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  1. #31
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    I'm late to this party, haven't read here in awhile.
    Can anyone tell me when a ruling is expected on the appeal?
    "Words can break someone into a million pieces, but they can also put them back together. I hope you use yours for good, because the only words you'll regret more than the ones left unsaid are the ones you use to intentionally hurt someone."

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giles View Post
    Mr Fossil and Judge Judi's latest post: The phone data

    https://cc11313.wordpress.com/2015/1...he-phone-data/
    ....another diabolical nail in the coffin for Pistorius's defense.....

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interested Bystander View Post
    Mr Fossil and JJ,

    This is a photo of a piercing ricochet injury of the skin which, of course, was not the case with RS, probably because she was wearing a vest top and, maybe, because there was a double ricochet which would have somewhat reduced the velocity of the bullet. What I find interesting is the double injury, so similar to what we see on RS's back but she was only grazed. The photo attributes the injuries to separation of the bullet casing (top injury) with the projectile penetrating the bottom injury. We know there were two bullet fragments in the magazine rack which might suggest that two fragments were created during the rocochet before hitting Reeva.
    Thank you. Very interesting and an eerily similar looking set of wounds.

    The fragments found in the magazine rack are probably two of the B4 fragments (of which there were 4). B4(c) is associated with the head wound. The remainder weigh very little (between 11.5 and 13.7 grains) and are very jagged in nature. This implies that they don't have the weight or size to create the abrasions that we see and they would almost certainly tear the vest and the skin.

    IMO the only fragment that can realistically be associated with the abrasions is K which looks smoother (assuming the side we see is the side Nel proposes hits Reeva), is the right size and weighs in at 65.9 grains. So we are then left with figuring how it managed to hit Reeva twice with enough force to cause both abrasions (having already passed through a door and ricocheted twice), scrape the skin and then find its way into the toilet. And we have to believe the striations come from the vest. We'll be covering the vest when we revisit 'abrasions'.
    Last edited by Mr Fossil; 10-28-2015 at 02:47 PM. Reason: corrected weight
    "O, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!" Sir Walter Scott

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Fossil View Post
    Thank you. Very interesting and an eerily similar looking set of wounds.

    The fragments found in the magazine rack are probably two of the B4 fragments (of which there were 4). B4(c) is associated with the head wound. The remainder weigh very little (between 11.5 and 13.2 grains) and are very jagged in nature. This implies that they don't have the weight or size to create the abrasions that we see and they would almost certainly tear the vest and the skin.

    IMO the only fragment that can realistically be associated with the abrasions is K which looks smoother (assuming the side we see is the side Nel proposes hits Reeva), is the right size and weighs in at 65.9 grains. So we are then left with figuring how it managed to hit Reeva twice with enough force to cause both abrasions (having already passed through a door and ricocheted twice), scrape the skin and then find its way into the toilet. And we have to believe the striations come from the vest. We'll be covering the vest when we revisit 'abrasions'.
    I have read, somewhere along the line that fragments can skip, rather like a stone on water. Given that we are talking of a very bony area (RS was indeed very thin), could that be a possibility?

    I did not have any information with respect to the weight of the fragment pieces and that obviously rules out the 2 fragments in the magazine rack, neither of which were big enough to cause the injuries. I listened to Mangena's testimony but I am sure he did not mention weights or could it be that the SABC recording was incomplete? Was the information provided in court by someone else? I have not listened to Botha. Maybe I should have done.

    Another interesting piece of information I have gleaned from reading is that if the large fragment hit her it could bear an imprint of the pattern of her vest. I wonder whether anyone was diligent enough to look for this. Also, of course, it was the Defence who found it, if I remember correctly and maybe it was handled, cleaned, etc and any trace of evidence removed in that way, I assume unintentionally. If the fragment hit the side of the toilet, the pattern, if it existed, could easily have been reformed from the force.


  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interested Bystander View Post
    I have read, somewhere along the line that fragments can skip, rather like a stone on water. Given that we are talking of a very bony area (RS was indeed very thin), could that be a possibility?

    I did not have any information with respect to the weight of the fragment pieces and that obviously rules out the 2 fragments in the magazine rack, neither of which were big enough to cause the injuries. I listened to Mangena's testimony but I am sure he did not mention weights or could it be that the SABC recording was incomplete? Was the information provided in court by someone else? I have not listened to Botha. Maybe I should have done.

    Another interesting piece of information I have gleaned from reading is that if the large fragment hit her it could bear an imprint of the pattern of her vest. I wonder whether anyone was diligent enough to look for this. Also, of course, it was the Defence who found it, if I remember correctly and maybe it was handled, cleaned, etc and any trace of evidence removed in that way, I assume unintentionally. If the fragment hit the side of the toilet, the pattern, if it existed, could easily have been reformed from the force.
    The bullet weights come from Wolmarans's report which is available with a few other reports, including Mangena's, and lots of decent quality photos here: http://ewn.co.za/Features/behindthedoor. You can get yourself a super high quality image of the abrasions from Dixon's ricochet diagram which is also available here as a pdf. Just copy and save the photo.

    I have no problem visualising something hitting Reeva at both T11 and T12 as these are both bony prominences e.g. they stick out, hence nothing else is hit.

    I do have difficulty figuring a trajectory for K when it has spent all its energy. By definition it has to follow Reeva's spine so we need to place Reeva is a position that enables K to hit her, follow the path of her spine and then get into the toilet bowl. I'm sure if Reeva's vest imprint was on K Nel would have told us. But he didn't tell us very much. He put forward a theory which his lead witness didn't cover, he doesn't demonstrate the trajectory or show any testing of the vest weave versus the striations. Why? Was he winging it? I think so.
    "O, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!" Sir Walter Scott

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Fossil View Post
    The bullet weights come from Wolmarans's report which is available with a few other reports, including Mangena's, and lots of decent quality photos here: http://ewn.co.za/Features/behindthedoor. You can get yourself a super high quality image of the abrasions from Dixon's ricochet diagram which is also available here as a pdf. Just copy and save the photo.

    I have no problem visualising something hitting Reeva at both T11 and T12 as these are both bony prominences e.g. they stick out, hence nothing else is hit.

    I do have difficulty figuring a trajectory for K when it has spent all its energy. By definition it has to follow Reeva's spine so we need to place Reeva is a position that enables K to hit her, follow the path of her spine and then get into the toilet bowl. I'm sure if Reeva's vest imprint was on K Nel would have told us. But he didn't tell us very much. He put forward a theory which his lead witness didn't cover, he doesn't demonstrate the trajectory or show any testing of the vest weave versus the striations. Why? Was he winging it? I think so.
    Many thanks for the info. I can understand why you think the bullet would have lost too much velocity. I wonder if there is any information on the web about the velocity lost on ricochet. A have read both that little force is lost and contrarily that a lot of force is lost. With two ricochets I would suspect a great deal of force is lost BUT does it depend on the power of the gun and the distance between the shooter and the ricochet point/s?

    Mr Fossil, you did mention that the smaller fragments were not big enough to make the wounds in your blog. Apologies for forgetting this.

    Thank you for the link. I shall watch Woolmaran's testimony this evening and also see if I can find any other information with respect to velocity of ricochets. However, I agree totally, it is a big ask to imagine that this fragment was able to travel such a tortuous journey and hit Reeva and then deposit itself in the toilet. Almost impossible I would say. Maybe we are looking at her falling on the magazine rack or a gun injury after all.


  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interested Bystander View Post
    Many thanks for the info. I can understand why you think the bullet would have lost too much velocity. I wonder if there is any information on the web about the velocity lost on ricochet. A have read both that little force is lost and contrarily that a lot of force is lost. With two ricochets I would suspect a great deal of force is lost BUT does it depend on the power of the gun and the distance between the shooter and the ricochet point/s?

    Mr Fossil, you did mention that the smaller fragments were not big enough to make the wounds in your blog. Apologies for forgetting this.

    Thank you for the link. I shall watch Woolmaran's testimony this evening and also see if I can find any other information with respect to velocity of ricochets. However, I agree totally, it is a big ask to imagine that this fragment was able to travel such a tortuous journey and hit Reeva and then deposit itself in the toilet. Almost impossible I would say. Maybe we are looking at her falling on the magazine rack or a gun injury after all.
    I guess one way of considering this is to think about the bullet which went through Reeva's arm. It was found inside her vest and caused bruising to her chest. If we compare this to the bullet which missed Reeva, it too went through the door, then glanced off the wall at E (so probably only lost a little energy) then smacked into F, cracking the tile before going wherever next but ultimately landing up in the toilet along with a piece of tile from F.

    So, even ignoring E (let's assume it was minimal loss), do we think the loss of energy from hitting a wall head on would be greater or less than going through an arm? Then consider the rest. It has to then hit Reeva hard enough to create the abrasions, skin tears and striations before travelling in an improbable direction into the toilet.

    Yes, the smaller fragments are in my commentary in blue on Mangena's testimony although I don't mention the actual weights. Note to self to add.

    As I say in 'abrasions', although Dixon was not a good witness, his theory of the magazine rack and vest combining to create the abrasions and striations was not without merit.But it blows Mangena's theory of Reeva sitting on the magazine rack away...

    One question everyone asks is: don't I think that 5 experts (if you count Nel) must have considered everything and if we're right why didn't they find it? It's effectively the warning I place at the end of each post. My answer here would be 5 'experts' and not one of them agrees. At the very least 4 must be wrong. So what's to say a 6th theory isn't right?
    "O, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!" Sir Walter Scott

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Fossil View Post
    I guess one way of considering this is to think about the bullet which went through Reeva's arm. It was found inside her vest and caused bruising to her chest. If we compare this to the bullet which missed Reeva, it too went through the door, then glanced off the wall at E (so probably only lost a little energy) then smacked into F, cracking the tile before going wherever next but ultimately landing up in the toilet along with a piece of tile from F.

    So, even ignoring E (let's assume it was minimal loss), do we think the loss of energy from hitting a wall head on would be greater or less than going through an arm? Then consider the rest. It has to then hit Reeva hard enough to create the abrasions, skin tears and striations before travelling in an improbable direction into the toilet.

    Yes, the smaller fragments are in my commentary in blue on Mangena's testimony although I don't mention the actual weights. Note to self to add.

    As I say in 'abrasions', although Dixon was not a good witness, his theory of the magazine rack and vest combining to create the abrasions and striations was not without merit.But it blows Mangena's theory of Reeva sitting on the magazine rack away...

    One question everyone asks is: don't I think that 5 experts (if you count Nel) must have considered everything and if we're right why didn't they find it? It's effectively the warning I place at the end of each post. My answer here would be 5 'experts' and not one of them agrees. At the very least 4 must be wrong. So what's to say a 6th theory isn't right?

    I have now read Woolmarans' report. I didn't know of its existence. I wish I had. His report certainly seems more cogent than his testimony, although that had to contain the same detail. It also makes it very much easier to picture what happened. Not that it has helped me much LOL. I am now at a total loss to try and make sense of the back wounds.

    I totally agree about 5 experts not really agreeing. So why not add a 6th. The larger of the back wounds does look as though the force of "whatever" hit her has pushed the skin in one direction (which is exactly what a bullet/fragment would do) but I can see it could be many other objects that might have created the marks, ie the handle of the gun. He too could have jabbed her in the back with the cricket bat. I firmly believe she was screaming as she left the bedroom and ran down the corridor. What was he threatening her with, or maybe he had already hit her back with something fairly hard? He also had a baseball bat in the bedroom, did he not? The mind boggles.


  9. #39
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    Mr Fossil, I am going off on a tangent now. Woomarans' report makes no comment about how many bullets were left in the magazine after the shooting. I find it a little odd that this is not stated. I wonder why? If there were 7 missing it might have created a lot of questions. Maybe that was evidenced by somebody else?? Did anyone ever state how many bullets remained in the gun? I know this was discussed on here some while ago. The gun can carry a magazine of 17 bullets plus one up. OP seems the sort of guy that would always have his gun fully loaded though that would not have been easy to prove unless one of his friends on the stand happened to know his habits. Was it you who attempted to determine the remaining bullets from one of the photos?
    Last edited by Interested Bystander; 10-28-2015 at 04:55 PM. Reason: Correct spelling of Woomarans


  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interested Bystander View Post
    Mr Fossil, I am going off on a tangent now. Woomarans' report makes no comment about how many bullets were left in the magazine after the shooting. I find it a little odd that this is not stated. I wonder why? If there were 7 missing it might have created a lot of questions. Maybe that was evidenced by somebody else?? Did anyone ever state how many bullets remained in the gun? I know this was discussed on here some while ago. The gun can carry a magazine of 17 bullets plus one up. OP seems the sort of guy that would always have his gun fully loaded though that would not have been easy to prove unless one of his friends on the stand happened to know his habits. Was it you who attempted to determine the remaining bullets from one of the photos?
    No, it was never mentioned by anyone. Yes, I wrote something on this a while ago. I'll dig out a link to it tomorrow.
    "O, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!" Sir Walter Scott


  11. #41
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    A news report by Denise Ni She (A Pistorian)

    http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Oscar...tment-20151029

    A sad feature of South African society is the high instances of people being killed or seriously injured during home invasions. It is therefore not surprising that there are incidents of intruders killed and sadly also family members killed mistaken for intruders. However the impression created by the State and media is such instances must be rare and that Oscar was somehow unique in both believing there was an intruder and fearing an intruder. What is also unique in this case is how, at each step, Oscar is apparently viewed and treated differently to other similar cases and certainly has not been given anything that could be considered preferential treatment. The media have taken every opportunity to argue erroneously that he is somehow privileged that the verdict, judgment, his incarceration in the hospital section of the prison, his release to house arrest was further evidence of his preferential treatment...........


  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interested Bystander View Post
    A news report by Denise Ni She (A Pistorian)

    http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Oscar...tment-20151029

    A sad feature of South African society is the high instances of people being killed or seriously injured during home invasions. It is therefore not surprising that there are incidents of intruders killed and sadly also family members killed mistaken for intruders. However the impression created by the State and media is such instances must be rare and that Oscar was somehow unique in both believing there was an intruder and fearing an intruder. What is also unique in this case is how, at each step, Oscar is apparently viewed and treated differently to other similar cases and certainly has not been given anything that could be considered preferential treatment. The media have taken every opportunity to argue erroneously that he is somehow privileged that the verdict, judgment, his incarceration in the hospital section of the prison, his release to house arrest was further evidence of his preferential treatment...........
    Plenty to agree with in this..

  13. #43
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    While home invasions may be very common, it would be more helpful to know how common they are in high-security estates like Silverwoods. I'm guessing very very few compared with normal homes. I think when we read how common intruder killings are, it's not in high-security estates with electric fencing, armed guards and security cameras. I bet they're not common at all, which is no doubt why OP chose to live there.

  14. #44
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    Anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelonline View Post
    I'm late to this party, haven't read here in awhile.
    Can anyone tell me when a ruling is expected on the appeal?
    ?????
    "Words can break someone into a million pieces, but they can also put them back together. I hope you use yours for good, because the only words you'll regret more than the ones left unsaid are the ones you use to intentionally hurt someone."

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by soozieqtips View Post
    While home invasions may be very common, it would be more helpful to know how common they are in high-security estates like Silverwoods. I'm guessing very very few compared with normal homes. I think when we read how common intruder killings are, it's not in high-security estates with electric fencing, armed guards and security cameras. I bet they're not common at all, which is no doubt why OP chose to live there.
    I posted this because I thought it was typical of Pistorians who just cannot see the wood for the trees. Do they ever sit down and think about what they say? She belongs to the Pistorius support group I believe.


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