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Thread: Observations of a newby

  1. #1
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    Observations of a newby

    Hi all. I don't post here much and I just recently took an interest in this case. Two things kind of stand out to me and I thought I'd share. Sorry if this may have already been discussed.

    First about the garrotte. I read all the analysis that said it wouldn't work. So I made my own and put it around my husband's wrist. Yes, he loves me that much . Anyway, when I pull it his arm and fisted hand twists and comes toward me. I have to put my other hand on his fist to get any type of leverage. So, IMO, the bruise/contusion below JBR's ear in the autopsy photo could have been cause by a ring twisted backwards. So I wonder what jewery PR, JR, and others were wearing that night particularly on their left hands.

    Second. The way JR carried JBR up the stairs bothers me. He said its because he wanted to save his baby, ect ect. A kind of loving father thing. BUT a loving father IMO would have cradled the body and not held her around the waist apart from his own body. Recently, we had our dear puppy dog put down. It happened after midnight last Monday. We brought him home from the vet and buried him the next morning. I can still see my husband cradling that 90 lb great dane as he carried him out to his grave. Full rigor mortis had sent in. That IMO is a picture of a man that loves his baby. The picture in my mind of JR carrying JBR up the stairs, her arms high above her head and her head above his is the picture of a man that really didn't want to touch her dead body (nothing wrong with that, I couldn't touch the puppy) but needs to bring her upstairs for some other reason. In other words I don't buy his reasoning for moving JBR and destroying the crime scene.

  2. #2
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    The way JR carried JBR up the stairs bothers me. He said its because he wanted to save his baby, ect ect. A kind of loving father thing. BUT a loving father IMO would have cradled the body and not held her around the waist apart from his own body.

    Welcome Leve,

    The man was in unspeakable agony and shock. He wasn't thinking about how to preserve a crime scene. All his actions at that moment,were "knee jerk" reactions.We've all had situations like that,where we answered: "I don't know,I have no idea why I did that.", and that was in much less stressful situations than what JR was dealing with. As far as JR holding JB far from him ... speaking for myself,the last thing I would want,is to feel my baby girl as cold and hard as a statue.In my hysterical state ... I might have done the same thing.

  3. #3
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    What I love about this site is such respectful posters. Coming from CTV its very refreshing.

    I agree with you. What I can't wrap my mind around is given the fact he was in "unspeakable agony and shock" and the thought of his feeling his baby girl as cold and hard as a statue......why pick her up? I can see calling for sissors to remove the ropes, I can see screaming for help, I can see removing the tape from her mouth, and I can even see having utter disregard for preserving the crime scene. I just can't see picking her up like that.

    I read the police officer's account of JR's reaction to finding JB, its one reason I am so confused about his involvement/noninvolvement in this case. I don't think anyone can "fake" the amount of pain she witnessed. I just don't believe his reasons for putting himself in that kind of agony.

    If you can't tell - I think the Ramsey's had something to do with their daughter's death but I don't know. If that makes any sense.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leve
    Hi all. I don't post here much and I just recently took an interest in this case. Two things kind of stand out to me and I thought I'd share. Sorry if this may have already been discussed.

    First about the garrotte. I read all the analysis that said it wouldn't work. So I made my own and put it around my husband's wrist. Yes, he loves me that much . Anyway, when I pull it his arm and fisted hand twists and comes toward me. I have to put my other hand on his fist to get any type of leverage. So, IMO, the bruise/contusion below JBR's ear in the autopsy photo could have been cause by a ring twisted backwards. So I wonder what jewery PR, JR, and others were wearing that night particularly on their left hands.

    Second. The way JR carried JBR up the stairs bothers me. He said its because he wanted to save his baby, ect ect. A kind of loving father thing. BUT a loving father IMO would have cradled the body and not held her around the waist apart from his own body. Recently, we had our dear puppy dog put down. It happened after midnight last Monday. We brought him home from the vet and buried him the next morning. I can still see my husband cradling that 90 lb great dane as he carried him out to his grave. Full rigor mortis had sent in. That IMO is a picture of a man that loves his baby. The picture in my mind of JR carrying JBR up the stairs, her arms high above her head and her head above his is the picture of a man that really didn't want to touch her dead body (nothing wrong with that, I couldn't touch the puppy) but needs to bring her upstairs for some other reason. In other words I don't buy his reasoning for moving JBR and destroying the crime scene.

    Good question about the jewelry. Who knows what they were wearing (I can't even remember if they determinded this). It took a year or more for the police to finally get the clothes the R's were wearing the 24th, so I doubt they'll ever get to the bottom of the jewelry. If I remember correctly, the blouse that Patsy finally turned over was new.

    As for the way he carried her up the stairs, I think it was about crime scene contamination. I think he "found" the body much earlier, and when Ardnt sent him and Fleet on their hunt, he found her.

    There are just so many inconsistant statements and actions by the Ramsey's it boggles the mind.

  5. #5
    It took a year or more for the police to finally get around to asking for the clothes they wore that night.

    I believe one of the interviews talks about her rings.

  6. #6
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    QUOTE>> If you can't tell - I think the Ramsey's had something to do with their daughter's death but I don't know. If that makes any sense.

    Yep, because thats where I'm at!
    If a Ramsey wasn't involved in JonBenet's death ,I would be very suprised.
    I'd like to think an IDI did it, but cant get past the Ramsey's suspicous behaviour and lies.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipper
    It took a year or more for the police to finally get around to asking for the clothes they wore that night.

    I believe one of the interviews talks about her rings.
    I thought it was that the Ramsey's took a year to finally hand over the clothes they wore that night to the police.

  8. #8
    Talking about the way John carried JonBenet's body upstairs. He couldn't 'cradle' the body horizontally or he wouldn't have fitted through the doorways. So he was restricted to carrying it in the vertical position. Someone has just stated on this thread that he held it around the waist and out away from his own body, which does sound a little odd. But actually, when you think about it, it probably was the most appropriate way of holding something rigid of that size and weight if you were trying to run up a flight of stairs as quickly as you possibly could. Think of a log of wood 5 ft long, that is exactly how you would hold it to run up stairs with it. Although if you were a strong man you might carry it balanced on one shoulder. Perhaps John should have done it that way, then people could have really got stuck into him. Or maybe he should have grabbed her ponytail and dragged her upstairs by her hair.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by narlacat
    I thought it was that the Ramsey's took a year to finally hand over the clothes they wore that night to the police.
    From ST's depo:
    Q. Did it strike you as odd that the Boulder Police Department never made a request to the Ramsey
    family to obtain the articles of clothing that they wore on the 25th of December for almost a year?



    MR. DIAMOND: Are you representing that is the case?

    Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I think Mr. Thomas knows that is absolutely the case, don't you?

    A. Which question?

    Q. That the one that I -- well, the Boulder Police Department didn't ask John and Patsy Ramsey for
    the articles of clothing they had worn on the 25th of December, 1996 until almost a year later, true?
    A. For a long time, that was a mistake, yes.

    Somewhere I've seen the specific dates of the request. If I find them I'll add them in.

  10. #10
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    Another reason JR may have held JonBenet "away" from him is that she had an odor of decay about her. As Det. Arndt stated.

    I still think it's odd that he picked her up and brought her upstairs.
    He claims to have been very concerned about Patsy SEEING JonBenet.
    His instinct should have then been to call down the detective to the basement - and keep Patsy at bay.
    He had NO way of knowing that perhaps Patsy had wandered into the part of the house where he rushed up with JonBenet.

    This is just one more of the "fishy" things that went on in the house that morning.
    This post is my opinion.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by K777angel
    Another reason JR may have held JonBenet "away" from him is that she had an odor of decay about her. As Det. Arndt stated.

    I still think it's odd that he picked her up and brought her upstairs.
    He claims to have been very concerned about Patsy SEEING JonBenet.
    His instinct should have then been to call down the detective to the basement - and keep Patsy at bay.
    He had NO way of knowing that perhaps Patsy had wandered into the part of the house where he rushed up with JonBenet.

    This is just one more of the "fishy" things that went on in the house that morning.

    I'm almost sure I heard this years ago...that John said that he attempted CPR???
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

  12. #12
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    Welcome, Leve.

    Someone here, but can't remember who, did some "experimentation" with rings and that person also thinks that the neck marks were made by Patsy's ring. The poster had some very convincing information. Maybe someone will remember who this was and he/she will post accordingly.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah
    Welcome, Leve.

    Someone here, but can't remember who, did some "experimentation" with rings and that person also thinks that the neck marks were made by Patsy's ring. The poster had some very convincing information. Maybe someone will remember who this was and he/she will post accordingly.
    Wolfmarsgirl. Funnily enough, I just bumped up her posts at my forum earlier today. Here's her webpage:-

    http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html
    This is only my opinion

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by narlacat
    I thought it was that the Ramsey's took a year to finally hand over the clothes they wore that night to the police.
    It was the Ramsey's who took so long. And I'm sure I read where the shirt Patsy turned over was new, not the one she wore that day/night, but a look-alike. The Ramsey's stalled and stammered at every piont, and in the mean time, they tossed everyone under the bus.

    And how about looking for the "Killer" like they said they were going to do...they haven't done a thing. They probably lunch with OJ.

    There is no way the things the R's did can be explained away. The police made many mistakes, but the L's lawyered-up and that was that. I am sure had the crime scene been preserved, the little breakfast bunch not allowed in the house, and the R's talked to separately...this would have been solved a long time ago. The person I feel bad for is Burke....but I think he will eventually solve this mystery once and for all...eventually.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by K777angel
    Another reason JR may have held JonBenet "away" from him is that she had an odor of decay about her. As Det. Arndt stated.

    I still think it's odd that he picked her up and brought her upstairs.
    He claims to have been very concerned about Patsy SEEING JonBenet.
    His instinct should have then been to call down the detective to the basement - and keep Patsy at bay.
    He had NO way of knowing that perhaps Patsy had wandered into the part of the house where he rushed up with JonBenet.

    This is just one more of the "fishy" things that went on in the house that morning.
    I think the entire thing was about contaminating the crime scene. You're right, had he been concerned about Patsy seeing Jonbenet, he would have left JonBenet in the basement.

    There are so many "fishy" things that went on in that house, that it would take a net the size of Texas to contain it all.

    The one thing that happened that made me not believe a word out of the R's mouth was the ransome note, and the tea party they had that morning. I guess they weren't worried about their little girl being "beheaded" if they talk to a stray dog....That was a HUH moment for me.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipper
    From ST's depo:
    Q. Did it strike you as odd that the Boulder Police Department never made a request to the Ramsey
    family to obtain the articles of clothing that they wore on the 25th of December for almost a year?



    MR. DIAMOND: Are you representing that is the case?

    Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I think Mr. Thomas knows that is absolutely the case, don't you?

    A. Which question?

    Q. That the one that I -- well, the Boulder Police Department didn't ask John and Patsy Ramsey for
    the articles of clothing they had worn on the 25th of December, 1996 until almost a year later, true?
    A. For a long time, that was a mistake, yes.

    Somewhere I've seen the specific dates of the request. If I find them I'll add them in.

    Can you explain how the blouse that Patsy turned over was new, not used? If they did indeed ask for it later, it was a mistake (and lots were made by the police), but there is NO way all the contradictions and lies the R's told can be explained away...no way.

    I for one do not think Patsy is going to see JonBenet any time soon.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toltec
    I'm almost sure I heard this years ago...that John said that he attempted CPR???
    More crime scene contamination. I think that's what that whole thing was about....to make sure everyone saw him carrying her and touching her. That way his DNA could be explained.

    And of course the killer/kidnapper/intruder lol wiped her crotch area clean. I swear, this is like a bad mystery novel. Poor little JonBenet will probably never see justice...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles
    Wolfmarsgirl. Funnily enough, I just bumped up her posts at my forum earlier today. Here's her webpage:-

    http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html
    Wow! Thanks. Thats exactly what I suspected.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayelles
    Wolfmarsgirl. Funnily enough, I just bumped up her posts at my forum earlier today. Here's her webpage:-

    http://www.geocities.com/wolfchick942003/photopage.html
    Do you still have your forum? Wonderful! When we moved mr. tipper cleaned out all my cookies (I nearly killed him) and I couldn't find it through google etc. I'd given up until you mentioned it. Can you give me the link? Thanks.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvbeaches
    It was the Ramsey's who took so long. And I'm sure I read where the shirt Patsy turned over was new, not the one she wore that day/night, but a look-alike. The Ramsey's stalled and stammered at every piont, and in the mean time, they tossed everyone under the bus.

    And how about looking for the "Killer" like they said they were going to do...they haven't done a thing. They probably lunch with OJ.

    There is no way the things the R's did can be explained away. The police made many mistakes, but the L's lawyered-up and that was that. I am sure had the crime scene been preserved, the little breakfast bunch not allowed in the house, and the R's talked to separately...this would have been solved a long time ago. The person I feel bad for is Burke....but I think he will eventually solve this mystery once and for all...eventually.
    The thing that bothers me is and makes me suspicious of the R"S is the way they act.
    Yes,I know everyone acts different under extreme stress and pressure but when you look at the R's ,OJ, Scott Peterson they just acted strangely!Compare that to the VanDams, Mark Klaas,the Smart,s their actions just do not "feel right" Now grant it we can not prosecute on feelings but my gut feeling is "SUMTHIN wrong here ' to use Dr. Lee's quote.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by luvbeaches
    It was the Ramsey's who took so long. And I'm sure I read where the shirt Patsy turned over was new, not the one she wore that day/night, but a look-alike. The Ramsey's stalled and stammered at every piont, and in the mean time, they tossed everyone under the bus.
    No. The Ramseys turned the clothes over within a month of when they were asked. What ST says in his book is "Had the original investigators bagged the clothing on the morning of Dec 26, we would have had instant possession...Instead we waited more than a year." He dishonestly fails to mention BPD didn't ask for the clothes for nearly a year. She sent two shirts. One he claims "smelled brand new" the other he deems too small. For reasons he doesn't explain he says neither was worn on Dec 26th.

    Quote Originally Posted by luvbeaches
    And how about looking for the "Killer" like they said they were going to do...they haven't done a thing. They probably lunch with OJ. .
    They have spent huge sums on private investigators. Their depositions mention information found by their investigators and turned over to the police. Nowhere in the conversations do the police deny that Ramsey investigators turned info over to them.

    [...]

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplesimon
    The thing that bothers me is and makes me suspicious of the R"S is the way they act.
    Yes,I know everyone acts different under extreme stress and pressure but when you look at the R's ,OJ, Scott Peterson they just acted strangely!Compare that to the VanDams, Mark Klaas,the Smart,s their actions just do not "feel right" Now grant it we can not prosecute on feelings but my gut feeling is "SUMTHIN wrong here ' to use Dr. Lee's quote.
    I'm with you...something is not right.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipper
    No. The Ramseys turned the clothes over within a month of when they were asked. What ST says in his book is "Had the original investigators bagged the clothing on the morning of Dec 26, we would have had instant possession...Instead we waited more than a year." He dishonestly fails to mention BPD didn't ask for the clothes for nearly a year. She sent two shirts. One he claims "smelled brand new" the other he deems too small. For reasons he doesn't explain he says neither was worn on Dec 26th.

    They have spent huge sums on private investigators. Their depositions mention information found by their investigators and turned over to the police. Nowhere in the conversations do the police deny that Ramsey investigators turned info over to them.

    [...]
    At this point, there's really nothing that's going to change my mind. There's just too many other things that do not add up with the Ramsey's. I do believe that Burke is going to solve this mystery, once and for all.

  24. #24
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    Welllll

    Have not gone to Jayelles link yet, suffering from major eye strain this morning. Later.

    Leve, I appreciated your noble and revealing test with the EA device.

    About the carrying the body up the stairs, major boo boo, imop.

    What shoulda, coulda, mighta been done by a caring parent, when her body was found by JR was indeed to have hollered at the top of his voice and collapsed in shaking distress and tears. Yes men cry.

    Bodies found and undisturbed, are removed by the 'professionals' on a gurney, when the initial investigation is completed collecting forensic info etc. Carrying a tiny body up the stairs on a gurney by professionals is done easily, even if a turn is to be made on the upward climb.

    I noted that her body was taken from the house in full view of the television cameras on a 'gurney'.

    Yep JR is highly suspect in my book of wonderment, in that he wanted to remove himself from the list of 'who done it people'.

    Everyone I know, including myself, when looking for a 'lost' anything, watch, letter, whatever, hollers when they find 'it'. Do I have odd friends or do you do that too?


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  25. #25
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    I think there is a HUGE difference between a lost item and finding your child dead.


    I have no idea how a person SHOULD react at such a horrible time, nor will I pretend to even know how I would react.

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