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  1. #1051
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    JMO
    Just wanted to add my opinion on their planning or lack thereof. And want to address it backwards. LOL

    I think it is possible that one of the reasons LE did not hone in on ZA is maybe he was working as an informant or maybe he was a past informant or worse. I think we may have discussed this possibility awhile back.

    When we looked at his extensive criminal record and how many "plea deals" he must have made to get such light sentences and be out on the street I think it is very possible he may have been used in some capacity for LE as some type of informant. A deal with the devil may have been made which may have influenced whether he was closely looked at or not in the early parts of the investigation.

    The reason I think this is some things appear to make no sense at all on the surface.

    This town was rather small and there were very limited people to first look at who could have done something like this in that town. Their names would have been well known to LE. So what makes no sense is why his doors weren't bashed in very early on to look for Holly.

    If LE really wanted to, they could have easily gotten a signed warrant to search his house. His criminal history alone was reason enough to get a warrant IMO. They would have found a way to get a signed search warrant if they really wanted to.

    So the mystery is why wasn't he looked at and why wasn't his house searched very early on? Especially when rumors in the town started to fly and I am sure their names came up often.
    And still LE avoided him like the plague. It makes no sense UNLESS he was some sort of informant or past informant OR had some kind of deal with someone. Then all of a sudden it makes a lot of sense why he was not targeted for a house search and some serious questioning. This would be the minimum expected and never happened from what I recall.

    It was only when the pearl arrest happened that LE was forced to look his way. And even then we notice that ZA seemed to not be the main target even in that one. So all things were pointing to him being treated "special" and possibly in cohoots with some LE type.

    Now going to get a real tin foil hat on if we assume there was some kind of relationship.
    Which then begs the question what type of "deal" really was going on there? Was it solely an informant type relationship OR could money have been funneled to someone's pockets. This may seem outlandish at first but take a step back and think about this for a minute.

    Here we had a national high profile kidnap with most likely murder of the most beautiful girl in a small town and some of the main locally known bad guys in town are never seriously looked at until LE is forced to look at them because of an unrelated but very serious Pearl Thieving scheme. It was only because that Pearl Thieving scheme by itself made major local news all on its own that forced LE to take a serious look at these crooks for possibly being involved in Holly's crime.

    Whoever heard of Midwest Land Locked Pearl farming until this case? And why did that case fizzle away?

    I honestly hate to think this but I am forced to consider that the answers to some of these questions could all come back to MONEY and some back dealing that may have went on. If not that, then some sort of past informant relationship between LE and ZA.
    Last edited by Hatfield; 12-29-2015 at 11:54 AM. Reason: fixed typo

  2. #1052
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    JMO
    To add something that makes me lean towards some kind of deal.
    We have seen signs that the local LE there seem to be "deal happy".

    There was the deal/no-deal with the person that ended up dead in Florida. There was the deal/no-deal/kind of a deal with DA.
    And I have to assume many sentencing deals were made with ZA to be able to be out on the streets with his criminal record.

    So IMO there is evidence that deals are a big tool used in that local jurisdiction.

    It may be common for lots of small jurisdictions to use dealing and plea dealing with their cases. I don't know if it is or isn't. To me it could also be a sign of a lack of competence with being able to handle trying cases in front of a jury. If the DA and the lawyer staff is not very skilled then it seems to me that using deals is one easy way to avoid losing cases or showing lack of skills. I am not sure if that was the case here but I do think the use of deals was widely used in that jurisdiction.

  3. #1053
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    This may have been known already but its the first time I saw an article that explained how he died.

    http://www.jacksonsun.com/story/news...nged/24115817/

  4. #1054
    SteveS is offline Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxfire View Post
    SteveS, all of the obvious indicators of a well planned crime were present on the morning that Holly was abducted. It was also obvious that DCSO & HCSO had no pre-established abduction plan in place, or the perp/s would have likely been apprehended and HB rescued on the morning of the abduction, imo..
    It was five days before road blocks were established by DCSO investigators..
    1 "all of the obvious indicators of a well planned crime were present on the morning that Holly was abducted."

    Nope. There were none. We can see things went in a certain way, and assume it was all a grand plan to start with A and end with Z an hour or day or week later, but none of the events as they unfolded needed any planning. Just needed an obsessed scumball to drive by the house where his obsession lived, see the mother leave for work, and get the not-so-bright idea to wait for her to come out and grab her. Then walk her to his vehicle, take her to his house, and figure it out from there as he went. Not saying that was how it went down, but nothing that we know says a plan had to have existed before the perp drove to/past the house that morning.

    2 "It was five days before road blocks were established by DCSO investigators."

    That is a fact, perhaps, but doesn't indicate whether or not the perp had a plan when he started events in motion. Although it could be further indication that, unbeknownst to a perp making it up as he goes, a simple impulsive grab-and-go had every reason to be successful without a plan existing.
    REMINDER: All my comments are IMO AFAIK
    All posts are offered imo and to the best of my knowledge.

  5. #1055
    SteveS is offline Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK etc
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    Haltfield, respectfully, I think you kinda have it backwards in two points in your thinking.

    "If LE really wanted to, they could have easily gotten a signed warrant to search his house. His criminal history alone was reason enough to get a warrant IMO. They would have found a way to get a signed search warrant if they really wanted to."

    Respectfully, it doesn't work like that. The laws regarding search warrants are designed for that very purpose - to keep LE from invading our homes and looking up our butts because they don't like us and wonder or suspect we might be doing something - and that sort of LE activity is part of what sparked the Revolutionary War and led to the Bill of Rights that protects us from such things. And it's a big trap to do an illegal search, since everything you find PLUS everything that flows from everything you find can be ruled inadmissible, and convictions can be set aside.

    The simple truth is that even if they wanted to search, they had to have a SPECIFIC thing(s) to go in and search for, based on a tip, other evidence, and so on. Can't go in on the basis of "we think he might have done this, so we want to look through his house and see if we can find something to back that up." Rumors and suspicion aren't enough. You say they "didn't want to" search, but to me it's way more likely they had been waiting and hoping for a reason to search, but couldn't get one that would give them the legal opening.

    "It was only when the pearl arrest happened that LE was forced to look his way."

    I think it was the other way around. IE I think they had been looking his way all along, and the pearl arrest opened a door for them that they had been looking to open, but was shut.

    The pearl case and direct accusations offered them an opportunity to do a legal search for the pearls. They had testimony from a witness that he had them. So it literally got them in his door, legally.

    From there, imo the following events were all well-planned. With a valid reason to enter and search for the pearls, they had the chance to also observe and keep their eyes open for ANYTHING that might remotely relate to HB, or even for anything that might be described that way, so that they could take those "in plain sight" observations to a judge and get a SW to return to look for Holly and/or for item A-B-C related to the Holly case. As I recall, they arrested ZA for the pearl theft at that point, he admitted he had the pearls and gave them up, giving them further opportunity to go in the home to get the pearls and secure the home as needed while they took him, perhaps making him a casual offer to "work with him" to get what he might need to take to jail, and so on, and all the while keeping their eyes open for anything to validate a Holly-related SW.

    I suspect that the DA tale arose here at some point. It could have preceded the pearl search (in which case, in the pearl search they looked for items in plain sight that, combined with DA's words, would create a legally valid basis to search for this or that). Or perhaps they got DA to talk after the pearl search - "we were in that house, we saw A-B-C, tell us what you know" - and then DA spilled enough to allow a search related to Holly. But either way, I strongly think the pearl search was the opening they had been hoping for, but had never gotten until then.
    REMINDER: All my comments are IMO AFAIK
    All posts are offered imo and to the best of my knowledge.

  6. #1056
    SteveS is offline Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatfield View Post
    JMO
    To add something that makes me lean towards some kind of deal.
    We have seen signs that the local LE there seem to be "deal happy".

    There was the deal/no-deal with the person that ended up dead in Florida. There was the deal/no-deal/kind of a deal with DA.
    And I have to assume many sentencing deals were made with ZA to be able to be out on the streets with his criminal record.

    So IMO there is evidence that deals are a big tool used in that local jurisdiction.

    It may be common for lots of small jurisdictions to use dealing and plea dealing with their cases. I don't know if it is or isn't. To me it could also be a sign of a lack of competence with being able to handle trying cases in front of a jury. If the DA and the lawyer staff is not very skilled then it seems to me that using deals is one easy way to avoid losing cases or showing lack of skills. I am not sure if that was the case here but I do think the use of deals was widely used in that jurisdiction.
    Very astute observations. But I would add that this makes them like most other places. Too many cases, too few courts, too much iffiness in the system, too few top-notch litigators - add it all together, and making deals is the name of the legal game more often than not. Save the courtroom drama for TV and movies.
    REMINDER: All my comments are IMO AFAIK
    All posts are offered imo and to the best of my knowledge.

  7. #1057
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    Speaking of Plea Bargaining - "95% of all criminal cases are resolved through plea bargains" according to:
    http://thepleabargainingblog.blogspot.com/

    Being interesting to see a state-by-state breakdown of plea-bargains... as well as murder cases versus other crimes...

  8. #1058
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    New thread

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