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  1. #31
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    Here is a passionate article by Lisa from the Juror13 blog, including some photos of Oscar looking particularly smug in court today:

    https://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2015...-into-despair/

  2. #32
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarenUK View Post
    New thread cake... We need something to cheer us up!

    Attachment 85427
    propos:
    Still no news concerning Zwiebel??? I have no idea by which means I could find out that she/he is being fine. Like others here I'm really worried.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjitty View Post
    I think the criticisms of Nel are quite unfair

    We can see the judge was well minded to grant bail and OP has had bail right throughout these proceedings except for when he was sentenced for CH

    I agree it seems ridiculous - I would have expected jail in other countries.

    But I really don't see what Nel as prosecutor can do differently - and anyway, OP is fortunate with the Court break - but he will have to serve his time eventually.

    Unless he is left off by the Con Court - but in that event - he ought not to have served his time.
    I will say that today he did better than usual but as a lay person it really would be good to be able to follow his argument on all occasions. I felt really uncomfortable during the SCA hearing and, before that the trial but, nonetheless, was delighted that he won. I cringed when he found difficulty in answering the very first question of the SCA Appeal day. I think you may find this very much easier, being a lawyer and knowing where he is leading.

    I don't doubt Nel's integrity or knowledge but, no matter how hard I listen, his argument is usually broken and disjointed without an easily understood flow to it. He is the only senior lawyer I have listened to that suffers from this problem and I can only think it may be his fluency in English is not strong. He seems to struggle for words at times. Compared to Roux (who I find a bit of a con man) he lags well behind in fluency. By that I mean he seems to lack good expression of thought processes. However, IMO, Roux only got as far as he did by oiling the procedure with his half truths and obsequious bearing. That is something I would never say about Nel. I think he is a genuine, hardworking, honest but maybe anxious man.


  5. #35
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    Still catching up with video and comments. .

    The ruling

    10 000 R bail
    Out of house from 7 till noon
    No flight risk
    The smirking and arrogance
    "I have no history of violence"
    I am speechless, shocked. Ridiculous, totally inappropriate (again !!!), disgusting.

    What a mockery! What a sad day for SA justice !

    Is this judge living in some kind of parallel universe ?!?!?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by soozieqtips View Post
    BIB - there's just no making sense of that at all. To be honest, I feel a bit sick about the whole thing. The 'broken' and 'devastated' OP managing a little grin when the judge agreed to a 20km radius for his travels. The dirty look he gave Nel when Nel correctly pointed out he was now a convicted murderer. And the laugh he shared with Roux? I was hoping to see a little more humility but no. There he was. The same "I'm a star. I always win" attitude.
    Spot on. Exactly how I feel watching him.
    He doesn't give a **** about the justice system, he didn't give a **** about a humans live. And he feels entitled to do so - that, in my view is the worst of all.
    It is SO sickening !!!! How can it be that these judges are fooled to such an extent

  7. #37
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    I've had enough of this now. Time this creature got what he deserves. He needs to be made to pay for every smirk as well.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjitty View Post
    I think the criticisms of Nel are quite unfair

    We can see the judge was well minded to grant bail and OP has had bail right throughout these proceedings except for when he was sentenced for CH

    I agree it seems ridiculous - I would have expected jail in other countries.

    But I really don't see what Nel as prosecutor can do differently - and anyway, OP is fortunate with the Court break - but he will have to serve his time eventually.

    Unless he is left off by the Con Court - but in that event - he ought not to have served his time.
    I agree that the Judge was seriously unimpressive.

    However, I do think it sends out mixed messages, on the one hand, for the State to do everything possible to emphasise the serious criminality of OP's conduct, but then, on the other, to proceed to agree to a lighweight punishment like house arrest.

    I wonder what the SCA makes of this outcome, after it took such pains to hold OP accountable.

    Perhaps, as you say, Nel was in a difficult position. I presume that he may have been trying to avoid the prospect of an order for costs against the State, which might have happened, had there been a fully contested, but, ultimately unsuccessful, bail application.

    What is absolutely certain is that justice is not being seen to be done. IMO, this outcome is an insult to Reeva's parents - the message being that their daughter's life wasn't even worth a couple of years of OP's.

  9. #39
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    It was good to see Mr. Pistorius a little bit brighter than when he was in trial. It would be good to see him get stronger emotionally as he has now had sufficient time to mourn the loss of Reeva Steenkamp and come to terms with his hand in her unfortunate demise.

    It was obvious that a broken medicated and remorseful Mr. Pistorius was unable to properly defend himself against a rabid prosecutor in the first trial.

    With Mr. Pistorius now studying law and appreciating his hard work ethic and considering the free time he will have to study and learn, I believe he will be bringing much litigation against people both in the court system and those who defamed him in the press and on the internet.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherwell View Post
    I've had enough of this now. Time this creature got what he deserves. He needs to be made to pay for every smirk as well.
    Agreed. What's the plan?


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noisy Fan View Post
    It was good to see Mr. Pistorius a little bit brighter than when he was in trial. It would be good to see him get stronger emotionally as he has now had sufficient time to mourn the loss of Reeva Steenkamp and come to terms with his hand in her unfortunate demise.

    It was obvious that a broken medicated and remorseful Mr. Pistorius was unable to properly defend himself against a rabid prosecutor in the first trial.

    With Mr. Pistorius now studying law and appreciating his hard work ethic and considering the free time he will have to study and learn, I believe he will be bringing much litigation against people both in the court system and those who defamed him in the press and on the internet.
    BBM

    Fortunate, then, that he didn't have to.

  12. #42
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjitty View Post
    I think the criticisms of Nel are quite unfair

    We can see the judge was well minded to grant bail and OP has had bail right throughout these proceedings except for when he was sentenced for CH

    I agree it seems ridiculous - I would have expected jail in other countries.

    But I really don't see what Nel as prosecutor can do differently - and anyway, OP is fortunate with the Court break - but he will have to serve his time eventually.

    Unless he is left off by the Con Court - but in that event - he ought not to have served his time.
    Thank God for some sense among the hysteria.

    As you said earlier Nel has just won a landmark ruling in the SCA albeit with the help of James Grant, but the credit is mostly his as lead advocate of the prosecution team.

    Nel had Oscar nailed from the beginning despite Roux preparing Oscar perfectly. People with a highly empathic disposition are often targeted by sociopaths and Masipa and assessor Janet Henzen Du Toit got the full works at the beginning of the trial. Roux would have known their vulnerabilities and Oscar was prepared for it perfectly and as an out and out sociopath, the perfect man to do it. Dr Jane & Tim McGregor, here in the UK, did some great work on this field of psychology and called it "the empathy trap". Masipa and Du Toit were lambs to the slaughter and this was exacerbated by the snake oil salesman Roux and his machiavellian ministrations.

    Against this background Nel enters the fray and in one day of cross examination, like Jesus anger at the moneychangers in the temple, he tells him he is a hypocrite, a liar, and rotten to the core and throws his whole charade of an apology and his version(s) in to the gutter where it belonged.

    From the moment he stood and adjusted his robe, all of us watching with our hearts in our mouth he didn't waste one second getting down to business in what was a relentless cross-examination:

    Nel: "You killed a person. You killed Reeva Steenkamp, that's what you did. You shot and killed her. "Say 'Yes' - say 'I killed Reeva Steenkamp'."

    Pistorius: "I have a responsibility to Reeva and myself to tell the truth."

    Nel: "You will not hide things from the court."

    Pistorius: "I'm human, I have faults, I have sins. I'm a Christian. The Lord came down to this world for people who have sinned."

    Nel: "As a Christian you will not lie."

    Pistorius: "The discharge was accidental. I believed there was someone in the toilet coming out to attack me. I never intended to shoot anyone ... I went to the bathroom and felt in danger. I didn't have much time to think. I just discharged my firearm. I didn't intend to shoot someone. I shot out of fear. I didn't shoot at someone. I didn't intend to kill anyone...I didn't have time to think about what I was doing. I had finger on my trigger. I didn't intend to shoot anyone. I fired before I had a moment to comprehend what was happening."

    Nel: "Was the only way out for you to shoot an intruder?"

    Pistorius: "I didn't have time to think or not think about shooting an intruder. My life was in danger and I was worried what could happen to Reeva. People had been tied up on the estate before. Before thinking I fired four shots. When I realised the scale of what was happening I stopped firing. It was an accident, the way I discharged the firearm. I didn't intend to shoot."

    Nel had hounded him all day, switching from one topic to another, leading us to cry out- Just get to the bloody point! All the time he was softening him up. He knew Oscar was a sociopath and forced him into lie after lie and brought together what seemed like a bewildering mess of threads into a scalpel-sharp accusation at the end of the day. Was that the only way out for you to shoot an intruder? This was a massively important piece of testimony for Pistorius and a critical component of the trial. Here's why.

    Pistorius was convicted of murder because it was shown that he intended to kill - period. It doesn't matter who - just that he intended to kill someone and that the force he used was disproportionately excessive given the circumstances.

    Remember, in order to make out the charge of murder against Pistorius, it had to be shown that he had the requisite intent to kill and followed through on that intent. Pistorius wanted to avoid a murder conviction and look to settle on a lesser charge of culpable homicide, which meant killing someone by accident.

    So despite firing four shots through a locked bathroom door at 3am, Pistorius repeatedly declared that he "didn't intend to shoot anyone" and the discharge was an "accident". These statements were designed to establish that Pistorius lacked the intent needed to make out a conviction of murder.

    Parts of Pistorius' testimony shows that he was well prepared by Roux. He hit on the key legal points in ordinary English.

    However, the issue of plausibility remained. As Nel pointed out, "was the only way out for you to shoot the intruder?". For example, he could have grabbed Reeva and fled. He could have taken up a defensive position and called for the intruder to get out. He could have hidden in a cupboard or barricaded himself in another room. He did none of these things. He went full on assault mode and hunted down the intruder and he fired a pre-loaded, high calibre, zombie-stopping weapon, not once, but four times, switching position and aim throughout.

    For all of Roux's charm, eloquence, sharp legal brain and command of English, he whined, pleaded, exhorted, pontificated for weeks in that courtroom but it was the sometimes awkward, incogent, pitbull Nel who brutally led Pistorius and his family on a merry dance that day and asked him a seemingly inconsequential question that barely registered a comment. But it was as a rapier to the heart of Pistorius' defence. There's a saying in Latin: Fides et Ratio... Faith and Reason. I've always had faith in Nell and his reasoning has been tested in the crucible of the SCA. For me he is a hero. I care not for his seemingly poor command of English, or his awkward deference when before a judge and I join you as one of his many apologists. Fides et ratio people!! As Mr Jitty rightly said, he has to do his time eventually.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Connelly View Post
    Thank God for some sense among the hysteria.

    As you said earlier Nel has just won a landmark ruling in the SCA albeit with the help of James Grant, but the credit is mostly his as lead advocate of the prosecution team.

    Nel had Oscar nailed from the beginning despite Roux preparing Oscar perfectly. People with a highly empathic disposition are often targeted by sociopaths and Masipa and assessor Janet Henzen Du Toit got the full works at the beginning of the trial. Roux would have known their vulnerabilities and Oscar was prepared for it perfectly and as an out and out sociopath, the perfect man to do it. Dr Jane & Tim McGregor, here in the UK, did some great work on this field of psychology and called it "the empathy trap". Masipa and Du Toit were lambs to the slaughter and this was exacerbated by the snake oil salesman Roux and his machiavellian ministrations.

    Against this background Nel enters the fray and in one day of cross examination, like Jesus anger at the moneychangers in the temple, he tells him he is a hypocrite, a liar, and rotten to the core and throws his whole charade of an apology and his version(s) in to the gutter where it belonged.

    From the moment he stood and adjusted his robe, all of us watching with our hearts in our mouth he didn't waste one second getting down to business in what was a relentless cross-examination:

    Nel: "You killed a person. You killed Reeva Steenkamp, that's what you did. You shot and killed her. "Say 'Yes' - say 'I killed Reeva Steenkamp'."

    Pistorius: "I have a responsibility to Reeva and myself to tell the truth."

    Nel: "You will not hide things from the court."

    Pistorius: "I'm human, I have faults, I have sins. I'm a Christian. The Lord came down to this world for people who have sinned."

    Nel: "As a Christian you will not lie."

    Pistorius: "The discharge was accidental. I believed there was someone in the toilet coming out to attack me. I never intended to shoot anyone ... I went to the bathroom and felt in danger. I didn't have much time to think. I just discharged my firearm. I didn't intend to shoot someone. I shot out of fear. I didn't shoot at someone. I didn't intend to kill anyone...I didn't have time to think about what I was doing. I had finger on my trigger. I didn't intend to shoot anyone. I fired before I had a moment to comprehend what was happening."

    Nel: "Was the only way out for you to shoot an intruder?"

    Pistorius: "I didn't have time to think or not think about shooting an intruder. My life was in danger and I was worried what could happen to Reeva. People had been tied up on the estate before. Before thinking I fired four shots. When I realised the scale of what was happening I stopped firing. It was an accident, the way I discharged the firearm. I didn't intend to shoot."

    Nel had hounded him all day, switching from one topic to another, leading us to cry out- Just get to the bloody point! All the time he was softening him up. He knew Oscar was a sociopath and forced him into lie after lie and brought together what seemed like a bewildering mess of threads into a scalpel-sharp accusation at the end of the day. Was that the only way out for you to shoot an intruder? This was a massively important piece of testimony for Pistorius and a critical component of the trial. Here's why.

    Pistorius was convicted of murder because it was shown that he intended to kill - period. It doesn't matter who - just that he intended to kill someone and that the force he used was disproportionately excessive given the circumstances.

    Remember, in order to make out the charge of murder against Pistorius, it had to be shown that he had the requisite intent to kill and followed through on that intent. Pistorius wanted to avoid a murder conviction and look to settle on a lesser charge of culpable homicide, which meant killing someone by accident.

    So despite firing four shots through a locked bathroom door at 3am, Pistorius repeatedly declared that he "didn't intend to shoot anyone" and the discharge was an "accident". These statements were designed to establish that Pistorius lacked the intent needed to make out a conviction of murder.

    Parts of Pistorius' testimony shows that he was well prepared by Roux. He hit on the key legal points in ordinary English.

    However, the issue of plausibility remained. As Nel pointed out, "was the only way out for you to shoot the intruder?". For example, he could have grabbed Reeva and fled. He could have taken up a defensive position and called for the intruder to get out. He could have hidden in a cupboard or barricaded himself in another room. He did none of these things. He went full on assault mode and hunted down the intruder and he fired a pre-loaded, high calibre, zombie-stopping weapon, not once, but four times, switching position and aim throughout.

    For all of Roux's charm, eloquence, sharp legal brain and command of English, he whined, pleaded, exhorted, pontificated for weeks in that courtroom but it was the sometimes awkward, incogent, pitbull Nel who brutally led Pistorius and his family on a merry dance that day and asked him a seemingly inconsequential question that barely registered a comment. But it was as a rapier to the heart of Pistorius' defence. There's a saying in Latin: Fides et Ratio... Faith and Reason. I've always had faith in Nell and his reasoning has been tested in the crucible of the SCA. For me he is a hero. I care not for his seemingly poor command of English, or his awkward deference when before a judge and I join you as one of his many apologists. Fides et ratio people!! As Mr Jitty rightly said, he has to do his time eventually.


    What a truely superb piece of writing Paul.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamMunter View Post


    What a truely superb piece of writing Paul.
    Thanks WM! You know what they say though: Even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

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