.
I

gitana1 said:

I'm sorry but I simply can't dismiss the feelings of the family so quickly and make this about how stupid and evil they are for not immediately accepting the facts and letting their loved one go.

This is another horrible case and if people jump all over this family and try to force them to "face facts", they are going to dig in their heels and become even more defensive.

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WHO has stated that the family are "stupid and evil"? Did you just make that up?

gitana1 said:

But you're choosing the issue at hand. I say there is another issue at play. WTH happened here? You want to say that a month or so after a pregnant woman was kicked out of the hospital and smugly told no other ER would treat her differently, her family should know what the right thing to do would be. I say that the real issue is, how could this have happened?

The reason her family believes she is comatose rather than brain dead is likely because of how the hospital treated her to begin with. I am asking for some understanding and compassion here. How a hospital treats its patients is likely directly correlated to how they are going to react in situations like this. IMO.

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How would I, a poster on an internet board, be able to "choose the issue at hand?" There are a couple of different things going on at the same time, it is what it is and it is not a choice to focus on only one issue and let the other issue slide. Of course the family wants to know what happened and why. Of course they deserve compassion and understanding. Who said otherwise? If the only way to show compassion and understanding is to keep dead people on life support, we'd have a big problem in our health care system.

What happens in the event of brain death is legally not the family's decision to make. Families don't get to decide what happens to a brain dead individual like they do if their loved one is simply comatose or in PVS. People are only diagnosed as brain dead once very specific criteria have been met. This is a process which has very strict protocols. As an attorney, you know that there is no legal mandate for a medical center to continue to provide artificial support to brain dead individuals. In fact, the law is clearly on the side of withdrawal of life support in these cases. NJ is apparently the only exception to that, and in only limited circumstances. The huge majority of times, the hospital gives the family a given amount of time to gather and come to terms with the tragedy, and whether the family agrees or not, whether or not the family "digs in its heels," the support is withdrawn on the given date and time. People who go to court to protest usually lose. That is what made the Jahi McMath situation so notable, that the judge did not rule that the hospital could withdraw support. That is very very unusual.

Brain dead individuals are taken off life support with or without the permission from family members on a regular basis in hospitals all over the country. The law provides for this and doesn't make exceptions simply because there is a suggestion that the brain death is the result of a misdiagnosis. If family members were given a say in this, we'd have legally dead individuals housed in creepy brain dead units all over the place, because this is not something that is easy for families to do. Because families often don't understand the difference between brain death and coma, because they are inundated with tales of miracle wakenings by others who don't understand the difference, they often refuse to believe that there is a point of no return when all brain function ceases. The law takes it out of the family's hands in the event of brain death.

OF COURSE the family will want to know all the reasons for what happened to their loved one, and I have no doubt they will sue to obtain all the discovery to which they are entitled. If this occurred due to negligence, they will be entitled to compensation.

All of this is moot if the patient is not brain dead, and it's not clear from the articles if that is actually her official diagnosis. If she is not, it is entirely up to the family whether or not to withdraw support. If the patient has no living will and the family has no idea of how she would want this to be handled, then they are entitled to make those decisions for her and long term care is one of the options they would be entitled to choose.

I agree that obviously something happened in the ER. I have read somewhere she had a US and they told her the pregnancy was normal. Maybe she had fraternal twins and one implanted in a tube? Something strange here. Maybe not the hospital's fault too. It could be some anamoly.

(Also with fraternal twins one twin can be "younger" by up to 5-6 days depending on when the second egg was spit out from the ovary)

The hospital notice of brain death is under-whelming. It has some filled in blanks and a hand writren note about when the ventilator will be turned off.

I think I read 5 specialists have determined her brain dead, and the family was looking to bring in their own specialist.

Comments online are a little vicious that I have seen, but the family did post a video of them twisting her nipples and they say the resulting reflexes are proof she isn't dead. I think several people were very outraged by that.

I think that hospital is a small, regional hospital that is known for being understaffed, underfunded and with staff that are overworked.

Abdominal pain in a woman of childbearing age should be worked up to include an ectopic pregnancy.

I assume (pending more information) that she got an intern or a nurse (no offense to nurses) or an u/s tech that messed up? Its hard to say. There are also conflicting reports that she bled internally (rupture) right after they left and I have also seen the next day. So the timeline isn't set.

I agree the family is shell shocked at what happened and they don't like that she was brought back to the same hospital that missed the ectopic pregnancy. The problem then went into they wanted her transferred but no facility would take her because she had a declaration of death.

I don't know where they stand. If their silence indicates they have accepted her diagnosis and will remove her from the vent or if they are furiously working the phones trying to make something happen that will prevent it.

Hiandmighty said:

Comments online are a little vicious that I have seen, but the family did post a video of them twisting her nipples and they say the resulting reflexes are proof she isn't dead. I think several people were very outraged by that.

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Who was the first family member to think "let's twist her nipples". I can't even imagine that crossing my mind, but then again, I've never stood at the bedside of someone who is brain dead, so I can't say what someone might think to try.

gitana1 said:

I want to know why we're not talking about how this poor woman and her husband were treated at the hospital. Why is it okay for hospital staff to be smug and dismissive of someone who is pregnant and in pain? Why didn't the ultrasound show an ectopic pregnancy? Or did it? Who performed the ultrasound? Who interpreted it? Did she have a pelvic exam? What the heck happened?

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JMO mostly because we just don't know. Anything we could offer would be unfounded speculation really. It's hard to discuss those questions in rational manner when the medical records aren't public, the hospital is bound by HIPPA and there's just the family version out there. Obviously something went very radically wrong but it's anybody's guess who's to blame. The whole sending a woman in early pregnancy home with morphine thing does sound very strange, if that's what happened but it's kind of difficult for me to go out in a rage over the smugness of hospital staff when I know that patients and families sometimes present a very distorted version of what happened in an appointment situation and I know for a fact that no one said what the family is alleging they said. I'm not saying they're lying, it's all very true to them, but sometimes the shock makes it hard to take information in and the fear and the upset, sad state of mind distort the memories of people in a crisis. So I'd really love to hear the hospital side before offering an opinion on how smug and dismissive they were being and read the medical record.