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capps

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Yes ... I'm back to Fleet.

We all know that after JB was discovered in the cellar,FW ran to the phone,punched in a few numbers,hung up,and then yelled for someone to call 911. That in itself seems a little odd,since Det.Arndt was standing right there ... but no matter ... I'm chalking that up to shock in finding JB's body.While I was looking around in ACR site,I found this excerpt from ST's book,pg 28:
"Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door. Instead, White ran back down into the little cellar room, picked up the black tape, and stared at it. By doing so, White unknowingly mishandled a critical piece of evidence."

This is the first time I've been made aware of this.First off ... FW was never good at listening to authorities,was he? Secondly,why did he do this? Why the intense interest in the tape? (Which by the way,JR said was black,but the crimescene photos show silver tape.) Thirdly,who would have witnessed this,since everyone was upstairs dealing with the discovery of JB's dead body?So how did this story originate?

I have another question,(no,not Fleet this time),but I will start another thread on that some other time.
 
capps said:
Yes ... I'm back to Fleet.

We all know that after JB was discovered in the cellar,FW ran to the phone,punched in a few numbers,hung up,and then yelled for someone to call 911. That in itself seems a little odd,since Det.Arndt was standing right there ... but no matter ... I'm chalking that up to shock in finding JB's body.While I was looking around in ACR site,I found this excerpt from ST's book,pg 28:
"Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door. Instead, White ran back down into the little cellar room, picked up the black tape, and stared at it. By doing so, White unknowingly mishandled a critical piece of evidence."

This is the first time I've been made aware of this.First off ... FW was never good at listening to authorities,was he? Secondly,why did he do this? Why the intense interest in the tape? (Which by the way,JR said was black,but the crimescene photos show silver tape.) Thirdly,who would have witnessed this,since everyone was upstairs dealing with the discovery of JB's dead body?So how did this story originate?

I have another question,(no,not Fleet this time),but I will start another thread on that some other time.
Click to expand...
It always amused and exasperated me that when ST writes, everything the Ramseys do is diabolically premeditated but when it comes to Fleet - he "unknowingly" blunders through a crime scene (after being told to guard it), he "unknowingly" moves evidence. Poor man is just a high-strung race-horse.
 
capps said:
Yes ... I'm back to Fleet.

We all know that after JB was discovered in the cellar,FW ran to the phone,punched in a few numbers,hung up,and then yelled for someone to call 911. That in itself seems a little odd,since Det.Arndt was standing right there ... but no matter ... I'm chalking that up to shock in finding JB's body.While I was looking around in ACR site,I found this excerpt from ST's book,pg 28:
"Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door. Instead, White ran back down into the little cellar room, picked up the black tape, and stared at it. By doing so, White unknowingly mishandled a critical piece of evidence."

This is the first time I've been made aware of this.First off ... FW was never good at listening to authorities,was he? Secondly,why did he do this? Why the intense interest in the tape? (Which by the way,JR said was black,but the crimescene photos show silver tape.) Thirdly,who would have witnessed this,since everyone was upstairs dealing with the discovery of JB's dead body?So how did this story originate?

I have another question,(no,not Fleet this time),but I will start another thread on that some other time.
Click to expand...
Maybe he just was confused as to which basement door Ardnt was reffering to. Who was he garding the door from anyway?

This whole thing is so sad when you think about it. Really with a whole police force at her disposal Ardnt is reduced to sending family members to search a crime scene for evidence and have family friends gard evidence and doors. Where are the cops? Getting lunch? Did they get bored? Shift was over?
 
Zman said:
Maybe he just was confused as to which basement door Ardnt was reffering to. Who was he garding the door from anyway?

This whole thing is so sad when you think about it. Really with a whole police force at her disposal Ardnt is reduced to sending family members to search a crime scene for evidence and have family friends gard evidence and doors. Where are the cops? Getting lunch? Did they get bored? Shift was over?
Click to expand...


Welllllllllllll, it was the 'morning' after Christmas, a skelton crew at that hour.

PLUS, LACK of experience in KIDNAPPINGS by the folks who lived in the 'Perfect Murder, Perfect Town'!

I am thinking that maybe this was the FIRST KIDNAPPING EVER TO HAVE HAPPENED IN Boulder. I have lived here since 1949, and donut remember another one every HAPPENING.

Most likely no manual was ever prepared for LE covering "10 easy TO DO steps for handling a KIDNAPPING."




.
 
Since we're talking about Det.Arndt,I found this at the ACR site.It's an excerpt from the Sept.1999 interview Arndt gave on the Today Show,that leaves me with more questions,than answers:

(VO) Arndt says she suggested that John Ramsey and Fleet White search the house; an instruction for which she would later be strongly criticized. She said she told them to...
Arndt: ...check the house, top to bottom. Look for anything that might belong to JonBenét that is in a place where you don't, shouldn't, where it shouldn't be. Even if it's a, a box, box of matches, anything. Leave it and come see me.
Vargus: Don't touch it
Arndt: Right
"(VO) It was now 1:01pm

Arndt: I heard a noise, then I heard, I heard (him?) softly run to the phone in the den and he was crouched and I saw him dial 3 numbers, hang up the phone, yell 'we need an ambulance,' and then he ran back towards the front of the house.
And I see John Ramsey carrying JonBenét up the last three steps from the basement. And, um, and my mind exploded. I mean it literally, I saw black with thousands of lights. And everything that I had noted that morning that stuck out, instantly made sense. (pause, sigh) And JonBenét was clearly dead. And she's been dead for a while. I knelt next to her and I leaned down to her face. And John leaned down opposite me, and um, his face was just inches from mine...(pause, breath) and we had, um, a nonverbal exchange that I will never forget. And he asked if she was dead. And I said yes, she's dead. And I told him to go back to the room and to dial 911. And as we looked at each other, I remember, and I wore a shoulder holster; tucking my gun right next to me and consciously counting I've got 18 bullets.

Vargus: Why did you do that?
Arndt: 'Cause I didn't know if we'd all be alive if people showed up.

Vargus: What do you mean?
Arndt: I decided that everything made sense in that instance. And, um, I knew what happened. I mean that's, I knew what happened to her"

My questions:
What happened so dramatically,from the time she asked JR to check the house,until JR laid JB's body on the floor? She doesn't say.

What happened at this point, to make her feel that JR was not only guilty of killing JB,but now thinks he's dangerous,to the point of checking how many bullets she has in her gun? She doesn't say.

She claims she didn't know if they would all be alive if other people showed up. What other people? She doesn't say.

She claims,that everything at that instance made sense,and she knew what happened to JB. What is the "everything" that made sense? She doesn't say.

I'm not saying that Det. Arndt wasn't in a very hard position,she was.She should have had back up.But from what I'm getting from this inerview,is a lot of unaswered questions,but more importantly,I see a detective,within an instance,decide who the killer is.

Doesn't sound very "neutral" to me.I'm sure she treated JR very differently after that.I'm sure JR noticed.

No wonder he called his lawyer.
 
Camper said:
[...]
Most likely no manual was ever prepared for LE covering "10 easy TO DO steps for handling a KIDNAPPING."




.
Click to expand...
There was a manual.

PMPT pp.9-10 "Sgt. Whitson knew Harmer had a copy of the Bureau's manual on procedures to follow in a kidnapping case, but he had no idea where she kept it. More than a year after the Boulder PD had sent Detective Harmer to the seminar, the department had not officially adopted the FBI protocol. They saw no need to make the agency's recommendations part of their own procedures."
 
capps said:
Since we're talking about Det.Arndt,I found this at the ACR site.It's an excerpt from the Sept.1999 interview Arndt gave on the Today Show,that leaves me with more questions,than answers:

(VO) Arndt says she suggested that John Ramsey and Fleet White search the house; an instruction for which she would later be strongly criticized. She said she told them to...
Arndt: ...check the house, top to bottom. Look for anything that might belong to JonBenét that is in a place where you don't, shouldn't, where it shouldn't be. Even if it's a, a box, box of matches, anything. Leave it and come see me.
Vargus: Don't touch it
Arndt: Right
"(VO) It was now 1:01pm

Arndt: I heard a noise, then I heard, I heard (him?) softly run to the phone in the den and he was crouched and I saw him dial 3 numbers, hang up the phone, yell 'we need an ambulance,' and then he ran back towards the front of the house.
And I see John Ramsey carrying JonBenét up the last three steps from the basement. And, um, and my mind exploded. I mean it literally, I saw black with thousands of lights. And everything that I had noted that morning that stuck out, instantly made sense. (pause, sigh) And JonBenét was clearly dead. And she's been dead for a while. I knelt next to her and I leaned down to her face. And John leaned down opposite me, and um, his face was just inches from mine...(pause, breath) and we had, um, a nonverbal exchange that I will never forget. And he asked if she was dead. And I said yes, she's dead. And I told him to go back to the room and to dial 911. And as we looked at each other, I remember, and I wore a shoulder holster; tucking my gun right next to me and consciously counting I've got 18 bullets.

Vargus: Why did you do that?
Arndt: 'Cause I didn't know if we'd all be alive if people showed up.

Vargus: What do you mean?
Arndt: I decided that everything made sense in that instance. And, um, I knew what happened. I mean that's, I knew what happened to her"

My questions:
What happened so dramatically,from the time she asked JR to check the house,until JR laid JB's body on the floor? She doesn't say.

What happened at this point, to make her feel that JR was not only guilty of killing JB,but now thinks he's dangerous,to the point of checking how many bullets she has in her gun? She doesn't say.

She claims she didn't know if they would all be alive if other people showed up. What other people? She doesn't say.

She claims,that everything at that instance made sense,and she knew what happened to JB. What is the "everything" that made sense? She doesn't say.

I'm not saying that Det. Arndt wasn't in a very hard position,she was.She should have had back up.But from what I'm getting from this inerview,is a lot of unaswered questions,but more importantly,I see a detective,within an instance,decide who the killer is.

Doesn't sound very "neutral" to me.I'm sure she treated JR very differently after that.I'm sure JR noticed.

No wonder he called his lawyer.
Click to expand...
Lets remember JR did not call a lawyer. A family friend steped in and asked JR to let him do what he thought needed to be done. Why? Because he saw a dective(s) who in a instant, decided who the killer was.
 
http://www.angelfire.com/ar3/jonbenet/1998ae.html

Man: While the Ramseys were being cared for by friends, their home became a major crime scene. Few of the police here had ever handled a murder before but they immediately assumed the parents were involved. The fact that JonBenet was found in her own home by her father was considered damning. By the time her body was taken from the house that evening, some of the suspicion had been passed to a local journalist. The tragedy of the murder was about to enter a new phase.

Man: Friday, Dec. 27th, while police activity at the house intensified, in nearby Denver a local newspaper ran the first story hinting police suspicion about the Ramseys. They quoted an assistant District Attorney saying it was very unusual for the kidnap victims body to be found at home. It's not adding up he said. Reporter Charlie Brennen said he knew from the beginning the parents were the only real suspects.

Charlie Brennen: I had that sense at that time, I had that sense at that time, yes. I had the belief that the police were under a strong suspicion from the very beginning that it had to be the parents.

Man: A local television reporter who also covered the story on the 27th gave the same conclusion.

Julie Hayden, TV Reporter: Early on there, definitely before the five o'clock newscast, we were beginning to get the sense that the police were not hunting Boulder for some mad kidnapper – That the police were looking more inside the family.

Man: From now on, a clear pattern was to emerge. While police chief Tom Koby said little, others continually leaked information and often it was misleading information intended to implicate the Ramseys. The pattern began that day. A story was leaked that suggested ONLY a family member could have

CBrennen: I had a trusted law enforcement source tell me the first officers there noted that it was rather strange, they thought, that there were NO footprints in the snow outside and this is a source that has been infallible in my experience.

Man: The Ramseys, now under police protection, were unaware of the mounting pressure but an attorney friend was already concerned.

Mike Bynum: I showed up as John and Patsy's friend although I was not initially thinking in terms of what help I should give them legally, I don't know what to say other than I sensed some things. The police going around the house, I just had a sense that they ought to have representation and I just said to John, will you trust me to do the right thing? He just said, yes I'll trust you.

John: And I had no idea what he was talking about. Later, I don't remember if it was later that day or the next day, he said we're going to retain councel for you and for Patsy. What in the world for - OK - We began to realize we're suspects and I was OK with that because I assumed it was a broad investigation.

Man: By the following day, Dec 28th, police and media were closing on the Ramseys. That morning, Denver's Rocky Mountain News, intimated they were suspects. The story introduced the issue there were no footprints in the snow which began the first part of the media's case against the Ramseys - That no one else got into the house.

CBrennen: When police first arrived, at least one officer noted, thought it was worth noting in his report, strange - no footprints.

Man: The absence of tracks in the snow was later reported as one of the first clues that led police to suspect members of the family. Soon, another story appeared -- There had been no break-in. Charlie Brennen covered that too.

CBrennen: That was coming from sources, and you know, I know that you know this is a story that was heavily reported through unnamed sources and I'm not going to name the source now but law enforcement was telling us from December that they saw no signs of forced entry.


[...]
 
Zman said:
Lets remember JR did not call a lawyer. A family friend steped in and asked JR to let him do what he thought needed to be done. Why? Because he saw a dective(s) who in a instant, decided who the killer was.
Click to expand...
The family friend WAS a lawyer. It was Mike Bynum.
 
Fleet was really interested in that tape for some reason...maybe it looked familiar to him. Perhaps he saw the tape in one of the boats John owned...

The rules surrounding kidnapping is that your base of operations be away from the home...as in BPHeadquarters. That is where the FBI was. Linda Arndt was the only officer at the Ramseys and that is the rule.
 
Just for curiosity sake,I would like to hear Patricia White and Glenn Stine's take on this case. Without their spouses' present.
 
Jayelles said:
The family friend WAS a lawyer. It was Mike Bynum.
Click to expand...
Yes "well to do" people quite often have lawyers as friends. But it's quite clear that Bynum offered to help JR not the other way around.

And just for the record I think all those people who say they don't need a lawyer because they didn't do it are really stupid.

The innocent need protection not the guilty.

Do you assume that just because a person does not retain counsel he is obviously innocent of the crime?
 
Fleet was really interested in that tape for some reason...maybe it looked familiar to him. Perhaps he saw the tape in one of the boats John owned...

Toltec,

I don't think so,how familiar can duct tape be?

But I do wonder why,just moments after finding JB's body,a very emotional time,he was compelled to pick up the duct tape,of all things,and stare at it?Seems odd to me. But Fleet is odd to me any way.
 
Arndt: I heard a noise, then I heard, I heard (him?) softly run to the phone in the den and he was crouched and I saw him dial 3 numbers, hang up the phone,


Isn't this similar to what happened the night of the Christmas party on the 23rd when he "accidently" dialed 911? Wierd that Fleet seems to always hang up on 911.
 
trixie said:
Arndt: I heard a noise, then I heard, I heard (him?) softly run to the phone in the den and he was crouched and I saw him dial 3 numbers, hang up the phone,


Isn't this similar to what happened the night of the Christmas party on the 23rd when he "accidently" dialed 911? Wierd that Fleet seems to always hang up on 911.
Click to expand...

I never connected the two ... good sleuthing trixie!!
 
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