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  1. #691
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    From today's Prof Grant article

    From the link that Fossil supplied, it is worth a read

    amongst several other significant points which are "crucially important for South African law of evidence and criminal law" he writes on PPD

    We should expect the SCA to confirm that the defence of putative private defence must fail if there is dolus eventualis (forsight of the possibility and reckless persistence) relating to any of these requirements. In other words, that the defence must fail if the accused foresaw the possibility (and persisted nevertheless), that any of the requirements may not have been met. Thus, the defence must fail if the accused foresaw the possibility of all or of any of the following:
    1. That s/he was not under attack;
    2. That no attack had commenced or was imminent;
    3. That there was no attack on a legally protected interest that s/he was entitled to defend;
    4. That no force was necessary;
    5. That the force used was excessive in the circumstances; or
    6 The force used was not directed at the attacker.
    If the court confirms this, the claim of putative private defence must fail.
    http://criminallawza.net/2015/12/02/...torius-appeal/

  2. #692
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    James Grant has made an excellent post

    Especially as to the test for PPD:

    http://criminallawza.net/2015/12/02/...torius-appeal/

    We will hear whether the court confirms that, a defence of putative private defence must fail, when dolus eventualis is sufficient for a finding of intention (as it is for murder), if the accused had foresight of the possibility, at the critical time, that any of the requirements of private/self defence may not be have been satisfied. The significance is that the true defence (that is, not the “putative” mistaken defence), requires, for the defence to succeed, that:
    1. The accused was under an unlawful attack;
    2. That the attack had commenced or was imminent;
    3. That the attack was directed at an interest of the accused which he was entitled to defend;
    4. That force was necessary to repel the attack;
    5. That no more force than was necessary to avert the attack was used, and that in any event, such force was reasonable given the circumstances; and
    6. The force used was directed at the attacker.
    A defence of putative private defence is that, while there was, in reality, no valid claim of private defence, the accused was mistaken so that s/he believed that all requirements were satisfied.
    We should expect the SCA to confirm that the defence of putative private defence must fail if there is dolus eventualis (forsight of the possibility and reckless persistence) relating to any of these requirements. In other words, that the defence must fail if the accused foresaw the possibility (and persisted nevertheless), that any of the requirements may not have been met. Thus, the defence must fail if the accused foresaw the possibility of all or of any of the following:
    1. That s/he was not under attack;
    2.That no attack had commenced or was imminent;
    3. That there was no attack on a legally protected interest that s/he was entitled to defend;
    4. That no force was necessary;
    5. That the force used was excessive in the circumstances; or
    6. The force used was not directed at the attacker.
    If the court confirms this, the claim of putative private defence must fail.
    As you can see Masipa was OUTRAGEOUSLY lazy not to work through the individual points of the test.

    Just claiming he was in fear of his life is not enough (per Leach).

    ETA -oh SNAP!

    He could see the door was not opening

    He was aware that he had not verified who was in the toilet.

    The force was clearly not necessary and was obviously excessive!

  3. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjitty View Post
    James Grant has made an excellent post

    Especially as to the test for PPD:

    http://criminallawza.net/2015/12/02/...torius-appeal/



    As you can see Masipa was OUTRAGEOUSLY lazy not to work through the individual points of the test.

    Just claiming he was in fear of his life is not enough (per Leach).

    ETA -oh SNAP!

    He could see the door was not opening

    He was aware that he had not verified who was in the toilet.

    The force was clearly not necessary and was obviously excessive!
    It's just unbelievable that anyone could think he was justified in shooting because he heard a noise. A noise that immediately became a threat to his life! It's just crazy. He had the upper hand once he had his gun pointing at the closed door. People (supporters) seem to completely overlook the fact he was never ever in any danger. Not even a whiff of danger. Here's hoping the right thing is done tomorrow and a clear message sent out to people like OP who think they're above the law. And of course he had to say he was in fear for his life. What else could a dishonest and evasive witness say?

  4. #694
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    I've started a new thread for the verdict hearing. The thread will open for posting about 45 minutes prior to the hearing.

    Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #67 *Appeal Verdict*

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  5. #695
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    So will we find out what the verdict is on the appeal tomorrow? Or is it just another hearing?
    “Every day that they don’t find something is good for me.“ Billie Dunn

  6. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by katydid23 View Post
    So will we find out what the verdict is on the appeal tomorrow? Or is it just another hearing?
    Tomorrow we'll find out if Masipa's verdict is upheld or not.

  7. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjitty View Post
    James Grant has made an excellent post

    Especially as to the test for PPD:

    http://criminallawza.net/2015/12/02/...torius-appeal/



    As you can see Masipa was OUTRAGEOUSLY lazy not to work through the individual points of the test.

    Just claiming he was in fear of his life is not enough (per Leach).

    ETA -oh SNAP!

    He could see the door was not opening

    He was aware that he had not verified who was in the toilet.

    The force was clearly not necessary and was obviously excessive!
    He testified that he did not direct his aim at the attacker so he's failed no.6 too.

  8. #698
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    Jun 2014
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    528
    Quote Originally Posted by soozieqtips View Post
    If the verdict is upheld tomorrow and everyone with an anxiety disorder is given licence to kill, I suggest the following tips for any overnight guests staying with an anxious gun owner.

    • Sleep with a catheter
    • Bring your own rustle-free sheets
    • Bring pureed food for snacking. Chewing noises could get you shot
    • Learn to levitate so you can move around silently
    • Use breathing strips

    I'm sure there are more, but that's a start.
    I think I perceive a slight problem. If you move around silently, so as not to disturb your anxious gun-owning, wide-awake, nervous wreck of a host, there's every chance that he'll jump to the conclusion that it couldn't possibly be you in the bathroom, so you'll probably end up being blasted to pieces anyway; and, to top it all, he'll then try to suggest that your terrible accident could have been avoided, if only you hadn't been careless enough to keep so quiet in the first place!


  9. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherbert View Post
    I think I perceive a slight problem. If you move around silently, so as not to disturb your anxious gun-owning, wide-awake, nervous wreck of a host, there's every chance that he'll jump to the conclusion that it couldn't possibly be you in the bathroom, so you'll probably end up being blasted to pieces anyway; and, to top it all, he'll then try to suggest that your terrible accident could have been avoided, if only you hadn't been careless enough to keep so quiet in the first place!

    BIB - lol. So silence is really not golden!

  10. #700
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    Night night peeps. See you all in about 7 hours!!


  11. #701
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    AU
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleuth-d- View Post
    realistically, the pistorius/imagined intruder defence would only be useful in cases similar to his… the domestic violence/no witnesses situation.

    imo, tomorrow we will see where sa law stands on this.
    BIB. This post says it all for me. The intruder story 'grew legs' with the help of those who contributed to his defense IMO.

  12. #702
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    Good morning. The new thread is open for posting now.


    Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #67 *Appeal Verdict*
    PODCAST ROW

    WEBSLEUTHS ON FACEBOOK
    __________________________________
    Always give generously of yourself to support your beliefs. And when you're knocked down, give more.




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