Why didn't John Ramsey take the cord off of JonBenet's neck ?

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Shanny

Shanny

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This bugs me so much, John Ramseys seem to think that it is so important for the world to know that he removed the tape from his daughter's mouth:

Lou Smit: "Talk about the tape."

John Ramsey: "There was a piece of a fairly wide black tape (over her mouth), which I immediately took off. Her lips were blue."

Lou Smit: "...What did you do with the tape?"

John Ramsey: "I think I took it off with my right hand and just droped it..."

Lou Smit: "What else do you remember right at that time?"

John Ramsey: "I just remember just talking and saying, 'Come on baby.' And I tried to untie her arms. They were tied up behind her head...."

Lou Smit: "Were they tied tight?"

John Ramsey: "Yeah, very tight...her skin was swollen around. And they were not easy to get off. I tried to untie them quickly and I just picked her up, carried her upstiars. I was screaming. In fact, I couldn't even scream.
I brought her upstairs into the living room and laid her there, at one point, tried to untie the knot further, and Linda Arndt stopped me from doing it...."

If John removed the tape from her mouth, why didn't he take the cord off of JonBenet's neck ?
Why would he try to untie JonBenet's wrist when he could see that that the cord was around her neck ? If John was trying to save her or trying to see if she was alive, the first thing he should have did was remove the cord from her neck.
 
He did not see the cord around her neck.

John Ramsey: "Yeah, very tight...her skin was swollen around. And they were not easy to get off. I tried to untie them quickly
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More proof that John is a pathological liar...the cord around her wrists was not tight and there was no swelling of her skin. There were no marks on her wrists or arms from the cords either...if they were so tight that they caused swelling there would have been marks, just like the ones around her neck.
 
Seeker said:
He did not see the cord around her neck.



More proof that John is a pathological liar...the cord around her wrists was not tight and there was no swelling of her skin. There were no marks on her wrists or arms from the cords either...if they were so tight that they caused swelling there would have been marks, just like the ones around her neck.
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You prove nothing. How would you know the cord was not tight at that time or anything about the swelling of her skin?
 
Zman and Seeker,

You may both be right. JonBenet may have been strung up and, when found by John, cut down (in accordance with John Walsh's off-the-cuff public comment).

The cords on JonBenet's wrists, according to the autopsy, were LIGATURES, and she could have been strung up by the wrists, but placed in a sitting position on the floor. Thus, if the weight of JonBenet's upper torso was pulling on the ligature the ligature would be tight and hard to untie, but if the body was lifted or the cord cut, and the weight taken off the ligature, the ligature would loosen up and could be easily removed.

John Ramsey's comment about trying to keep JonBenet's head up while untying the "knot" on her one wrist, lends credence to a strung up scenario of some kind.

BlueCrab
 
Didn't Detective Linda Arndt say something to the affect of 'the first thing that she'd seen when John carried JonBenet's body upstairs was the cord wrapped around her neck with the broken paint brush swinging back and forth?'






~*~*Happy Bealted Birthday JonBenet Ramsey~*~* :HappyBday
 
There were no marks from the cord on JonBenet's wrists....so they were not wrapped tightly. That is one big fat lie John told. Like it or not, the cords were tied loosely around her wrists that the Coroner just slipped them off.

The one comment John also made was that he was "trying to hold JonBenet's head". What does that mean? Does that mean she was hanging or what?
 
I noticed this the first time I looked at JonBenets' autopsy photos ... it looks to me that there is another set of ligature marks around her neck that is raised toward the back of her neck.There is nothing mentioned of this in the autopy report,so I dismissed it,being I'm not an expert,thinking those marks must be something else.

So I just reviewed the photo again,although I'm just a novice,I still see a definite second ligature mark that is raised toward the back of her neck.

Can anyone else see this? It looks obvious to me.
 
I just looked again at the autopsy photos myself, and i noticed something i hadnt taken into consideration before.

If you look at the photo of the cord on JBRs neck (the pic where you can see her mouth also) i noticed that the cord is rather high on her neck. If you feel your own neck to see where the cord would be on you, its really high. But is the agurment that if she was hung/strung up, wouldnt it be by her wrists cords not her neck cords. I need clarifcation. BC i hadnt heard of JR saying he had to lift JBRs head up to untie to cords..is that in a deposition?
 
Charlie said:
BC i hadnt heard of JR saying he had to lift JBRs head up to untie to cords..is that in a deposition?
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Charlie,

It's from the '98 interviews. John said he had just discovered JonBenet in the wine cellar wrapped in a blanket papoose style. The first thing he did was rip the black duct tape off her mouth, and he then tried to untie her arms.

JOHN RAMSEY: "And I tried to untie her arms; they were tied up behind her head."

LOU SMIT: "Were they tied tight?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Yeah, very tight."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MIKE KANE: "Do you remember, was her head exposed? Were her feet exposed?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Possibly."

MIKE KANE: "But not the rest of her?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "I mean, yeah. I think her feet were exposed. But her head was. Her head was tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head."

MIKE KANE: "I'm not really clear; you said they were tied tight. But were her hands tied closely together or were they wide apart?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "No, it was like that."

MIKE KANE: "They were crossed like that."

JOHN RAMSEY: "I remember, yeah, her hands were close together."

MIKE KANE: "And you tried to untie one of them. Were you successful?"

JOHN RAMSEY: "Partly. I mean, I sort of started to get them untied, but I guess I was starting to realize that that wouldn't do any good."

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
JOHN RAMSEY: "I mean, yeah. I think her feet were exposed. But her head was. Her head was tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head."
BlueCrab
Click to expand...

BlueCrab said:
John Ramsey's comment about trying to keep JonBenet's head up while untying the "knot" on her one wrist, lends credence to a strung up scenario of some kind.
BlueCrab
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BC dont mean to be nit-picky, but John said he was trying to hold her head, not hold it up. There is a difference if we say JBR was lying on the Celler floor and her head was titlted to the side, perhaps john was trying to hold her head straight and JBs head kept flopping back to the titled position...
 
Shanny said:
This bugs me so much, John Ramseys seem to think that it is so important for the world to know that he removed the tape from his daughter's mouth:

Lou Smit: "Talk about the tape."

John Ramsey: "There was a piece of a fairly wide black tape (over her mouth), which I immediately took off. Her lips were blue."

Lou Smit: "...What did you do with the tape?"

John Ramsey: "I think I took it off with my right hand and just droped it..."

Lou Smit: "What else do you remember right at that time?"

John Ramsey: "I just remember just talking and saying, 'Come on baby.' And I tried to untie her arms. They were tied up behind her head...."

Lou Smit: "Were they tied tight?"

John Ramsey: "Yeah, very tight...her skin was swollen around. And they were not easy to get off. I tried to untie them quickly and I just picked her up, carried her upstiars. I was screaming. In fact, I couldn't even scream.
I brought her upstairs into the living room and laid her there, at one point, tried to untie the knot further, and Linda Arndt stopped me from doing it...."

If John removed the tape from her mouth, why didn't he take the cord off of JonBenet's neck ?
Why would he try to untie JonBenet's wrist when he could see that that the cord was around her neck ? If John was trying to save her or trying to see if she was alive, the first thing he should have did was remove the cord from her neck.
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Even so what does that prove?
 
Charlie said:
BC dont mean to be nit-picky, but John said he was trying to hold her head, not hold it up. There is a difference if we say JBR was lying on the Celler floor and her head was titlted to the side, perhaps john was trying to hold her head straight and JBs head kept flopping back to the titled position...
Click to expand...


Charlie,

JonBenet was in full rigor when found at 1:05 PM, so her head was unable to flop from the tilted position and back again. Her entire body was rigid.

IMO John had to have been holding her head to lessen the weight and take the strain off the ligature on her wrists. A ligature is unable to be untied so long as a weighted object is trying to pull the slip knot tighter. There seems to be no other reason to be holding her head while trying to untie the ligature on her wrists.

John doesn't say so, but I think he cut JonBenet down by cutting the cord, and this may have occurred much earlier that morning -- like around 3 or 4 AM., and prior to rigor setting in. John's mention of holding the head could have been just another slip of the tongue as he and Patsy continue to confuse the timelines of their fabricated stories.

Please remember that the Ramsey's recollection of events that morning were based on a flat-out lie in regard to the whereabouts of Burke during the 911 call. Therefore, anything else they say about what happened that morning cannot be considered credible unless you are prepared to take a leap of faith.

BlueCrab
 
If you entertain a conspiracy and staging with regard to JonBenet's death, then she may have been tied up using the cord to facilitate a sexual assault.

Her hands may have been above her head because she was tethered with her arms outstretched upon a bed.

In another thread, BlueCrab has alluded to the possibility of a bed missing from Burke's room ?


If John discovered her, he may have decided to untie her, using the crime scene elements to stage her death to appear as a bedtime abduction and sexual assault.

The markings on her neck needed to be explained away, so John would not have removed the cord from JonBenet's neck, since it was integral to the staging.
 
For some reason whenever Patsy was being interviewed she forgot how to use complete sentences. Her words and thoughts always jumping around all over the place.That's where I believe the LE could have gotten a little tougher,they should have insisted that she thought things out a little,to get a more definitive answer.

Since they didn't,I can only see her answers as evasive,because it happened so often.The question you have to ask yourself is .... why? And that my friends, is the $118,000 question.
 
UKGuy said:
Her hands may have been above her head because she was tethered with her arms outstretched upon a bed.
Click to expand...


Good point UKGuy. This theory, of course, would put the crime in the sexual monster category. In bonding scenes the girl is often on her back spread eagle on a bed with her hands tethered to the bedposts at the head of the bed and her ankles tethered to the bedposts at the foot of the bed. The helpless position of the girl would allow the rapist to do whatever pleases him.

However, in JonBenet's case the hands were bound together at the wrists and there was apparently no tethering at the ankles, which would have allowed her almost free reign to twist and turn to avoid the rapist's sexual advances.

Thus, I'm more of the opinion that JonBenet's head and upper torso could have been propped up against the headboard by tethering the bound arms to the headboard or an overhead object while the rest of the body, from the waist down, remained horizontal on the bed. It would have been a classic position for erotic asphyxiation to have taken place which, IMO, did occur in this case. The bed being used would have been in one of the second floor bedrooms.

In this theory, after accidentally asphyxiating JonBenet, or torturing her with a stun gun and purposely asphyxiating her, the perp would have likely obscenely posed the dead body, probably with the stick tied on the end of the 17" long cord from the neck ligature inserted into the vagina. This would replicate what terrorists are expected to do. John Ramsey, upon discovering the grotesque scene very early in the morning, would have cut her down immediately, altered the crime scene, relocated the body to the basement, and established a plan to coverup what really happened.

BlueCrab
 
Excuse me please, I am very tired and probably should not post til morning, when I am awake.

BUT, IF JR was busily trying to untie her wrists, just when did he holler, did he untie and THEN holler that he found her (er whutever er whenever he made a noise about finding her) I recall that he carried her up the stairs after finding her holding her with HIS arms extended in front of him, and her body away from him.

IF IF he had hollered when he saw the tape on her mouth and removed it, and BEFORE he endeavored to untie her wrists, most likely more folks would have met him in the basement instead of seeing him coming up the stairs with JonBenets body. Chicken and egg stuff going on here.

Another 'why didn't JR question, why didn't he offer to take a lie detector test, when the NE offerred him one million dollars to do so. IF HE had and passed it, he just might have won the political position in Michigan, AND, AND PR and JR, just might be living a happier life by now, and would have been doing so for the past 8.5 years as well. PLUS they would not have had to sue everyone in the telephone book about slandering BDI theorists and media reports of the same inferences.


.


.
 
Camper said:
Another 'why didn't JR question, why didn't he offer to take a lie detector test, when the NE offerred him one million dollars to do so. IF HE had and passed it, he just might have won the political position in Michigan, AND, AND PR and JR, just might be living a happier life by now, and would have been doing so for the past 8.5 years as well. PLUS they would not have had to sue everyone in the telephone book about slandering BDI theorists and media reports of the same inferences.
Click to expand...



Camper,

Yep, a healthy dose of the truth beginning on day one would have elicited a ton of empathy and understanding from the public. People are eager to forgive, if only given half a chance. But the Ramseys chose to give the public a ton of condescending lies and a coverup, and are rightfully paying the price for it.
 
My problem with the scenario, is him taking her upstairs to present to the waiting crowd. Why didn't they go to him? It seemed like "look what I found. How could I be guilty?"

ETA...Why would he do that?
 
BlueCrab, consider these thoughts

1. 'They' did not agree to the NE offer, to PROVE non involvement.

2. 'They' sued to Protest and PROVE ?, that BDNDI.

SO my conclusive thoughts are that 1. 'They' knew who did IT, and could not pass the test and 2. Burke did not do IT.

So what EXACTLY do/did 'They' know, and to quote the Nixon battle, WHEN did 'They' know it?

-------------------->>


SAGsun said:
My problem with the scenario, is him taking her upstairs to present to the waiting crowd. Why didn't they go to him? It seemed like "look what I found. How could I be guilty?"

ETA...Why would he do that?
Click to expand...

You bring up further wonderment, PERHAPS he just went to where he knew SHE was and PICKED her up and CAME directly up the stairs. How out of sight could she have been IF IF FW missed seeing her, WE donut know precisely WHERE JR found her, ONLY what JR said, am I right?

I suspect that odd factors present themselves upon autopsies every now and then. Cuz when we present thoughts about what we 'perceive' as truth, such as the pooled blood etc. WE cannot accept that 'she' MAY have been elsewhere - when FW LOOKED at the SPOT where she wasn't but WAS according to JR.



.
 
SAGsun said:
My problem with the scenario, is him taking her upstairs to present to the waiting crowd.

Why would he do that?
Click to expand...


SAGsun,

It's just my opinion, of course, but I think John's carrying the body upstairs was a part of the plan to contaminate the crime scene as much as possible. He knew JonBenet was dead because she was in full rigor and putrefying (bad odor) and he carried her upstairs like a board. John and Patsy flinging themselves on the body, and inviting civilians over to further contaminate the crime scene, and the lie about the whereabouts of Burke during the 911 call, seemed to be a plan being executed by the Ramseys.
 
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