GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #15

Coldpizza · Mar 12, 2015

Becky Watts murder trial: Recap of Day 22 as stepbrother and his girlfriend deny murder
9 NOVEMBER 2015

A jury heard the last of the closing speeches for the defence in the 22nd day of the Becky Watts murder trial at Bristol Crown Court.

The court heard from lawyers representing James Ireland and Donovan Demetrius - who both deny assisting an offender.

Judge Mr Justice Dingemans begun his summing up and will continue his summary and directions to the jury tomorrow morning.

Becky, 16, disappeared from her home in Bristol on February 19 sparking a huge police search which gained national publicity.

Her body parts were found in a garden shed in a nearby home on March 2.

Her stepbrother Nathan Matthews, 28, admits killing Becky by suffocating the teenager in her bedroom but denies murder - claiming he did not intend to cause her serious harm.

His girlfriend Shauna Hoare, 21, denies any involvement in Becky's killing.

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Media Thread

The Rules

FIND Rebecca WATTS

Avon and Somerset Constabulary

Rebecca Watts Case Map credit to skibaboo

https://twitter.com/ITVWCBeckyTrial

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Coldpizza · Nov 1, 2015

Link

Please continue here for Becky

Legal · Nov 9, 2015

Clio said:
Hi Legal & Welcome,

BIB If they did try to assault Becky in her own home, and there was therefore no joint kidnap plan at all, how do you see this fitting with the charges and judges instructions? Just curious to have your view on it, if you don't mind me asking. TIA

http://www.itv.com/news/west/2015-11-09/becky-watts-trial-what-the-jury-must-decide/
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...each-verdict-without-emotion?CMP=share_btn_tw

Hi! Very good questions! Yes, it's confusing to try and work out what went to plan and what didn't. I was trying to put together the pieces of evidence but nothing seems to fit. the police have to go with the evidence they have and with the charges that the CPS say are likely to result in a conviction but you're right, an assault at her house and kidnap do seem contradictory. Back to the drawing board. I read the list of items found in the shed but I just can't put everything together. Poor Becky. Whatever happened must have been terrifying for her.

Cherwell · Nov 9, 2015

Tealgrove said:
Do you think that we are privy to all the evidence? I just get the feeling that things were presented in court and that it was not reported in MSM. Is that possible?

I am used to the Canadian and American trials wherein there may be a publication ban prior to going to trial but once the trial gets going we know the whole deal and I just get the feeling that we are missing things.

Yes, it's more than possible. It's quite common for reporting restrictions to be placed on matters that are sensitive in some way. A lot (though not necessarily all) is usually revealed after the conclusion of the case.

MamaJoJo · Nov 9, 2015

CoverMeCagney said:
I must have entirely missed the statements from LO. And she was at a boy friends house overnight the night before? I had thought she was at Courtneys.

Please can someone elaborate?!

As I understand it, BW was at a friend's house who happens to be a boy. She wasn't with Courtney nor was she with her boyfriend.

Not the best quote but it'll do...

Another friend, at whose house Becky stayed on the night before she is believed to have died, said she was looking forward to seeing her boyfriend when she went home.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264556/Becky-Watts-murder-two-people-working-together.html

Tealgrove · Nov 9, 2015

Cherwell said:
Yes, it's more than possible. It's quite common for reporting restrictions to be placed on matters that are sensitive in some way. A lot (though not necessarily all) is usually revealed after the conclusion of the case.

That's what I'm hoping.

sar2them1984 · Nov 9, 2015

YidArmyRach said:
I wonder if any of them, before being told that, had tried to make a cigarette last for 22 - 25 minutes, to see if it is possible.

I'm actually surprised the defence hadn't already tried to fit someone into that suitcase - to show either how difficult it would be, or impossible. When there was the investigation into the "spy in the holdall" case, I'm sure that was recreated (by that I mean - didn't a lady demonstrate that it was possible to lock herself into the bag?).

I would have like NM to have proven in court that he could lift a 9 stone suitcase and carry it some distance, lift it up and even take it down some stairs. I'd have like to have seen him use the saw single handedly with such precision too.

Hahah that takes me back to last week's delay *rolling around*

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Insp.Dots · Nov 9, 2015

Legal said:
that's interesting, thank you! possibly not constructive manslaughter then. The intention to kill or cause GBH is what's required for a murder charge.

I have no idea on legality's other than what I've learnt here. I think the Police were pushing home Murder for both of them though in this case.
Don't think they have any hope on that for SH but you never know. This is where I wish we had 'live court tv' so we can 'read' the defendants and see and hear their reactions! Welcome anyway Legal!:loveyou:

k4kitty · Nov 9, 2015

Signing into new thread

I havent been commenting much as Im finding this really tough to follow (have followed the case since BW first went missing)

Tortoise · Nov 9, 2015

Another theory on the joint enterprise/kidnap conspiracy -

If NM had gone there with no kidnap plan and death had ensued, SH would still be charged with murder joint enterprise, unless she had reported him for the crime and hadn't helped to cover it up. ie/ she went there with a joint purpose to harm Becky.

Because NM has admitted kidnap leading to death, the state brought the charge of conspiracy to kidnap and murder against SH.

Possibly?

Beesknees · Nov 9, 2015

Hello, good evening WS fellows

The compilation from today's court session is now ready. The link to access it is here bellow this text in my signature.

I will now catch up along last thread as I followed it until page 45 and it ended at page 67.

What do you think of the changing of charges related to JI and DD? Can´t it be a way for the jury to think 'if the pros was wrong about JI and DD's charges could also be about SH and NM'?

Do you think it might 'weaken' the pros points?

Two days ago I asked here if it would be allowed the judge's summing and considerations to the jury to be reported live as happened with the previous phases in court.

I was answered 'yes' there is no reason not to be as it uses to be. Why wasn't it then? Why this case appears to be so strange?

This case seems to be full of taboos and its prosecution seems to have done a job as good as if it was a case of a robber who had stolen na apple in a market. Something of minor importance :gaah:

:Welcome1: to the new members!

skibaboo · Nov 9, 2015

Marking my spot. Waiting for the verdict is going to be nerve wracking, the trial so far has been exhausting, and that's just as an outsider. I've not posted so much as its frustrated the heck out of me. I try and post but I'm so angry about this all I just can't string much together, it would turn into a tirade of expletives. Kudos to all you who have raised some very interesting points and kept Becky name in the spotlight here.

#JusticeForBecky

lease:

Alyce · Nov 9, 2015

Evening BeesKnees and thank you as always for the upated compilation.

Re the Judge's summary. I think we will get to hear all of it, eventually. I just think he did not want the journos tweeting in bit by bit. There is a good summary from the Guardian newspaper of what he has said so far.

Here's the link to save you going all the way back through the previous thread.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...al-jury-told-to-reach-verdict-without-emotion

Alyce · Nov 9, 2015

Evening Skibaboo - waiting for the verdicts is going to be very stressful and that is just us, as outsiders. My thoughts are with Becky's family, I wish them strength to be able to get through these next few days.
I tend to be fairly calm on here but then have a good old rant at OH ! who has said he thinks verdicts by Thursday. I think no way, but would love it if he were right.

Tealgrove · Nov 9, 2015

Such a feeling of helplessness with this case and especially right now as we wait. I'm not good at waiting so I'll be anxiously waiting the outcome.

It has been extremely difficult to tie all the pieces together and it doesn't get any easier. I am quite sure that we are missing a ton of information. I'm hoping so for the jury's sake.

Well, it's almost in their hands now. They have a tough job ahead of them.

Justice for Becky I hope is just around the corner.

Beesknees · Nov 9, 2015

I don't think I will be able to be live waiting for the verdict the day it happens and if I come after to see what it was I will be dreading to enter online :cry:

I am so sorry for Becky and thinking about the horror that she suffered is so painful :cry:

I do hate those two criminals! Couldn't they have an ounce of dignity left and tell what they did from start to end? Couldn't they do it in 'exchange' for her losing her life and for her family's closure? Couldn't they have avoided this painful trial?

So much they do to avoid being in prision although they murdered and dismembered and joked about and did who knows what else they did with her.

She was only a 16 years old girl who was just beggining to experience life as a very young girl! She was like any other girls her age :cry:

Becky Watts was treated with fists, screwdrivers, knives, powersaws and who knows whatelse. Her murderers are treated with a lot of careful and nothing can be done to 'pinch' their rights...

Justice for Becky

Beesknees · Nov 9, 2015

Alyce said:
Evening BeesKnees and thank you as always for the upated compilation.

Re the Judge's summary. I think we will get to hear all of it, eventually. I just think he did not want the journos tweeting in bit by bit. There is a good summary from the Guardian newspaper of what he has said so far.

Here's the link to save you going all the way back through the previous thread.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...al-jury-told-to-reach-verdict-without-emotion

Thank you Alyce!

Clio · Nov 9, 2015

Tortoise said:
Another theory on the joint enterprise/kidnap conspiracy -

If NM had gone there with no kidnap plan and death had ensued, SH would still be charged with murder joint enterprise, unless she had reported him for the crime and hadn't helped to cover it up. ie/ she went there with a joint purpose to harm Becky.

Because NM has admitted kidnap leading to death, the state brought the charge of conspiracy to kidnap and murder against SH.

Possibly?

Sort of, possibly. I think they suspected her of more than just lying from almost the get go but there was no evidence of anything else. As we have discussed, NM/SH went to CH often so any fingerprints/DNA (with the exception of those of NM's in Becky's blood) could be innocently explained.

Yes, there is the common sense view that "If she wasn't involved in what happened to Becky, she would not have covered up for him" but I don't know how that stacks up from a legal perspective.

When it became apparent that they had found the kidnap texts, rape video etc it was pretty clear, to me anyway, that's what had allowed them to add the extra charge of murder etc for SH. (Note in June however, the additional charge was "conspiracy to commit false imprisonment" rather than "conspiricy to kidnap")

Pretty much as soon as the trial started, I have been convinced that JE would be used as I couldn't see any other way they could have charged SH with murder without having some concrete evidence to back it up. What has baffled me since then is how this would pan out when it became apparent (to me at least) that NM's kidnap story was utter rubbish. I hope the jury are less baffled.

Tortoise · Nov 9, 2015

Clio said:
Sort of, possibly. I think they suspected her of more than just lying from almost the get go but there was no evidence of anything else. As we have discussed, they went to CH often so any fingerprints/DNA (with the exception of those of NM's in Becky's blood) could be innocently explained.

Yes, there is the common sense view that "If she wasn't involved in what happened to Becky, she would not have covered up for him" but I don't know how that stacks up from a legal perspective.

When they found the kidnap texts, rape video etc it was pretty clear, to me anyway, that's what had allowed them to add the extra charge of murder for SH. (Note in June however, the additional charge was "conspiracy to commit false imprisonment" rather than "conspiricy to kidnap")

Pretty much as soon as the trial started, I have been convinced that JE would be used as I couldn't see any other way they could have charged SH with murder without having some concrete evidence to back it up. What has baffled me since then is how this would pan out when it became apparent (to me at least) that NM's kidnap story was utter rubbish. I hope the jury are less baffled.

I think his version of the kidnap for punishment is utter rubbish. But kidnap with a sexual motive is backed up by the evidence, and that evidence implicates SH too. If there were no prior texts and no searches for a petite 16 year old, then I would be struggling to make sense of SH's involvement.

I also think we have become so involved in the minutiae of everything - how long it takes to smoke, whether the rabbit had a carrot or a bowl of dried food, whether the door slammed, who wore the make up etc.. that it is easy to lose a sense of what they are really asking the court to believe about that morning.

When I stand back with just the mere idea that two people with an intense dislike for the victim, turned up at the house, with a spurious reason for being there that day anyway, and at a time when Becky would be alone, it takes me all of a minute to decide what happened. A murder occurred, was it silent?, one of the couple says she knew not a jot about it, heard no screams, no bumping around, saw nothing and her partner looked like he normally did 20 minutes later. Car was packed up, everything put back to normal, nothing disturbed, clothes and laptop all packed away too. All that was different was there was no more Becky. And then she says she was outside for the time that it took, in the rain, smoking one cigarette.

That is a reality check I think.

CoverMeCagney · Nov 9, 2015

Slightly off current topic. Maxine Carr has been mentioned a couple of times here with regards the possibility of SH getting a new identity if she's cleared. It seems unlikely as it's very seldom granted. I found an interesting article stating:

Carr is just one of four former UK prisoners to be given secret identities, along with child killer Mary Bell and James Bulger's murderers Robert Thompson and Jon Venables.

Her anonymity order was unique as she's the only adult to have had it granted, others including Baby P's mother and Karen Matthews requested it but were refused. The other 3 with new identities were all children at the time they killed. I'm not sure if there have been others since the article was written. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britains-vilest-women-maxine-carr-4551920

EDIT: I've realised these people were all convicted and served time. They may be several "accused but acquitted" who were given new identities.

GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #15

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