Feds investigate Hobby Lobby boss: smuggling Biblical artifacts?

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This would not surprise me in the least. I have to hope that hateful people like this receive what is coming to them.
 
I'm trying to figure out what actual law was broken.

Was it simply the improper paperwork (and corresponding avoidance of taxes), or is actually illegal to bring these artifacts into this country?

Not that I'm defending improper paperwork and tax avoidance, but the article seems to suggest a huge terrible evil act on the part of the HL CEO.

Probably just as well that those artifacts were brought here, before ISIS destroyed them.
 
Wasn't Hobby Lobby management in the news for something else not too long ago? I think related to Obamacare or something like that.

I am pretty sure that tight import restrictions on these types of things have to be done and it sounds like that maybe what the deal is about.

The ISIS destruction of old artifacts is a terrible thing because those artifacts are irreplaceable. Not sure if the source of these items are from places like that but the least they could do is import properly. It sounds like personal profit reasons were involved.
Museums are the right kind of place for things like this but they need to keep things on the up and up. It sure seems like a whole underground business happens with these types of things.

It makes you wonder how museums even get some of their exhibit items because its not like there is a store for things like this. Private sales of artifacts seem to be the predominant way all these items ever get to a museum.

Its very sad although I think governments don't do a very good job of providing alternative ways of obtaining and storing artifacts. The governments themselves kind of force the industry to be shady because there are not easy set rules to follow and all governements are probably different. And everybody wants to make a buck along the line. Even governments with their taxes, etc.

Not sure its ever going to change for the better until a multinational store gets developed.
"Artifacts-R-Us" :)
 
Hatfield said:
Wasn't Hobby Lobby management in the news for something else not too long ago? I think related to Obamacare or something like that.
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They had a well-publicized court case to protect their 'right' to discriminate against homosexuals.
 
Montjoy said:
They had a well-publicized court case to protect their 'right' to discriminate against homosexuals.
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Against homosexuals? I thought it was about their desire to not fund abortions, which by definition is not a result of homosexual activity.

Can you provide a link, please, to their homosexual discrimination case? I must have missed that one.
 
Hatfield said:
Wasn't Hobby Lobby management in the news for something else not too long ago? I think related to Obamacare or something like that.
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Rsbm
You are correct. They were in the news because they wanted to be exempt from the obamacare forced birth control mandate. The Supreme Court ruled in their favor.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-exempts-hobby-lobby-from-obamacare-contraception-mandate/

Attempting to expand religious expression protections to small business owners without significantly disrupting the rules that govern for-profit corporations, the Supreme Court on Monday ruled that the Obama administration must exempt closely-held firms like Hobby Lobby from a rule requiring large companies to help pay for their employees' birth control.
 
sonjay said:
I'm trying to figure out what actual law was broken.

Was it simply the improper paperwork (and corresponding avoidance of taxes), or is actually illegal to bring these artifacts into this country?

Not that I'm defending improper paperwork and tax avoidance, but the article seems to suggest a huge terrible evil act on the part of the HL CEO.

Probably just as well that those artifacts were brought here, before ISIS destroyed them.
Click to expand...

When I read this question my first thought was the Smithsonian Institute and Nasa Museum. What if they were looted?

How does someone come into possession of artifacts owned by a country? Imo, the answer is they don't, unless that country wants them displayed or kept safe in another country. Even then, another country is unlikely to pick the Green family as the caretaker of ancient artifacts imo. What are the Green family credentials for the safekeeping of ancient artifacts?

This is theft imo on a very large scale.
 
BayouBelle_LA said:
Rsbm
You are correct. They were in the news because they wanted to be exempt from the obamacare forced birth control mandate. The Supreme Court ruled in their favor.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-exempts-hobby-lobby-from-obamacare-contraception-mandate/

Attempting to expand religious expression protections to small business owners without significantly disrupting the rules that govern for-profit corporations, the Supreme Court on Monday ruled that the Obama administration must exempt closely-held firms like Hobby Lobby from a rule requiring large companies to help pay for their employees' birth control.
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Except that's not quite accurate. HL is not exempt from paying for birth control, and they didn't seek to be exempt from paying for birth control. They sought, and received, exemption from paying for certain forms of birth control that are essentially abortifacients.

It's a very narrowly tailored exemption that is mischaracterized in many articles about it.

I'm still puzzling over how I missed their case about discriminating against gays. Does anyone know anything about that one?
 
Woodland said:
When I read this question my first thought was the Smithsonian Institute and Nasa Museum. What if they were looted?

How does someone come into possession of artifacts owned by a country? Imo, the answer is they don't, unless that country wants them displayed or kept safe in another country. Even then, another country is unlikely to pick the Green family as the caretaker of ancient artifacts imo. What are the Green family credentials for the safekeeping of ancient artifacts?

This is theft imo on a very large scale.
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Well, that's just it. That article didn't mention anything about theft. Was it theft? What evidence do you have that it was theft? Who were the artifacts owned by, prior to their acquisition by the HL folks? Did those owners have the right to sell them? Is the investigation even about theft? Or just "smuggling" -- aka, not filing the right paperwork and not jumping through the right bureaucratic hoops and not paying enough in taxes?

The investigation has apparently been going for 4 years. Is it that difficult to uncover evidence of theft?
 
sonjay said:
Except that's not quite accurate. HL is not exempt from paying for birth control, and they didn't seek to be exempt from paying for birth control. They sought, and received, exemption from paying for certain forms of birth control that are essentially abortifacients.

It's a very narrowly tailored exemption that is mischaracterized in many articles about it.

I'm still puzzling over how I missed their case about discriminating against gays. Does anyone know anything about that one?
Click to expand...
I'm at work so can't do much more than Google to read tidbits. Google Hobby Lobby and homophobic for some info.
 
Damarna said:
I'm at work so can't do much more than Google to read tidbits. Google Hobby Lobby and homophobic for some info.
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But no link to the court case referred to above? Does it exist?
 
sonjay said:
Well, that's just it. That article didn't mention anything about theft. Was it theft? What evidence do you have that it was theft? Who were the artifacts owned by, prior to their acquisition by the HL folks? Did those owners have the right to sell them? Is the investigation even about theft? Or just "smuggling" -- aka, not filing the right paperwork and not jumping through the right bureaucratic hoops and not paying enough in taxes?

The investigation has apparently been going for 4 years. Is it that difficult to uncover evidence of theft?
Click to expand...

How does one come into possession of artifacts owned by another country? If someone in Iraq ended up in possession of Neil Armstrong's spacesuit - would fraud/theft not be suspected? Out right said?

The difficulty imo, is nailing the Green family for any meaningful charge - hundreds of millions in the US coffers would be good at any time no? It would cover the US taxpayer cost of ..., well you know - a good thing imo.
 
Woodland said:
How does one come into possession of artifacts owned by another country? If someone in Iraq ended up in possession of Neil Armstrong's spacesuit - would fraud/theft not be suspected? Out right said?

The difficulty imo, is nailing the Green family for any meaningful charge - hundreds of millions in the US coffers would be good at any time no? It would cover the US taxpayer cost of ..., well you know - a good thing imo.
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BBM.

Do we know who these artifacts were owned by prior to their acquisition by the HL folks? Do we know how the HL folks acquired the artifacts?

If you know of any articles providing that information, please provide a link. I'm very curious.
 
From The Daily Beast article:

“If someone looking to bring antiquities into the U.S. knows that the artifacts should never have left their country of origin, or lack proper provenance, the only way to get them through customs is to lie: about the country of origin, about the country of export, about the value, about the identity. (This happened recently in the case of a Picasso worth $15 million, which was listed on the customs declaration as a “handicraft” worth $37.) One source familiar with the Hobby Lobby investigation told us that this is precisely what happened in this case: The tablets were described on their FedEx shipping label as samples of “hand-crafted clay tiles.” This description may have been technically accurate, but the monetary value assigned to them—around $300, we’re told—vastly underestimates their true worth, and, just as important, obscures their identification as the cultural heritage of Iraq.”​

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...e-hobby-lobby-boss-for-illicit-artifacts.html
***
 
sonjay said:
BBM.

Do we know who these artifacts were owned by prior to their acquisition by the HL folks? Do we know how the HL folks acquired the artifacts?

If you know of any articles providing that information, please provide a link. I'm very curious.
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Article from post #1 -

The tablets were inscribed in cuneiform—the script of ancient Assyria and Babylonia, present-day Iraq—and were thousands of years old. Their destination was the compound of the Hobby Lobby corporation, ...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...e-hobby-lobby-boss-for-illicit-artifacts.html

This might answer the question.
 
There are literally hundreds of sources for this information, here is just one:

http://egyptianstreets.com/2015/05/...funding-and-support-of-a-terror-organization/

Furthermore, IS (ISIS)has become increasingly organized in order to take advantage of local moneymaking opportunities. An significant source of income for IS has been hostage-taking and kidnappings for profit (by 2014, their extortion network in Mosul was generating $12 million per month)[2]. The organization has also resorted to bank robbery, selling illegal drugs, looting museums and selling artifacts illicitly, peddling crude oil on the black market to Turkey, and even owning Internet cafes. But smuggling oil and ransacking banks can hardly sustain an entire State that controls such a vast area. Therefore, a significant amount of resources must be coming from outside Syria and Iraq.​

So, it seems possible to me that Mr Green and his Hobby Lobby are or have been supporting an American enemy. IMO.
 
Woodland said:
Article from post #1 -

The tablets were inscribed in cuneiform—the script of ancient Assyria and Babylonia, present-day Iraq—and were thousands of years old. Their destination was the compound of the Hobby Lobby corporation, ...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...e-hobby-lobby-boss-for-illicit-artifacts.html

This might answer the question.
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Interesting. So it very well could be tied to the artifacts we heard about that ISIS has been looting/destroying in both Iraq + Syria.

The question becomes were the items coming from the "good guys" trying to protect them from falling into the hands of ISIS OR was it from "bad guys" that had already pillaged them and were trying to make money off of them.

This gets really interesting when you start thinking about Syria and its own antiquities.

With Iraq you would think Iraq itself would want to keep anything originally in Iraq's museaums and move them to one of their safest cities like Bagdad so not sure there are any "Good Guys" with Iraqs items.

With Syria it gets even more complex because the US does not particularly like Assaads regime so not sure the "good guys" would want Assad to protect its own antiquities like they protected their Mustard Gas. But then would they really be considered "good guys" in all of this OR would they be considered thieves trying to make money?

And what is the Buyer considered in this? Instead of a "savior" the buyer maybe considered a conspirator of thieves?

Stepping back away from it it seems the Government of their own country would need to give permission for any of its own items to be sold or leave the country. So unless the HL owner has permission in writing from the leaders of Iraq and/or Syria, I think they would be considered a conpirators of sorts.

What a mess. No wonder its taking so long.
 
Whether they are saviors or conspirators HL did not go about this in the right way leaving them open to suspicion. Imo the US government should do the same as HL and make some money from this - top up the coffers with an unprecedented amount in fines. A deterrent for the future.
 
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