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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by human View Post
    I don't think there is room on the driveway to turn like that and where are the other set of tires?

    And duh! What about the light pole? Was it a LIGHT or a telephone pole?

    If a light, there would be plenty of light in that spot.

    As far as the tires, they are 1989, not 50-60's. They are probably not bias ply but radial--- the girlfriend's tires.
    If you look at my marked up picture and think about tire construction. Up to the late 60's, the internal belts in the tire were wrapped in the direction of the tread, then they started wrapping them in what would become the radial pattern moving into more exotic materials until they started using steel mesh belts. The tire prints in the picture are a tall narrow bias tire as a radial, even an early one would have had very rounded edges as the tires "bulge" more. From what I can see in the picture I posted, they are not radials. The edge is too sharp.
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 07:27 PM. Reason: corrected quote link
    Unless otherwise noted, my posts are opinions or theories only and may not be used outside of WS unless permission is requested in advance.
    Any general subject matter photographs posted by me are solely to give other WS members an "on the ground" frame of reference of satellite views and are visible to anyone from public roads and access points. They may not be used outside of WS unless permission is requested in advance

    Please help find Lauren Jackson Missing since 1988 Spring City PA

    Pennsylvania Missing Persons Cases:
    Lauren Jackson, Amanda DeGuio, Ray Gricar, Kortne Stouffer, Jamie Metzger, Toni Sharpless, Anna Maciejewska

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by human View Post
    I don't think there is room on the driveway to turn like that and where are the other set of tires?

    And duh! What about the light pole? Was it a LIGHT or a telephone pole?

    If a light, there would be plenty of light in that spot.

    As far as the tires, they are 1989, not 50-60's. They are probably not bias ply but radial--- the girlfriend's tires.
    Isn't there a tire track shown in a curving line on the pic? My point was if the perp and Jacob were in the ditch then an accomplice in a car would veer out a ways so the perp could walk up the ditch onto the gravel and force him into the vehicle.

    Pole...assumed it was a telephone pole....simply alluding to the mixup of the
    2nd pole and the distance to the end of the footprints. I doubt the pole had a light on it....have never read anything like that. It is interesting though...wonder why that original first pole was removed yet other poles remain?
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 07:27 PM. Reason: corrected quote link

  3. #48
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    If you look at post 1019 in the last thread (picture of detective spraying prints) and you change the contrast, it almost looks like there is a trail of prints going behind him, and looking at the top view Google pictures some of you have posted, would that not take them towards a driveway? Little hard to get my bearing without being on site.
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 07:29 PM. Reason: corrected post number
    Unless otherwise noted, my posts are opinions or theories only and may not be used outside of WS unless permission is requested in advance.
    Any general subject matter photographs posted by me are solely to give other WS members an "on the ground" frame of reference of satellite views and are visible to anyone from public roads and access points. They may not be used outside of WS unless permission is requested in advance

    Please help find Lauren Jackson Missing since 1988 Spring City PA

    Pennsylvania Missing Persons Cases:
    Lauren Jackson, Amanda DeGuio, Ray Gricar, Kortne Stouffer, Jamie Metzger, Toni Sharpless, Anna Maciejewska

  4. #49
    ELOCsoul's Avatar
    ELOCsoul is offline Verified Author - "Finding Jacob Wetterling"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackergd;
    If you look at post 1019 in the last thread (picture of detective spraying prints) and you change the contrast, it almost looks like there is a trail of prints going behind him, and looking at the top view Google pictures some of you have posted, would that not take them towards a driveway? Little hard to get my bearing without being on site.
    No there is not another driveway there, just a grassy area and woods to the north, and a field to the south (behind the detective in the photo). See attached picture. I believe Jacob's prints ended at about where the power pole is.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 07:28 PM. Reason: corrected post number

  5. #50
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    Further data on the tire tracks

    Attached is a picture showing why I think the tire was bias ply.

    The tire on the left is a bias ply with a high rib pattern.

    The tire on the right is a radial with bias belts.

    Look at the rounded edges of the radial and then the high rib of the bias ply.

    Now look at the picture I posted with the arrows in it.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Unless otherwise noted, my posts are opinions or theories only and may not be used outside of WS unless permission is requested in advance.
    Any general subject matter photographs posted by me are solely to give other WS members an "on the ground" frame of reference of satellite views and are visible to anyone from public roads and access points. They may not be used outside of WS unless permission is requested in advance

    Please help find Lauren Jackson Missing since 1988 Spring City PA

    Pennsylvania Missing Persons Cases:
    Lauren Jackson, Amanda DeGuio, Ray Gricar, Kortne Stouffer, Jamie Metzger, Toni Sharpless, Anna Maciejewska

  6. #51
    ELOCsoul's Avatar
    ELOCsoul is offline Verified Author - "Finding Jacob Wetterling"
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    Trackergd
    SAR Search Manager

    Join Date: Jul 2013
    Location: S.E. Pennsylvania
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    Initial Print Analysis:
    Yellow: Tire Prints - Narrow bias ply ribbed tire pattern
    Light weight or smaller vehicle. Defined sharp edge.

    Red: Not sure about these - Unknown disturbances if no other
    pictures are available.

    Blue: Larger prints with force - Heel digs? Mounding on sides
    Very deep with force. Cannot tell if sole pattern is like green.

    Green: Shallow prints - flat with little force or mounding
    No defined pattern - Flat sole shoe?

    Red W/Yellow: Great pattern prints - flat bottom rib pattern
    Commonly called a "crepe" sole
    LE should have been able to tell if these were Jacobs or a perp

    Jumble of prints with a tire track. "Appears" to be more than one person and some on top of others. Cannot tell if red marked disturbances are prints that were run over or disturbances caused by stones that caused mounding by weight of car.
    Attached Thumbnails


    Tracker,

    Take a look at the picture of the footprints again, something I noticed to help orientation. Notice the shadows on the far side of the deeper prints? The camera angle is facing mostly south, a little southwest. The prints seem to veer toward the bottom of the picture at this point - towards the fence that is along the driveway.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/att...8&d=1380809058

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELOCsoul View Post

    Trackergd
    SAR Search Manager

    Join Date: Jul 2013
    Location: S.E. Pennsylvania
    Posts: 467
    Initial Print Analysis:
    Yellow: Tire Prints - Narrow bias ply ribbed tire pattern
    Light weight or smaller vehicle. Defined sharp edge.

    Red: Not sure about these - Unknown disturbances if no other
    pictures are available.

    Blue: Larger prints with force - Heel digs? Mounding on sides
    Very deep with force. Cannot tell if sole pattern is like green.

    Green: Shallow prints - flat with little force or mounding
    No defined pattern - Flat sole shoe?

    Red W/Yellow: Great pattern prints - flat bottom rib pattern
    Commonly called a "crepe" sole
    LE should have been able to tell if these were Jacobs or a perp

    Jumble of prints with a tire track. "Appears" to be more than one person and some on top of others. Cannot tell if red marked disturbances are prints that were run over or disturbances caused by stones that caused mounding by weight of car.
    Attached Thumbnails


    Tracker,

    Take a look at the picture of the footprints again, something I noticed to help orientation. Notice the shadows on the far side of the deeper prints? The camera angle is facing mostly south, a little southwest. The prints seem to veer toward the bottom of the picture at this point - towards the fence that is along the driveway.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/att...8&d=1380809058
    ELOCsoul....your observation is VERY profound. I have had to go back + forth studying your statement as well as the photograph. I had always looked at that photo assuming that the fenceline was on the top(north) of the picture....however, your comment that the photographer is actually facing southwest based upon shadowlines turns the mind 180 degrees! If this is the case, THEN: the footprints are leading NE to the farmstead(DR dragging Jacob) OR the perp with Jacob in tow stops, then turns, forcing Jacob into the vehicle that is facing west. I simply cannot tell by the photograph what the footprints are 'saying'. I notice the horizontal striations(perpendicular to the length of the shoe) of 2 footprints(assuming they are the same footprint)....one facing east and the other facing southwest....could be the perp forcing Jacob into the vehicle. (Perp + Jacob) Walking from the west, heading east, upon reaching the vehicle their footprints abruptly change direction as the vehicle is facing west. A 180 degree if you will...to enter the vehicle. However, if DR was dragging Jacob east and there was resistance, then this would explain the confluence of footprints...he(DR) would have carried Jacob beyond this point. I don't know which scenario governs....but your observation of the footprints is enlightening.
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 07:30 PM. Reason: corrected quote link

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELOCsoul View Post

    Trackergd
    SAR Search Manager

    Join Date: Jul 2013
    Location: S.E. Pennsylvania
    Posts: 467
    Initial Print Analysis:
    Yellow: Tire Prints - Narrow bias ply ribbed tire pattern
    Light weight or smaller vehicle. Defined sharp edge.

    Red: Not sure about these - Unknown disturbances if no other
    pictures are available.

    Blue: Larger prints with force - Heel digs? Mounding on sides
    Very deep with force. Cannot tell if sole pattern is like green.

    Green: Shallow prints - flat with little force or mounding
    No defined pattern - Flat sole shoe?

    Red W/Yellow: Great pattern prints - flat bottom rib pattern
    Commonly called a "crepe" sole
    LE should have been able to tell if these were Jacobs or a perp

    Jumble of prints with a tire track. "Appears" to be more than one person and some on top of others. Cannot tell if red marked disturbances are prints that were run over or disturbances caused by stones that caused mounding by weight of car.
    Attached Thumbnails


    Tracker,

    Take a look at the picture of the footprints again, something I noticed to help orientation. Notice the shadows on the far side of the deeper prints? The camera angle is facing mostly south, a little southwest. The prints seem to veer toward the bottom of the picture at this point - towards the fence that is along the driveway.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/att...8&d=1380809058
    I agree.

    I could not figure out what the prints were that have the blue arrows, even tried to reproduce them.... The light bulb just went on... horse shoe prints. As the photo was not from above, but on a low angle, I was not seeing them for what they are. The looked like heal prints.....

    Bottom line... Contaminated Crime Scene
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 07:56 PM. Reason: quote link
    Unless otherwise noted, my posts are opinions or theories only and may not be used outside of WS unless permission is requested in advance.
    Any general subject matter photographs posted by me are solely to give other WS members an "on the ground" frame of reference of satellite views and are visible to anyone from public roads and access points. They may not be used outside of WS unless permission is requested in advance

    Please help find Lauren Jackson Missing since 1988 Spring City PA

    Pennsylvania Missing Persons Cases:
    Lauren Jackson, Amanda DeGuio, Ray Gricar, Kortne Stouffer, Jamie Metzger, Toni Sharpless, Anna Maciejewska

  9. #54
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    TRACKER: While re-watching the WCCO video above, I was able to get a screenshot of a view of the tire track. I think the other pic you used was more of an angled shot.



    http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/0...ing-abduction/

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by thenotebook
    TRACKER: While re-watching the WCCO video above, I was able to get a screenshot of a view of the tire track. I think the other pic you used was more of an angled shot.

    I have never seen this picture. I will print it out and see if I can figure out what brand and time frame it was produced. The FBI has a great resource for this. I have an older tire guy who has probably seen every tire ever made.
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 07:55 PM. Reason: removed quote link
    Unless otherwise noted, my posts are opinions or theories only and may not be used outside of WS unless permission is requested in advance.
    Any general subject matter photographs posted by me are solely to give other WS members an "on the ground" frame of reference of satellite views and are visible to anyone from public roads and access points. They may not be used outside of WS unless permission is requested in advance

    Please help find Lauren Jackson Missing since 1988 Spring City PA

    Pennsylvania Missing Persons Cases:
    Lauren Jackson, Amanda DeGuio, Ray Gricar, Kortne Stouffer, Jamie Metzger, Toni Sharpless, Anna Maciejewska


  11. #56
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    tracks

    I wonder how LE decided the last set of tire tracks were Kevins? If Kevin came forward in 2004 that's 15 years. I doubt Kevin would have had the same tires on his car or maybe even not own the same car at that point. Assuming Kevin had records of the tires and LE checked that out and if not, then they simply took his word for it? Or can they find out the tire model based upon the VIN # of the vehicle?

    And maybe Kevin's tracks covered the perps tracks?(if there was a vehicle). Or maybe the lack of preservation of the crime scene obliterated most of the evidence...seems like the available footprints from Jacob were minimal at best. Has anyone ever seen an aerial picture showing yellow tape protecting the 40 yards in question? I've only seen pictures of yellow tape around the boys bikes + scooter.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cGorg View Post
    I wonder how LE decided the last set of tire tracks were Kevins? If Kevin came forward in 2004 that's 15 years. I doubt Kevin would have had the same tires on his car or maybe even not own the same car at that point. Assuming Kevin had records of the tires and LE checked that out and if not, then they simply took his word for it? Or can they find out the tire model based upon the VIN # of the vehicle?

    And maybe Kevin's tracks covered the perps tracks?(if there was a vehicle). Or maybe the lack of preservation of the crime scene obliterated most of the evidence...seems like the available footprints from Jacob were minimal at best. Has anyone ever seen an aerial picture showing yellow tape protecting the 40 yards in question? I've only seen pictures of yellow tape around the boys bikes + scooter.
    as I said, if LE identified all tire tracks and there was ONE unknown, then when Kevin came forward, LE now had all tracks identified. They did not need to see Kevin's tires. He said he was there, so there goes the track that was unknown
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 07:53 PM. Reason: quote link

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepHopeAlive;
    So LE just took Kevin's word for it? I'm not suggesting that Kevin is/was lying. I'm just wondering if they were actually able to prove the tracks belonged to the car that Kevin was driving at the time.
    Yes, that's my point exactly. Thank you. Trust but verify. Kevin obviously had his girlfriend plus others to verify his whereabouts. Just what if that set of tracks didn't match Kevin's girlfriend's car-then what?. It's disturbing that neither he nor his girlfriend or others(girlfriend's brother + wife) did not come forward immediately because apparently the tires were new at the time. Probably LE could have investigated tire stores in the area to verify and maybe they did. But if they solidly identified the tracks then why not say so thus strengthening their case and adding pressure to the POI. Sorry to be muddleheaded about this but the 10-23-89 picture of Investigator Steve Mund spraying something(I assume Jacob's footprints) on the road still bothers me. If you look at that picture there's tire tracks in a curving pattern around the investigator...does anyone else see that? Trackergd? Why would there be tire tracks in this trajectory in that section of the road?
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 07:52 PM. Reason: quote link

  14. #59
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    retreiving post #1011, Thread #5 from ELOCsoul

    Kevin On the Driveway

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm going through old articles for the umpteenth time and came across a subtle bit of information that supports the statements from Kevin that he drove up DR's driveway to turn around, and not just turn in and back out.

    In the October 24, 1989 St Cloud Times, an article states that "A detective made plaster prints of tennis shoe treads and tire tracks found about 40 yards from the spot where the abduction occurred."

    Then a bit later in the story:

    "A bloodhound from the Minneapolis police department led officers to the tire tracks, confirming their hunch that the man had a car nearby."

    I'm just wondering how this ties into the footprint picture and is this Steve Mund?

  15. #60
    ELOCsoul's Avatar
    ELOCsoul is offline Verified Author - "Finding Jacob Wetterling"
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    Quote Originally Posted by cGorg View Post
    retreiving post #1011, Thread #5 from ELOCsoul

    Kevin On the Driveway

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm going through old articles for the umpteenth time and came across a subtle bit of information that supports the statements from Kevin that he drove up DR's driveway to turn around, and not just turn in and back out.

    In the October 24, 1989 St Cloud Times, an article states that "A detective made plaster prints of tennis shoe treads and tire tracks found about 40 yards from the spot where the abduction occurred."

    Then a bit later in the story:

    "A bloodhound from the Minneapolis police department led officers to the tire tracks, confirming their hunch that the man had a car nearby."

    I'm just wondering how this ties into the footprint picture and is this Steve Mund?
    Thinking about this some more. The tire tracks by the footprints most likely indicated that the car was traveling by the footprints. In other words, the car would not have been parked at that spot. The reason I say this is, if the car would have been parked there, there would have been some indication in the tracks of the car starting out. If starting from a dead stop, there would have been some slippage of the tires in the dirt. Apparently investigators did not see any sign of slippage in the tire prints.

    So that, coupled with Dan Rassier's eyewitness account of seeing a car with another person in it turn around in his driveway, would have led LE to conclude that the abduction was by car, and that the driver drove all the way into the DR property AFTER taking Jacob.

    Once that car was identified (Kevin) in 2003 - it changed the whole theory of the crime. Again - it's all about the cars. If Dan Rassier truly did report (in 1989) two other cars in his driveway that day / night - then he is probably innocent. If he didn't report that right away, then he is probably guilty of the crime, or of covering it up.

    That being said - there is nothing (other than Dan's word) to support the notion that he reported multiple cars back in 1989.
    Last edited by bessie; 09-04-2015 at 07:58 PM. Reason: quote link

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