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  1. #16
    I agree that these poor people should be able to take whatever they need to survive. Looters who are stealing food, shoes and diapers should not be held accountable for their actions. As long as you are taking it because you need it not because you always wanted it. The sad thing is 9 people have been shot and killed for looting. Are the material objects more important than their lives? I think not. I wont even bother to address the racial comment except to say that it is ignorant . I believe the help did not get there soon enough but to blame race is moronic.


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beyond Belief
    Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control.
    I had to look to see when this was posted. You don't think things are out of control. People, including babies, have died of dehydration. People are being raped, robbed. Rescuers are being fired on.

    Money will be coming their way that we know for sure.
    Do you mean that they will get assistance? After losing everything, maybe even loved ones? They probably will get money. I hope my donations make it to them.

    No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands.
    Yeah, those pesky people demanding food and water, and protection from harm. If people didn't stay behind voluntarily, would you be ok with saving them? Like hospital workers and those who maybe didn't see a bus come by and have no car. Maybe the woman photographed next to her dead husband, who had lung cancer and couldn't be moved, so she stayed behind with him. Can she get a bottle or water or is that too great a demand? I say let's save them all, and the horrors they endured can be their punishment IF they chose to stay.

    The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.
    I guess there are a few lowlife there. I don't count among them those who are taking food and water from stores. The rapists and shooters, yep, they're lowlives. But not those who are trying to stay alive. You say "relief should be there." I think at this point to you "relief" is an abstract concept. Your belly isn't empty. Your child isn't near death from lack of water. Your clothes aren't sticking to you, possibly chafing your skin raw from filth and sweat. You aren't trying not to vomit from the stench of dead bodies.

    Here's something some might find interesting. Note the different captions, and note the different race of the people in the pictures.


  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgeaux
    There was a plan. We are finding out exactly how lacking the plan turned out to be in a lot of areas. People were told to get the hell out of Dodge! BUSSES were sent for people who had no way out on their own! Some people chose not to take advantage of the ride away from low-lying areas.

    New Orleans issued a MANDATORY evacuation on Sunday, one day before the hurricane hit and two days before the flooding began.

    80% of the people did evacuate. 20% stayed behind. I'm thinking that of that 20% MOST OF THEM KNEW a hurricane was coming and decided to ride it out. Well, it's been a rougher ride than they imagined.

    Was it stupid to house people in the Super Dome? Yep. Could the plan have been better? Yep. Will it be better next time? I sure hope so.

    AS FOR THE LACK OF HELP BEING RACIAL: New Orleans has a black mayor, a black chief of police, a black man heads the utilities department, the educational system, etc. It is a city run by African Americans. I don't think that race has much to do with the things we see going horribly wrong. The head of Acadian Ambulance cancelled rescue missions to hospitals at one point because the ambulances were being attacked. Now we hear of people dying in the hospitals because they haven't been evacuated. Whose fault is it? Rescuers have been shot at! We are hearing of people who still haven't been rescued, God help them. But whose fault is it? Helicopters, shot at!! Is it the fault of the rescuers, or the damn ****s with guns who are strutting around so stupid that they would shoot the ones who come to save them?
    I agree. If you really think about it, A LOT has been done in just 4 days! Not enough, clearly, but let's realize we are talking thousands and thousands of people. As someone at work said yesterday (and I posted it, but I think it's worth repeating, IMO) - "This is the first time we've tried to relocate an ENTIRE municipality."

    People interviewed that said a lot of people didn't have the means to leave, but a lot didn't leave because they're "sentimental." Not my word, but from a guy from down there. Heck, I'm sentimental, but won't lose my life or my family's life due to being sentimental. It's disheartening to me that people who have never been through an emergency/disaster can talk about what all needs to be done. I hate to see the finger-pointing now - get the people taken care of (in flocks of 25,000! at a time) and we can all have the next 5-10 years to analyze what went wrong and where. It'll be analyzed and debated for years to come. I also can't blame Bush or even Clinton if ya wanna go back further. This has been years of mismanagement, I guess.

    And no, I do not think race has much of anything to do with it. Maybe the enormity of the poverty, and lack of means to evacuate, may have been underestimated; but other than that, no, I don't think there was a layer of government (local, state or federal) that sat back and decided we won't plan accordingly because of race. JMHO.

    There was an African American male on Fox this morning, being interviewed after he and his family had been transported to the AstroDome, but turned away because it's full. He sounded disgusted with what "my own people" are doing. His words, not mine. He said now was the time to step up and be a real man. God bless him and his wife and I think it was 2 small kids with him. I hope he's one that is being sent to Reliant Stadium.


  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgeaux
    There was a plan. We are finding out exactly how lacking the plan turned out to be in a lot of areas. People were told to get the hell out of Dodge! BUSSES were sent for people who had no way out on their own! Some people chose not to take advantage of the ride away from low-lying areas.

    New Orleans issued a MANDATORY evacuation on Sunday, one day before the hurricane hit and two days before the flooding began.

    80% of the people did evacuate. 20% stayed behind. I'm thinking that of that 20% MOST OF THEM KNEW a hurricane was coming and decided to ride it out. Well, it's been a rougher ride than they imagined.

    Was it stupid to house people in the Super Dome? Yep. Could the plan have been better? Yep. Will it be better next time? I sure hope so.

    AS FOR THE LACK OF HELP BEING RACIAL: New Orleans has a black mayor, a black chief of police, a black man heads the utilities department, the educational system, etc. It is a city run by African Americans. I don't think that race has much to do with the things we see going horribly wrong. The head of Acadian Ambulance cancelled rescue missions to hospitals at one point because the ambulances were being attacked. Now we hear of people dying in the hospitals because they haven't been evacuated. Whose fault is it? Rescuers have been shot at! We are hearing of people who still haven't been rescued, God help them. But whose fault is it? Helicopters, shot at!! Is it the fault of the rescuers, or the damn ****s with guns who are strutting around so stupid that they would shoot the ones who come to save them?
    Excellent post. Playing the "race card" makes me SICK! This is NOT racial, this is NOT political. It's crap like that that keeps the pot stirred all the time.
    Last edited by Lesleegp; 09-02-2005 at 03:36 PM.


  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEPUTYDAWG
    I hate to see the finger-pointing now - get the people taken care of (in flocks of 25,000! at a time) and we can all have the next 5-10 years to analyze what went wrong and where.
    Yesterday morning, I saw the White House spokesperson telling us all things weren't that bad. He was spinning like a top. Little was being done, and more absolutely could have. Let's leave aside the question of if people should or shouldn't have left and think for a minute if this were the result of an unanticipated disaster. We'd expect, and we should expect, that we'd have gotten troops there, we'd have moved faster and done more. We get there when it's halfway around the world, but not in our own country.

    Back to the sugarcoating--the White House spokesperson did it, and while he was doing it, children were dying. Then CNN (and maybe others) started showing bodies and reporting on the true conditions. The head of FEMA said he didn't know of any "unrest" yesterday afternoon, but most of the rest of us did. And we became outraged and desperate for those in LA. And imo that's finally what got the ball rolling. If not for media attention and public outcry, I'm not sure the response would be even the inadequate one we're getting today.

    So you wait to talk about it and you call our concerns "fingerpointing" but without it, I wonder if we'd be seeing a more feeble response today.

    BTW, people always stay behind. They always do. This isn't a surprise. We should have done more.


  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pardilia
    How on EARTH can you say that?!

    You're not there - those people do NOT have FOOD or WATER. The stores are closed - there's no electricity for people to purchase the food or the water they need. They have to get it somehow.

    It's not like they're just stealing to steal - they're stealing to *survive*. So many people have lost so much...they're taking what they can - food, water, electronics they can use to sell/trade to get more help for themselves.

    The fault is with the government taking well over FOUR DAYS to get help to people. I totally believe there's a race issue going on here. They have no major reason to help those people - there's not financial gain for the government. That's why they're taking their sweet ol' time...I have absolutely no doubt that if the majority of the people involved were porcelain white and filthy rich this would NOT be happening.

    A portion of our country is practically the equivalent of a Third World nation right now. No one in power has said "Those people need help - let's get whatever aid to them NOW and we'll figure out the paperwork later." It's been controlled by idiotic bureaucracy. It's disgusting that the need for "law & order" has overulled the need to GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE.

    Yes, that's correct. We're sending people in to guard the buildings and prevent the looting and not sending in FOOD, WATER, or CLOTHES.

    It's just disgusting...and it really scares me that such a thing can happen in our country. The way things have been going, though, I really shouldn't be surprised.

    I agree! The biggest majority of New Orleans are not looting and carrying off televisions and guns , but food or necessitites if even doing it at all. Anyone would resort to this instead of watching their babies lay there and die. They said that thousands of the guard are being sent in and I kept waiting to see if they will each be carrying as much water and they can carry to the victims. Also, many many of these people who did not leave could not leave. It was the end of the month. Social security and disability checks don't come out til the first of the month. There was no money for a tank of gas to get out of town before the storm. What needs to be asked, is why that the gov't didn't repair that levee years ago. This is all a disgrace and the rich, not just white, but the rich would not be treated this way. Poorer white people don't get much better treatment and I just hope that these people can actually get medical treatment once the ones who don't lay there and die of thirst get out and need help with dysentary, infections, etc. Good luck to the ones in texas with medical help.


  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beyond Belief
    Its difficult to comprehend that the warning to evacuate wasn't taken more seriously. A simple two hour drive and they would have faired so much better. Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.
    BB,

    Your sentiments are well taken but they show your lack of understanding about the situation. As for those who did not evacuate, remember hurricane Ivan, much of NOLA evacuated - 3 elderly people died from that - and what happened - sunny weather, blue skies, not a drop of rain! Evacuation costs can break a family living from check to check.

    For many of those you see on TV, no two hour drive is "simple." Even if they did have vehicles, gas would be unaffordable for a one-way 2 hour drive to where?

    Had busses, planes or the Amtrack train service been available to these people, where would they have been taken?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beyond Belief
    The survivors need to be placed with extended family somewhere in the country as soon as possible. Trying to house them in these large numbers is ridiculous. This country has planes, trains and boats. Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control. Money will be coming their way that we know for sure.
    Not everyone has or is welcome by extended family. I would venture to say the extended families of these victims are struggling to survive on a daily basis just as these were before the storm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beyond Belief
    No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands. The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.
    God help us all! This is not a localized problem. The reprecussions will be felt nationwide. I see many in small communities in Louisiana and Texas that are opening their doors and providing the victims shelter and the other basic necessities. Many more need to consider doing the same. But like you said, who wants to be found "among the lowlife of New Orleans."

    It takes a lot of courage and faith to open your home to a stranger not knowing how long they will be in need. There are no simple answers to this.


  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dara
    So you wait to talk about it and you call our concerns "fingerpointing" but without it, I wonder if we'd be seeing a more feeble response today.

    BTW, people always stay behind. They always do. This isn't a surprise. We should have done more.

    Yes, guess I have a different personality - get in there, get 'er done, then do the post-analysis. I also didn't say I'm angered at some of the political spinning I may hear; but I would expect it on both Rep and Dem sides, so I'm not even going there.

    Yes, people stay behind - NEVER to this extreme. And as others have said, in Asia the people worked together to save as many as possible; IMO that's not the case down in NO, for whatever reason. And yes, I agree, more should have been done. But look at the good that has been done. Oh wait, a lot of that isn't covered on the media...

    IMO


  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEPUTYDAWG
    Yes, guess I have a different personality - get in there, get 'er done, then do the post-analysis.
    So, you're in there getting it done? My discussing this is somehow preventing it from "getting done?" Hell, the whole problem is I want them to get in there and get it done. Ain't happening. And that's something we need to address.

    I've given money. I've written several letters, I've posted here. I'm doing what I can.
    I also didn't say I'm angered at some of the political spinning I may hear; but I would expect it on both Rep and Dem sides, so I'm not even going there.
    Don't. No one has to comment on everything someone says. I saw spin. I don't expect spin from anyone. I expect truth. But as you say, different personalities.

    Yes, people stay behind - NEVER to this extreme.
    Which is why, imo, we need to look at why. When I saw the numbers of those who stayed, I asked myself why. I didn't assume they just wanted to. So, as I've been following this story, I see that some had ill relatives who could not be moved. Upthread, some other reasons have been given. But even if this were an unexpected disaster, more should have been done. They weren't prepared for even a fraction of those who stayed, even the number that could have been predicted.

    And as others have said, in Asia the people worked together to save as many as possible; IMO that's not the case down in NO, for whatever reason. And yes, I agree, more should have been done.
    That's quite an understatement, imo, but it's something.

    But look at the good that has been done. Oh wait, a lot of that isn't covered on the media...
    Maybe not the media you watch. CNN has shown relief efforts, but they also showed the people in need, the dead, the dying. They had to, imo, and also imo the media lit the metaphorical firecracker. They showed the pitiful, inadequate response without deeming it so. They didn't have to. When babies die and bodies are stacked up, when people are told to go to a location and then abandoned (no one's in charge there), when police officers are turning in their badges, and the National Guard won't even go into some areas, we know the response was bungled. Severely.


  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight
    Oh, they'll do everything they can to get their financial port open, but it's obvious from the pictures that the majority of refugees (the PEOPLE) are poor and black. And the black mayor is on record as saying he is, quote, "pissed" about the lack of response from the federal government, among others. He can only do so much. I notice they don't seem to have quite the same issues in the white, casino laden coastal towns in Mississippi that were devastated. Where are THEIR refugees and lawlessness?
    Dark Knight....I preface this with "I love ya" and your posts!! But...

    Biloxi isn't sitting in a soup bowl of water either. And Biloxi didn't have a superdome and convention center full of 30,000 to 40,000 people or more waiting for assistance. I think things are more difficult by the very nature of the location and geographics of NO versus Biloxi. I don't think it's comparative simply because Biloxi isn't below sea level and the populations are nowhere near the same. NO has about 500,000 people....Biloxi has about 55,000, if I read up on my facts correctly.

    I still say race has nothing to do with it. I think logistics and poor planning have everything to do with it.
    It's my own two cents. You don't have to read or like it.


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pardilia
    It's disgusting that the need for "law & order" has overulled the need to GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE.
    HELLOOOO?? Are you kidding me? The rescuers are being shot at by armed ****s who are gang members and career criminals. They can't "GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE" until law and order is restored.


  12. #27
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    They should have MADE them get on those buses and evacuate. It is a certain percentage that is looting and shooting, but they are ruining rescue efforts for everyone else.

    My husband heard from other doctors that people are saying part of this was "planned" - they stayed back for the exact reason of wanting to loot and get us much as they could out of this. A new flat screen, etc.

    I'm not being prejudiced; I just know they're different, different culture and many are in poverty. I don't blame them for trying to get food and water.

    It just seems that New Orleans should know their culture and should have anticipated this. Can you legally make them evacuate? I don't know.

    We now have a little Baghdad in Louisiana - good thing the Guard is there.


  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marthatex
    They should have MADE them get on those buses and evacuate. It is a certain percentage that is looting and shooting, but they are ruining rescue efforts for everyone else.

    What evacuation buses??? Where were they??

    My husband heard from other doctors that people are saying part of this was "planned" - they stayed back for the exact reason of wanting to loot and get us much as they could out of this. A new flat screen, etc.

    "People are saying part of this was "planned" WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT?

    I'm not being prejudiced; You are I just know they're different, different culture and many are in poverty. I don't blame them for trying to get food and water.

    WHAT?

    It just seems that New Orleans should know their culture and should have anticipated this. Can you legally make them evacuate? I don't know.

    We now have a little Baghdad in Louisiana - good thing the Guard is there.
    THUD! I am simply stunned by you're comments.


  14. #29
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    I also heard reporters state that buses were sent to public housing areas PRIOR to the hurricane hit to evacuate those people to the Superdome...a lot of people would not get on those buses sent by the city at that time.

    I also heard reporters state that they have understood that there were some criminal element in NO that rode out the storm to loot what they could afterwards. I'm sure they didn't think they'd be stuck with the flood waters afterwards that didn't allow them to take advantage and enjoy their loot.

    I also heard the Mayor himself say this morning on radio and CNN state that there is a HUGE drug problem in NO and that these druggies are looting the pharmacies and hospitals to get their fix and hord up drugs for sales.

    So I don't think Martha was wayyyyyy off in her comments.
    It's my own two cents. You don't have to read or like it.


  15. #30
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    I think it's helpful to realize (and I'm sure most of us do) that not every single person stayed behind for the same reason. Not everyone wanted to stay behind and loot, though a small percent possibly did. Another percentage might have stayed behind to protect property from looters (can you imagine trying to replace everything you owned without insurance; some might feel the risk was worth it to keep their families from losing everything). Some didn't have the gas or resources to leave. Perhaps those buses that supposedly went to every street missed a few, or couldn't take someone who needed oxygen (that I heard). There are a lot of reasons. We know this happens every time a hurricane approaches. I'd like to know why so many people stayed behind, simply because I believe many didn't have a choice.


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