Changes Right Before the Murders

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Goody

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There are plenty of things that changed just before the murders, those out of the ordinary things that police look for. I had a list on another board but am too lazy to go find it now.

For starters though, you have:
1. suicide threat one month before the murders
2. hiring of a maid just two days before the murders after going without one for months
3. bringing all of her jewelry downstairs to show to the maid (to see if the maid knew of anyone who might want to buy it?)
4. Telling the maid she needed to raise $10,000 which was the same amount as the boys' life insurance policies.
5. being on the diet pill Fenphen for too long (she shouldn't have been on it at all)
6. Therapy after the suicide with confusing details (pretty much skated over at the trial)
7. Depression (possibly PPD)
8. Sending Dana home (Dana says it was her idea to go home so there are conflicting stories there)
8. The Jaguar breakdown coupled with the loss of her Pathfinder and her feeling like a caged animal without it
9. Boys dumping out the hottub water, upsetting both parents
10. Darlie and the boys sleeping downstairs with Darin and Drake out of ear shot of the downstairs
11. Them taking the biggest draw they ever had out of the company just a couple of weeks before.
 
Goody said:
There are plenty of things that changed just before the murders, those out of the ordinary things that police look for. I had a list on another board but am too lazy to go find it now.

For starters though, you have:
1. suicide threat one month before the murders
2. hiring of a maid just two days before the murders after going without one for months
3. bringing all of her jewelry downstairs to show to the maid (to see if the maid knew of anyone who might want to buy it?)
4. Telling the maid she needed to raise $10,000 which was the same amount as the boys' life insurance policies.
5. being on the diet pill Fenphen for too long (she shouldn't have been on it at all)
6. Therapy after the suicide with confusing details (pretty much skated over at the trial)
7. Depression (possibly PPD)
8. Sending Dana home (Dana says it was her idea to go home so there are conflicting stories there)
8. The Jaguar breakdown coupled with the loss of her Pathfinder and her feeling like a caged animal without it
9. Boys dumping out the hottub water, upsetting both parents
10. Darlie and the boys sleeping downstairs with Darin and Drake out of ear shot of the downstairs
11. Them taking the biggest draw they ever had out of the company just a couple of weeks before.
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Nice list. I wouldn't call them all "changes" but I can't think of a better word.
All indicate or possibly lead to murder.
The emotional stressors alone would not lead me to murder so much as when you add the need for money, the $10,000 figure being brought up and such.
Sleeping downstairs is an indication of possible preplanning.
Good job with the list.
 
Becba said:
Nice list. I wouldn't call them all "changes" but I can't think of a better word.
.
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Well, by changes I mean things out of the ordinary or things not in the normal routine. Police look for those types of things when first investigating a case because of the old where there is smoke,there is probably a fire adage.

I mean, what do you think when a wife is reported missing and you learn she is a doctor's wife, lives in an upscale neighborhood, is well respected, a good mother and a good wife, then you hear that the good doctor has a girlfriend? RED FLAG. That day he reported late to the office. CHANGE IN ROUTINE. Beginning to sound like murder.

Sure enough, a few days later her body turns up and the girl friend is telling cops he had talked of what life would be like without the old ball and chain his wife had become. Changes in routine are really important. They often tell cops where to sniff.

Darlie has a whole list of changes near and just before these murders. If they had just been going about life as usual, we probably wouldn't be seeing any of them and there wouldn't be any doubt that she was innocent. Cases that involve family members as both the victim and suspect almost always show changes like this. Maybe not as many as this case, but certainly enough changes are there to cause a good detective's nose to twitch.
 
Great list, Goody! You never cease to amaze me with your knowledge of this case.

Perhaps you could call them "potential triggers"?

I've racked my brain trying to add something to your list and all I can think of is Darin applying for a loan (twice?) and being turned down? Money was definitely an issue with them because they were both quite impulsive when it came to buying toys and baubles. I always dismissed the $10,000 in insurance money on the boys as NOT being a motivator since anyone with good sense knows it normally costs more than that for a funeral. However, your reminder re asking the maid re $10,000 sure does make the $10,000 in insurance policies seem more enticing. Darlie may have been too young or too unknowledgeable to think about funeral costs. Still, as much as I know she did commit the murders, I have so much trouble thinking she did it for a mere $10,000... so usually decide she did it out of a fit of anger.
 
HeartofTexas said:
Great list, Goody! You never cease to amaze me with your knowledge of this case..
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Thanks, but I really feel I am a lightweight compared to some who have been around a lot longer than I have.


HeartofTexas said:
I've racked my brain trying to add something to your list and all I can think of is Darin applying for a loan (twice?) and being turned down? Money was definitely an issue with them because they were both quite impulsive when it came to buying toys and baubles...
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It all kind of falls into the financial stresses. There are several things in that area of interest. The landlord of the shop had been trying to collect his rent unsuccessfully (at the time of the murders), Darin had not been very successful in getting slow paying clients to come up with his money, and Basia claimed he was padding bills (charging for services not rendered). A lot of his work was for gov agencies, I think.

Then there were the trips Darlie wanted to take. Most importantly. I think, was her trip to Cancun with Mercedes. I think Darlie was paying for that, maybe for both of them to go, and she didn't want to admit she didn't have the money for it. Or maybe she was just so hellbent on going, she couldn't let it go. Whatever those trips were real big deals in my estimation. That is why the focus was on the $10,000, why she might have thought she could use the insurance money to go and maybe pay for the funerals later. Or maybe she thought she'd have them cremated and save most of the money for her own needs. That would mean she wasn't attracted by thoughts of fame and fortune, and probably had no idea the case would become so big. If so, that soon changed because she and Darin had to have been looking around for someone to market their story rights about the time she was arrested, 12 days after the murders (or was that 14?). Why? Because Darin and Darlie Kee signed a contract with SilverCreek Productions (I think it was) two days after Darlie's arrest, and then later they sold their story rights to CWB to pay for Darlie's lawyer.


HeartofTexas said:
I always dismissed the $10,000 in insurance money on the boys as NOT being a motivator since anyone with good sense knows it normally costs more than that for a funeral. However, your reminder re asking the maid re $10,000 sure does make the $10,000 in insurance policies seem more enticing. Darlie may have been too young or too unknowledgeable to think about funeral costs. Still, as much as I know she did commit the murders, I have so much trouble thinking she did it for a mere $10,000... so usually decide she did it out of a fit of anger.
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It is really hard to figure why she did it because there are so many little things weaving through the period around the murders. I believe Darlie suffered from depression and I think she went into pretty deep periods and I believe it was related at least in part to the birth of Drake. I believe the diet pills irritated her fragile emotional state and probably contributed to the depression. A did all the financial issues and pressures of trying to live up to previously made committments and plans. I think maybe in the recesses of her mind that a plot to kill could have made perfect sense to her. Maybe it was impulsive or maybe just haphazard and not well thought out. Whatever, you have Darlie sitting around looking at insurance papers (I haven't given this much credit before), talking to maid about needing specifically the same amount as the insurance on the boys, a fight with Darin, etc. Sometimes what we process in our thoughts seems to make perfect sense until we say it out loud, then realize how outrageous or ridiculous it is. Maybe Darlie never said it out loud and then acted on it, thinking it made perfect sense. There is so much spinning around this girl, it is hard to tell. But it sure seems possible.

If she did it in a fit of anger, Devon must have been up and moving around shortly before he was attacked. So what did he do that sent her into that rage?
 
No one will know why Darlie killed her family. We as normal people try to justify the unjustifable. But we know that people rationalize the stupid things in their own minds, by their own values, motivators, beliefs, etc.

We all read crime stories, when we hear why people do things and then feel completly justified, we just shake our heads.

I don't care why Darlie did it, even if she did tell, it would just leave you shaking your head in disbelief.

I look forward to the day that she is : Dead women walking........
 
CyberLaw said:
No one will know why Darlie killed her family. We as normal people try to justify the unjustifable. But we know that people rationalize the stupid things in their own minds, by their own values, motivators, beliefs, etc.

We all read crime stories, when we hear why people do things and then feel completly justified, we just shake our heads.

I don't care why Darlie did it, even if she did tell, it would just leave you shaking your head in disbelief.

I look forward to the day that she is : Dead women walking........
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Motive is important because like it or not, Darlie is like many of us. She could be the lady next door, your sister-in-law's niece, the clerk in the neighborhood markert, etc. As long as we don't know why the Darlies of this world do what they do, our hands our tied to prevent the next one. So I think understanding...and we can understand motive even if the motive is not a strong enough reason to commit murder....understanding is important for many, many reasons outside of and beyond Darlie and the case itself.

I am not into the punishment as much as some, so seeing Darlie executed is not going to make my day. I do believe her crime justifies execution but I would be just as happy to see her with a long prison term where she could parole out in twenty years or so. Most women like Darlie will not reoffend. I just wouldn't want to see her off of death row without a full explanation in detail about what did happen that night and why. If Darin has any culpability in it, he should be punished as well.
 
I agree, Goody. I don't feel a big need to see Darlie executed. I think her crime was horrific and almost beyond words but I think the commiting of her crimes was the result of a culmination of so many mitigating factors all coming together at the same time to produce the events of that night. I would like to see more money and attention paid to PP depression, as I think it was one of the factors that contributed to the murders. Texas has had more than its share of moms murdering their children, and most of them stem from some form of depression following the birth of a child. It may be because Texas also has one of the lowest-funded mental health organizations to help with these very problems. I think men paying more attention to their wives' mental health would be putting a big step forward, too.
 
HeartofTexas said:
I agree, Goody. I don't feel a big need to see Darlie executed. I think her crime was horrific and almost beyond words but I think the commiting of her crimes was the result of a culmination of so many mitigating factors all coming together at the same time to produce the events of that night. I would like to see more money and attention paid to PP depression, as I think it was one of the factors that contributed to the murders. Texas has had more than its share of moms murdering their children, and most of them stem from some form of depression following the birth of a child. It may be because Texas also has one of the lowest-funded mental health organizations to help with these very problems. I think men paying more attention to their wives' mental health would be putting a big step forward, too.
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I agree that men need to be better educated on PPD/PPP, but I don't agree that Texas' low funded mental health is responsible for all these cases we see in the news. I think every state is having problems in that area and because Texas is so big, we just see more there because of sheer numbers. However, I will agree that lousy funding is probably a contributer. Tennessee is not real terrific in that dept either. I suspect a lot of states basically suck at taking care of their mentally ill. I don't know why we think the mentally ill should be responsible for their own mental health, but that seems to be the general consensus these days.
 
Goody said:
Motive is important because like it or not, Darlie is like many of us. She could be the lady next door, your sister-in-law's niece, the clerk in the neighborhood markert, etc. As long as we don't know why the Darlies of this world do what they do, our hands our tied to prevent the next one. So I think understanding...and we can understand motive even if the motive is not a strong enough reason to commit murder....understanding is important for many, many reasons outside of and beyond Darlie and the case itself
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I like to call them "Darlie reasons".
 
Motive is important because like it or not, Darlie is like many of us. She could be the lady next door, your sister-in-law's niece, the clerk in the neighborhood markert, etc. As long as we don't know why the Darlies of this world do what they do, our hands our tied to prevent the next one. So I think understanding...and we can understand motive even if the motive is not a strong enough reason to commit murder....understanding is important for many, many reasons outside of and beyond Darlie and the case itself.

I take grave exception that you are comparing murderers to the rest of the population. Darlie is sure as hell not like me or anyone I know. My kids are fine. My kids could never push me to the point of harming them.
People do things for their own reasons.

How would you understand and prevent the following:

My son was crying, so I grabbed a knife...........

My daughter was talking to my boyfriend, therefore she was trying to steal him from me.....so I grabbed a gun.

The toddler stole a cookie, therefore, he does not get food for a while.....

My husband received custody of the kids, therefore he will never have them if I cannot , I will just put them in the car, close the door, turn on the engine.

My wife broke her wedding "vow" and filed for Divorce, therefore if she broke her vow she went against "our Lord", I have decided her fate, let me grab the gun and knife.......

Should you stop children from crying, prevent a child from talking to the Mother's boyfriend, make sure all Mothers get full custody of their kids even if they are not fit to raise them. That would prevent the murders, make sure kids and Judges and whomever, bow to the mind and motivation of the person who wants to kill.

What would you do to "understand the motivation" behind the crimes mentioned above.

What about prevention of the above.......the motivation.......explain to me the "motivation" of a person to murder and the next person with the exact same circumstances does not.

It all lies with the person and the "choices" they make. There is no justification or strong enough motivation for murder, unless in self-defense. The motivation for self-defense - to save your own valuable life.

The motivation for murder - what ever the person feels is justified in their own minds. Do they value money over people......that is their own warped motive. Do we make sure that everyone, no matter what their financial situation is, has all the money they want and need, so they don't kill their husband or wife or children to get insurance money.....

If only the world was so simplistic as to think that to understand a person motivation for murder, future murders can be prevented. The next person is not the same, their minds and motivation are not the same. Therefore how can a person prevent a murder using a different set of circumstances and people.

Rational people do not and never will understand why and what motivates a person to commit a murder against her/his own flesh and blood.

A person chooses to react to different situation according to their own personal motivators. It has to do with their character, how they were raised, what they experienced, their personality......their environment.....

I don't care what warped or weird motivation Darlie had, nothing and I mean nothing can ever explain away what she did to two helpless sleeping children, then try to deceive everyone to save her own butt.

She put herself ahead of her own children, her own greed, her own identity, valued money over the life of her children.

It could have been as simple as one of the children out grew their clothes, asked for a new toy, needed new shoes. But Darlie could not go on vacation, so therefore in her own warped "motivation" killed the children who were going to drain her present and future resources.

I would wear 20 year old shoes for myself, as long as my child was fine, but the next person would kill their kid to buy themselves 20 pair of new shoes.

How would we prevent future murders with that motivation........








 
CyberLaw said:
I take grave exception that you are comparing murderers to the rest of the population. Darlie is sure as hell not like me or anyone I know. My kids are fine. My kids could never push me to the point of harming them.

People do things for their own reasons.

How would you understand and prevent the following:

My son was crying, so I grabbed a knife...........

My daughter was talking to my boyfriend, therefore she was trying to steal him from me.....so I grabbed a gun.

The toddler stole a cookie, therefore, he does not get food for a while.....

My husband received custody of the kids, therefore he will never have them if I cannot , I will just put them in the car, close the door, turn on the engine.

My wife broke her wedding "vow" and filed for Divorce, therefore if she broke her vow she went against "our Lord", I have decided her fate, let me grab the gun and knife.......

It all lies with the person and the "choices" they make. There is no justification or strong enough motivation for murder, unless in self-defense. The motivation for self-defense - to save your own valuable life.
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Don't forget Susan Smith's excuse, which some people on this forum seem to accept. "I'm married, but losing my lover because he does not like children, therefore: oooh bright idea". By the way, have you ever seen a picture of the lover? Not enough there to make me cross the lawn for, much less leave my husband and kill my children.
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beesy said:
[/color] Don't forget Susan Smith's excuse, which some people on this forum seem to accept. "I'm married, but losing my lover because he does not like children, therefore: oooh bright idea". By the way, have you ever seen a picture of the lover? Not enough there to make me cross the lawn for, much leave my husband and kill my children.
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I don't think anyone ever accepted Smith's reasoning for murdering her children. She at least said why she did it. And while the guy was no stud, she was pretty "Plain Jane" herself, so I can see the attraction they may have had with one another.
Routier won't admit why she murdered the boys.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
I don't think anyone ever accepted Smith's reasoning for murdering her children. She at least said why she did it. And while the guy was no stud, she was pretty "Plain Jane" herself, so I can see the attraction they may have had with one another.
Routier won't admit why she murdered the boys.
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I have heard people on here say things like "what did Darlie have to gain? Susan Smith was worried her boyfriend would leave her" or "at least Susan Smith had an excuse". The part about her lover' studliness was said in jest.
 
I think sometimes it's hard not to have a problem with your posts, Beesy. They sting, just like your name, "venomous beesy" implies.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
I don't think anyone ever accepted Smith's reasoning for murdering her children. She at least said why she did it. And while the guy was no stud, she was pretty "Plain Jane" herself, so I can see the attraction they may have had with one another.
Routier won't admit why she murdered the boys.
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"I believed The Chamberlins were gulity as sin until it all came out years later,no wonder she left our country and went to USA.
I cannot fathom how someone like Darlie ,could in fact think it all up???
what did she gain?"
Breehannah6 said:
from the "Lindy Chamberlain" thread.
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Breehannah6 said:
"In Susan Smiths case as well as some other cases it was over a man who didnt want to involve themselves with a mother,weak excues yes I agree".
Breehannah6 said:
from the "Lindy Chamberlain" thread/
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Click to expand...
 
HeartofTexas said:
I think sometimes it's hard not to have a problem with your posts, Beesy. They sting, just like your name, "venomous beesy" implies.
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I admit I can be very sarcastic, but it's not normally towards anybody but Darlie and her supporters. Sometimes there are debates where we get "testy" with one another, but other posters are right in there with me. Have I been mean to you? I'm sorry if I have. These Darlies just drive me nuts. I didn't realize my posts were causing so much pain though. Maybe I should stop posting? I am really not a mean person, full of sarcasm, but not mean. I'm sorry
 
So the "motivator" for Susan Smith was to put this "lover" ahead of her own children and then kill her own children. That is the motivator, then what can we do(by understanding the motive) to "prevent this again".

Nothing..........

I don't care if the guy was a stud, does not even factor into the matter, the matter was she killed her kids. Most "normal" mothers would say: You don't want or like kids, fine, there is the door, they were here before you and I gave birth to them, they are my children, you are not my child, so see ya......

Susan Smith was faced with overwhemling evidence that she was responsible. it took a lot for her to "breakdown" and tell the truth. At least she told the truth......

Darlie was convicted with overwhelming evidence, but she has NDP therefore she will NEVER, ever accept responsibility or even give anyone a clue why she killed her kids. She will never admit responsibility, even on her way to being executed, she will keep saying: You are making a mistake, the intruder, the intruder, find the intruder........she will always blame something or someone else......

Like I said before the only thing that any normal and rational and reasonable person can understand to justify murder is self defense.

Nothing else.......

I don't care what the lame execuses or motivation is.....there is no excuse for murder and the motivation is in the warped mind of the person committing the murder.........

Excuses are just excuses.........not accepting personal responsibility.......for what you have done.........

Diane Downs, Susan Smith....Darlie Routier......
 
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