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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giles View Post
    http://citizen.co.za/899861/npa/

    "The National Prosecuting Authority wanted the prescribed 15-year minimum sentence imposed on murderer Oscar Pistorius.

    “He is convicted of murder, and he is a first offender. Fifteen years is prescribed in terms of the minimum sentencing act as the appropriate sentence for murder,” spokesman Luvuyo Mfaku said outside the North Gauteng High Court on Tuesday.

    “We will argue for the imposition of the 15-year minimum sentence.”

    He added that the prosecution authority had a responsibility to ensure that the law was applied in accordance with the constitution...


    Prosecutor Gerrie Nel earlier told the court that there was no prospect Pistorius’s appeal succeeding."
    I don't quite understand why Nel is arguing for the "minimum sentence" when he stood before this judge and stated by degrees OP's crime was closer to DD than DE - shouldn't he be asking for a sentence closer to the maximum, given his bail argument?

    It did not escape my notice that when OP was standing while the judge was reading the bail decision/conditions that he took a runner's posture, unmoving, head up, shoulders tilted forward...his body language said everything about what his brain was thinking imo - 'if this doesn't go my way, I'll run'.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamMunter View Post


    What a truely superb piece of writing Paul.
    Seconded. It is an excellent post Paul.

    Nothing would convince Masipa that this was murder. Not Pistorius' changing testimony in front of her eyes and his not reasonably possibly true accounts, not his obvious lies about the other charges, not Berger's testimony of the screams of a female in mortal fear as well as a pause in the shots, and many other witnesses of female screams of a person in fear for her life, not the impossibility of his version according to the police evidence of the bedroom scene and his own agreement to the placement of the fan being accurate that changed the next day, not Mangena's evidence of a pause in the shots and of Reeva cowering in a defensive position, not pathologists testimony that Reeva had eaten a few hours before death - NOTHING.

    What Nel achieved at the SCA was truly remarkable given not only the legal hurdles in his way, but that Masipa had not just approached her judgement from the angle that his version may be reasonably possibly true, but had actually entrenched (right word?) his version as a factual finding in her judgement.

    I need to have a look at this new appeal document and see if there is anything in it before I comment on it.
    Last edited by Tortoise; 12-08-2015 at 04:30 PM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Connelly View Post
    Thank God for some sense among the hysteria.

    However, the issue of plausibility remained. As Nel pointed out, "was the only way out for you to shoot the intruder?". For example, he could have grabbed Reeva and fled. He could have taken up a defensive position and called for the intruder to get out. He could have hidden in a cupboard or barricaded himself in another room. He did none of these things. He went full on assault mode and hunted down the intruder and he fired a pre-loaded, high calibre, zombie-stopping weapon, not once, but four times, switching position and aim throughout.
    First off, he did take up a defensive position ... twice ... and told them to get out ... and gave them time to do so. There was no response to either challenge. (understandable given the situation)

    Second, as was just posted a little while back, it takes Mr. Pistoriuis 20 seconds to put on his prosthetics and the open window in the bathroom is only 5 seconds away. You do the math. It is most likely that if there were intruders and if they charged the bedroom they would have gotten there before Mr. Pistorius reached his gun. The bedroom door is locked with the cricket bat jammed against it.

    I will ask you what you would of done? There is a gun right there and you are instantly scared for the safety of both your partner and yourself. If you have no concern for your partner you stay right there with her maybe fumbling with the cricket bat and door, waiting for whomever to rush into the room ... or you suck it up quickly and the best you can you put yourself (despite your disability) between the perceived threat and your partner.

    Every gun used for self defense must be loaded.

    The updated version of you so called zombie stomper is used by many many law enforcement officers everywhere ( except South Africa). Why? Because they are the safest bullet to use. You don't want to kill innocent bystanders. They limit collateral damage by expanding in the intended target therefore losing a lot of their energy. To use anything else would be reckless.

    A 9mm is a middle of the road caliber, not a high calibre hand gun. Most police use them.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noisy Fan View Post
    First off, he did take up a defensive position ... twice ... and told them to get out ... and gave them time to do so. There was no response to either challenge. (understandable given the situation)

    Second, as was just posted a little while back, it takes Mr. Pistoriuis 20 seconds to put on his prosthetics and the open window in the bathroom is only 5 seconds away. You do the math. It is most likely that if there were intruders and if they charged the bedroom they would have gotten there before Mr. Pistorius reached his gun. The bedroom door is locked with the cricket bat jammed against it.

    I will ask you what you would of done? There is a gun right there and you are instantly scared for the safety of both your partner and yourself. If you have no concern for your partner you stay right there with her maybe fumbling with the cricket bat and door, waiting for whomever to rush into the room ... or you suck it up quickly and the best you can you put yourself (despite your disability) between the perceived threat and your partner.

    Every gun used for self defense must be loaded.

    The updated version of you so called zombie stomper is used by many many law enforcement officers everywhere ( except South Africa). Why? Because they are the safest bullet to use. You don't want to kill innocent bystanders. They limit collateral damage by expanding in the intended target therefore losing a lot of their energy. To use anything else would be reckless.

    A 9mm is a middle of the road caliber, not a high calibre hand gun. Most police use them.
    This was murder and was most definitely not putative private defence. Why are you rehashing his excuses?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tortoise View Post
    This was murder and was most definitely not putative private defence. Why are you rehashing his excuses?
    I was addressing the posters quote you left out. He suggested a list of things that he thought Mr. Pistorius should have done and was in error as to a few of his assumptions.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noisy Fan View Post
    I was addressing the posters quote you left out. He suggested a list of things that he thought Mr. Pistorius should have done and was in error as to a few of his assumptions.
    I can't be bothered to even entertain his lies as if they were true for the purposes of responding to you.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Connelly View Post
    Thank God for some sense among the hysteria. ...
    PC, if you're not a writer you definitely should be! This is an amazing post on many levels.

    GREAT read!
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. - Gandhi

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tortoise View Post
    I can't be bothered to even entertain his lies as if they were true for the purposes of responding to you.
    I understand completely.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noisy Fan View Post
    First off, he did take up a defensive position ... twice ... and told them to get out ... and gave them time to do so. There was no response to either challenge. (understandable given the situation)

    Second, as was just posted a little while back, it takes Mr. Pistoriuis 20 seconds to put on his prosthetics and the open window in the bathroom is only 5 seconds away. You do the math. It is most likely that if there were intruders and if they charged the bedroom they would have gotten there before Mr. Pistorius reached his gun. The bedroom door is locked with the cricket bat jammed against it.

    I will ask you what you would of done? There is a gun right there and you are instantly scared for the safety of both your partner and yourself. If you have no concern for your partner you stay right there with her maybe fumbling with the cricket bat and door, waiting for whomever to rush into the room ... or you suck it up quickly and the best you can you put yourself (despite your disability) between the perceived threat and your partner.

    Every gun used for self defense must be loaded.

    The updated version of you so called zombie stomper is used by many many law enforcement officers everywhere ( except South Africa). Why? Because they are the safest bullet to use. You don't want to kill innocent bystanders. They limit collateral damage by expanding in the intended target therefore losing a lot of their energy. To use anything else would be reckless.

    A 9mm is a middle of the road caliber, not a high calibre hand gun. Most police use them.
    What would I have done, you ask? That's easy... Not being a sociopath I would have cherished Reeva and I wouldn't have taken umbrage when she chastised me for my sociopathic nature and saw straight through me.

    I would have allowed her to leave that night and not in a fit of pique murdered her and blamed it on an imaginary intruder.

    I would have telephoned for an ambulance before my friends and acquaintances.

    I wouldn't have tried to pick up other girls so soon after Reeva's murder.

    I would have been genuinely remorseful and not fed a crock of bs to the wider world.

    I wouldn't have got a kick out of trying to buy off Reeva's mum and dad and embarrassed them by revealing it in open court.

    I wouldn't have smirked in court today.

    I wouldn't have appointed a PR manager.

    I wouldn't compound my guilt by appealing to the CC and continue to tear apart the soul of my dead girlfriend's parents, family and friends.

    Most of all, I would have enough sense not to ever allow myself to become an apath or an empath to a sociopath. The irony the sociopaths see it as a bigger weakness than I do, that's what attracts them in the first instance. It's why empathic people are always victims of sociopaths.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tortoise View Post
    Seconded. It is an excellent post Paul. ...
    I've never fully understood where things went off the rails with Masipa's judgment. Every explanation I could think of and most that I read, seemed plausible, but none cemented it for me until this one.

    From Paul C's BRILLIANT post #43 (if you haven't read it, don't miss it):

    "Roux would have known their vulnerabilities and Oscar was prepared for it perfectly and as an out and out sociopath, the perfect man to do it. Dr Jane & Tim McGregor, here in the UK, did some great work on this field of psychology and called it "the empathy trap". Masipa and Du Toit were lambs to the slaughter and this was exacerbated by the snake oil salesman Roux and his machiavellian ministrations."

    I got the empathy issue from the start but felt it had to have been more than that. I got the sociopath issue from the start because it's staggering when viewed with clear sight.

    But I hadn't really locked them together.

    It WAS a "trap". Intentional, insidious, calculated manipulation -- breathtaking to behold.

    Those whom the laser focus locked onto had no idea what hit them.

    They still don't.

    That's how it works.
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. - Gandhi


  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Connelly View Post
    What would I have done, you ask? That's easy... Not being a sociopath I would have cherished Reeva and I wouldn't have taken umbrage when she chastised me for my sociopathic nature and saw straight through me.

    I would have allowed her to leave that night and not in a fit of pique murdered her and blamed it on an imaginary intruder.

    I would have telephoned for an ambulance before my friends and acquaintances.

    I wouldn't have tried to pick up other girls so soon after Reeva's murder.

    I would have been genuinely remorseful and not fed a crock of bs to the wider world.

    I wouldn't have got a kick out of trying to buy off Reeva's mum and dad and embarrassed them by revealing it in open court.

    I wouldn't have smirked in court today.

    I wouldn't have appointed a PR manager.

    I wouldn't compound my guilt by appealing to the CC and continue to tear apart the soul of my dead girlfriend's parents, family and friends.

    Most of all, I would have enough sense not to ever allow myself to become an apath or an empath to a sociopath. The irony the sociopaths see it as a bigger weakness than I do, that's what attracts them in the first instance. It's why empathic people are always victims of sociopaths.

    Nice deflection.

    I mean specifically in that situation, what would you have done?

    You brought it up in the post I quoted.

    I will let you off the hook if you like.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noisy Fan View Post
    First off, he did take up a defensive position ... twice ... and told them to get out ... and gave them time to do so. There was no response to either challenge. (understandable given the situation)

    Second, as was just posted a little while back, it takes Mr. Pistoriuis 20 seconds to put on his prosthetics and the open window in the bathroom is only 5 seconds away. You do the math. It is most likely that if there were intruders and if they charged the bedroom they would have gotten there before Mr. Pistorius reached his gun. The bedroom door is locked with the cricket bat jammed against it.

    I will ask you what you would of done? There is a gun right there and you are instantly scared for the safety of both your partner and yourself. If you have no concern for your partner you stay right there with her maybe fumbling with the cricket bat and door, waiting for whomever to rush into the room ... or you suck it up quickly and the best you can you put yourself (despite your disability) between the perceived threat and your partner.

    Every gun used for self defense must be loaded.

    The updated version of you so called zombie stomper is used by many many law enforcement officers everywhere ( except South Africa). Why? Because they are the safest bullet to use. You don't want to kill innocent bystanders. They limit collateral damage by expanding in the intended target therefore losing a lot of their energy. To use anything else would be reckless.

    A 9mm is a middle of the road caliber, not a high calibre hand gun. Most police use them.
    Oh dear.

    A) Told who to "get out"? There were no intruders...it was his girlfriend in the toilet. Was she supposed to "get out"?

    He didn't give anyone a chance to do anything. He tells them to "get out" and then shoots them as soon as they move! How is this giving anyone a chance?

    Did he warn them he was armed and had a gun pointed at the toilet? No. Did he fire a warning shot? No.

    Did he make the slightest, smallest attempt to do what the law demands and find an alternative to murder? Nope.

    B) It takes the murderer 20 seconds to put on his legs. They were right next to him. "Reeva...get the gun, there's someone in the bathroom" would have got him the gun much quicker.

    There was NO reason to hobble round the bed, arm himself and then hobble down a corridor screaming like a stuck pig.

    What would have happened to him if there had been armed intruders in the bathroom, do you think? Do you think they'd have locked themselves in the loo? No, they'd have waited until the screaming-like-a-woman man showed up and shot him dead. That's why his story is so ridiculous.....no one would behave that suicidally. No one.

    C) I would NOT have done what Pistorius did that night. I would have told Reeva to get the gun (she was within reach of it) and covered us both while we left the room & house.

    D) Dunno what you're going on about with the bullets. He knew he had them and he knew exactly what he was firing into that toilet. He wanted to kill and he did.

    I find your apologetics nauseating, quite honestly.

    People here are more interested in the victim than the lies and excuses of the murderer. Just so you know.

  13. #58
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    When taken in total, going back to very start of this forum, there are so many great minds and so many great writers that pass through here, I wish you'd connect, collaborate, and write your own book on this.

    There's no word I can think of right now to describe just how awesome it would be.
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. - Gandhi

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noisy Fan View Post
    I understand completely.
    I would advise you against patronising anyone. It's likely to backfire.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by LemonMousse View Post
    I would advise you against patronising anyone. It's likely to backfire.
    It was an honest answer ... sorry ...

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