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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by human
    Do you mean that this person drove waaaaay down a long driveway looking for kids down the driveway?

    Or do you mean they were driving down the road and for some weird reason went down DR's driveway instead of driving to Kiwi Court?
    I think StinkSprings is referring to an account chronicled on Joy's blog:

    Second, here’s another tidbit I’ve mentioned once before. At the time of Jacob’s abduction, there was another boy who lived on 91st Avenue, who felt maybe he had been the intended target of the abduction that night instead of Jacob. He was 14 years old at the time, and unlike Jacob who had never been allowed to go to the store before after dark, this boy and his 12 year old friend had spent nearly every night that summer going to the Tom Thumb after dark.

    Here’s his story. One night, he and his 12 year old friend were coming home from the Tom Thumb, maybe around midnight. They were on Baker Street and were taking a left onto 91st Avenue, when a car came from behind them and suddenly started coming faster and faster. As they got closer to the 12 year old’s house, they cut through the ditch, across his front yard, and into the open garage as fast as they could. The car followed them into the driveway, then backed straight across the road into the neighbor’s driveway, and flashed its bright lights on the two boys. The car stayed like that for about two minutes before the boys finally ran into the house.

    A couple weeks later, the boys got brave and decided to head to the Tom Thumb once again. It was late, and this time, they noticed a car going from mailbox to mailbox… very slowly… like he was getting information from each residence.

    The boys remembered the car looking similar to a Pontiac 6000, but they disagreed on the color… one said blue, the other said red. For this reason, they felt like maybe they weren’t believed when they told their story to the police just few days after Jacob was abducted.
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 08:29 PM. Reason: snipped quote link
    What do we think? What do we know? What can we prove?

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 777 View Post
    There is no doubt this is an organized crime - but I mean that in the criminal profiler sense...the sense that Ressler or Douglas would use....which is to contrast it to a disorganized crime. In other words, the person who committed the offense had a certain degree of planning and forethought, likely had an escape plan in place, had props (mask, gun) ready and effected an abduction that was anything but sloppy.

    ***This person has done this before.***
    ***This person is not insane and he is able to control himself effectively.***

    But I don't like talk of conspiracies and I discount the possibility or even the existence of an active sex trade - if anything this implies 3 boys would be hitting the jackpot. He only takes one boy because that's all he needs and that's all he can handle. ***Importantly, he doesn't murder the other two boys when in fact most serial criminals kill less for the kill of thrilling and more because they have to eliminate a witness to their hideous deeds.***

    However, there are some aspects we would normally consider disorganized - like leaving two witnesses. I'm not so sure an abduction on this road is as low risk as it seems at first, and higher risk crimes speak of a disorganized mind.



    Given that Jacob's footprints and scent disappear a short walk off the road in what now seems a good place to stash a car, any talk that a car wasn't used is swimming upstream to the evidence.



    That would make sense.



    But we're left with who would be on this road at 10pm on a Sunday night. The best answer is someone who has an otherwise unremarkable reason for being on the road - they live there or are visiting friends/family there.

    I think it is unlikely and therefore of questionable value for us to consider that a random boy-abductor randomly wandered onto this street and luckily found 3 helpless boys. Anyway, if it's that random there is no hope in us finding him. We must assume it is someone with a reason to be there besides looking for boys - if boys is what you want there are far more fruitful places to look than here.




    Your second point is most prescient - if this criminal is truly not connected to the community in any way, we may as well shut down the threads because that opens up every male sex offender in the country as a suspect. In order for amateurs like us to make this work, we have to establish a connection somewhere - to previous crimes, to known persons, to specific places, to known cars and so forth.




    777
    777 I disagree. This very well could be a sex trade kidnapping. Please do not totally discount this theory. To do so would be ludicrous. The perp saw a picture of Jacob on a horse at the farm where a pedophile monk's family owns the ranch and decided he wanted the "wholesome boy next door" (please see older threads for the name of the ranch and the family). The group paid thousands of dollars for people to kidnap certain boys for rich pedos who wanted this type of boy. They also kidnapped kids for prostitution in TX, CA and NY. They would force the boys into prostitution, catch them in the act and take pictures. They would blackmail several thousands of dollars from the victims. It is easier to kidnap and intimidate one boy at a time. He looked at their faces and knew Jacob's age. I have rumor that Jacob was taken for this purpose. The group was most active in the 1960s when homosexuality was illegal. They were so profitable, it continued through the 70s and early '80s. No hard proof of the group taking Jacob, but I have proof it was being done. Please read these articles:
    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/h...he_1960s_.html

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...7EBKS4vUa3aJiQ
    Children are our future. Treat them with respect, love and care.

  3. #18
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    I rewatched the Current Affair episode from 1989. The show noted the boys were walking their bikes back. There's also an interview with Aaron on 91st where he points at the ditch and off towards the woods. Does anyone have a frame of reference as to what woods he was pointing at? You would think the perp would want to send them off in a direction that was opposite of where he would be leaving from.

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jbrown324320 View Post
    777 I disagree. This very well could be a sex trade kidnapping. Please do not totally discount this theory. To do so would be ludicrous. The perp saw a picture of Jacob on a horse at the farm where a pedophile monk's family owns the ranch and decided he wanted the "wholesome boy next door" (please see older threads for the name of the ranch and the family). The group paid thousands of dollars for people to kidnap certain boys for rich pedos who wanted this type of boy. They also kidnapped kids for prostitution in TX, CA and NY. They would force the boys into prostitution, catch them in the act and take pictures. They would blackmail several thousands of dollars from the victims. It is easier to kidnap and intimidate one boy at a time. He looked at their faces and knew Jacob's age. I have rumor that Jacob was taken for this purpose. The group was most active in the 1960s when homosexuality was illegal. They were so profitable, it continued through the 70s and early '80s. No hard proof of the group taking Jacob, but I have proof it was being done. Please read these articles:
    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/h...he_1960s_.html

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...7EBKS4vUa3aJiQ
    There are 25-50 child sex abuse survivors who have come forward against St. Johns. None of them have mention that this was occurring. It is clear that other pedophiles were operating with success given the number of predators in the city.

    I know that movement gained prominence with Johny Gosch's mother from Iowa, bur I don't think you can discount the fact that people from the area did not report it happening--esp given that they know feel enough courage to report that they were victims.

  5. #20
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    I think these boys were runaways or vulnerable boys who had no positive male figure in their lives. Not boys who had rich lives doing activities such as football, fishing, and hockey with their farhers.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by human View Post
    Re the Monte Carlo in the afternoon.

    Can anyone explain why a car looking to abduct children would go down a driveway where no children live?

    Why would they return ?
    From the People magazine article posted up thread by Bessie:

    http://www.people.com/people/archive...115979,00.html

    Patty Wetterling, 40, and her husband, Jerry, 41, were at a party when the boys called to ask if they could make the one-mile trip to the store, and Patty wasn't going to let them do it. "But then they called back," Patty remembers, "and Jerry said they could if they wore reflective clothing, carried a flashlight and all stayed together. We thought we were protecting them from everything."
    Is it possible someone at the party overheard Patty and Jerry discussing the boys' trip and left the party or even contacted a friend to abduct one of the boys?

    This has probably been discussed many times--I follow Jacob's thread, but have not read every post.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaplain1 View Post
    There are 25-50 child sex abuse survivors who have come forward against St. Johns. None of them have mention that this was occurring. It is clear that other pedophiles were operating with success given the number of predators in the city.

    I know that movement gained prominence with Johny Gosch's mother from Iowa, bur I don't think you can discount the fact that people from the area did not report it happening--esp given that they know feel enough courage to report that they were victims.

    That is because back in 1989 the police didn't believe parents when they said their child was missing. They automatically labled them as runaways unless there was proof of a kidnapping. Yes, usually the kidnapping group used runaways and provided them with drugs and told them their parents would never love them again. But if they had a "special order", they usually went to a city or state that hadn't had a kidnapping in a while not to raise suspicion. Of course the people who were abused by priests didn't know about this. Highly doubtful they would talk about it. Two different groups. Never discount this theory. Please read the articles. It happened.
    Children are our future. Treat them with respect, love and care.

  8. #23
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    Sutton, I tried to connect a priest counselor who had supplied childrent to St Johns priests in the past to the party, but was unsuccessful without emailing PW directly. He may have attended or hosted the party P and J W attended. Please see this page: http://www.behindthepinecurtain.com/...ted-to-it-all/.
    Children are our future. Treat them with respect, love and care.

  9. #24
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    Jul 2014
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    Sutton, I have asked the same question before too. I drove by the abduction site on Sunday. Drove the route the boys took. It was helpful because I had been off on the surroundings when trying to imagine it before. It had to be either someone who lived locally driving by (who randomly had a gun and mask looking for a victim ) or DR, someone at DR's house, someone who saw them at Tom Thumb and found them on way back, or someone who knew they would be riding bikes that way. However if someone was at party and left the party to get them, again, they would have had to have a mask and gun available. I would still suspect MB/LK, or DR or someone in the neighborhood. No passerby would randomly be on that road. Way too far off the 94. (I had always pictured the Tom thumb right off the exit from 94, but that's not so).

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jbrown324320 View Post
    That is because back in 1989 the police didn't believe parents when they said their child was missing. They automatically labled them as runaways unless there was proof of a kidnapping. Yes, usually the kidnapping group used runaways and provided them with drugs and told them their parents would never love them again. But if they had a "special order", they usually went to a city or state that hadn't had a kidnapping in a while not to raise suspicion. Of course the people who were abused by priests didn't know about this. Highly doubtful they would talk about it. Two different groups. Never discount this theory. Please read the articles. It happened.
    I don't discount it, there just isn't any proof it was occurring in Stearns County.


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzipan View Post
    Totally agree, with the exception of the big ballroom (what's that place called?) with the polka festival going on. That had to bring people in. People who knew DR and Hollinger, and all kinds of others. Right? Or maybe someone can correct me. It's been awhile since we've discussed that place and what was going on there that night. I know we talked about some others in the bands with DR too. There was that one guy who's wife thought he was having an affair with DR and killed him...IIRC???


    Here's a pic of the flyer for the Del-Win Ballroom for Oct. 22nd, 1989. It lists the bands that were playing.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifermn View Post


    Here's a pic of the flyer for the Del-Win Ballroom for Oct. 22nd, 1989. It lists the bands that were playing.
    While that is a flyer from the Del-Win, I think those bands played the week before. According to ELOC's book (on page 51) These bands played the night of the polka fest:

    "In fact, radio station KASM sponsored a Polka music festival at the Del-Win, just a few blocks away from the Tom Thumb store, from 1:00 P.M - 10:00 P.M. on Sunday October 22, 1989, featuring The Nite Owls, Play Mor, The Honey Bee's, and Johnny Helget." (It Can't Happen Here, pg. 51)

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by StinkSprings View Post
    ....

    Do we have a hard number for how many houses existed beyond the Rassier driveway? Do we know where these two cars passed the boys? Could one have been Kevin? Could one have been MF? .
    As for houses beyond the abduction scene, not many. Maybe 15 or 20?

    MF spotting the boys on the road and pulling a quick abduction by pulling in the nearest driveway makes the most sense to me of any scenario I've heard. No hard-to-believe assumptions needed to make this work. He's already admitted being there. Where there's smoke there's fire.



    777

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbrown324320 View Post
    777 I disagree. This very well could be a sex trade kidnapping. Please do not totally discount this theory...
    Ok, I hear you. Let's keep all plausible ideas open.

    Criminal conspiracies are just very rare. Furthermore, if they're specifically targeting Jacob hanging around the neighborhood after dark on a Sunday night is no way to get at him.

    This is someone who saw Jacob that night and made a quick decision to grab him.

    Quote Originally Posted by StinkSprings View Post
    I rewatched the Current Affair episode from 1989. The show noted the boys were walking their bikes back. There's also an interview with Aaron on 91st where he points at the ditch and off towards the woods. Does anyone have a frame of reference as to what woods he was pointing at? You would think the perp would want to send them off in a direction that was opposite of where he would be leaving from.
    Yes.

    It's the woods towards the West of the road. Across the field. The abductor's familiarity with the woods is noteworthy. Kevin, for instance, is very familiar with the woods in this neighborhood as he admits to previously riding around on bike trails and going to various party spots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sutton View Post
    Is it possible someone at the party overheard Patty and Jerry discussing the boys' trip and left the party or even contacted a friend to abduct one of the boys?

    This has probably been discussed many times--I follow Jacob's thread, but have not read every post.
    I think it's very possible that someone who knew Jacob's parents would be gone this night took Jacob. It's just too odd to be in the neighborhood that night unless you knew before hand Jacob would be vulnerable OR you had an otherwise 'normal' reason for being on that road that night.

    BTW, one of the reasons the Wetterling thread was split into sub-threads is to make it more accessible, especially to newcomers and especially to those who don't have a couple weeks to read through all the previous posts. Please don't worry that something has been discussed before. Probably the police have discussed the criminal before yet he is not in jail.

    Quote Originally Posted by chaplain1 View Post
    I don't discount it, there just isn't any proof it was occurring in Stearns County.
    I tend to agree with you. There is a tendency to connect crimes where there is no evidence in place to connect them. If there is a lack of evidence for conspiracy, I say we must assume this is a much more typical loner-sex-offender.



    777

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 777 View Post
    Ok, I hear you. Let's keep all plausible ideas open.

    Criminal conspiracies are just very rare. Furthermore, if they're specifically targeting Jacob hanging around the neighborhood after dark on a Sunday night is no way to get at him.

    This is someone who saw Jacob that night and made a quick decision to grab him.



    Yes.

    It's the woods towards the West of the road. Across the field. The abductor's familiarity with the woods is noteworthy. Kevin, for instance, is very familiar with the woods in this neighborhood as he admits to previously riding around on bike trails and going to various party spots.


    I think it's very possible that someone who knew Jacob's parents would be gone this night took Jacob. It's just too odd to be in the neighborhood that night unless you knew before hand Jacob would be vulnerable OR you had an otherwise 'normal' reason for being on that road that night.

    BTW, one of the reasons the Wetterling thread was split into sub-threads is to make it more accessible, especially to newcomers and especially to those who don't have a couple weeks to read through all the previous posts. Please don't worry that something has been discussed before. Probably the police have discussed the criminal before yet he is not in jail.



    I tend to agree with you. There is a tendency to connect crimes where there is no evidence in place to connect them. If there is a lack of evidence for conspiracy, I say we must assume this is a much more typical loner-sex-offender.



    777
    How would anyone know his parents WOULD be gone that night. Even they did not know. It was a last minute decision.

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