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  1. #1
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    Post Isotope stuff: discussion thread

    Basic question: What isotope region would Sand Canyon fall into? (i.e. where the victim was found)
    Any man's death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    Therefore, send not to know, for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.
    ~John Dunne


    #TeamCivilization

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopster View Post
    Basic question: What isotope region would Sand Canyon fall into? (i.e. where the victim was found)
    I know I'm not supposed to discuss, but can I input?

    One:darkest green on Carbuff's map. This would correspond to Detective Marty's notation that the UID had most recently moved to Region 1.

    However, I'm not saying this definitively. Only Detective M would be able to tell us this.

    I would assume also that the isotope info would suggest the UID was killed in Region 1, whether in Lyon county or somewhere else? He couldn't, for instance, have been killed in Region 2 and dumped in Region 1?
    Last edited by RickshawFan; 12-20-2015 at 11:41 PM.

  3. #3
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    Post Isotope stuff: discussion thread

    This thread is for discussion of and questions about the isotope information in http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...orking-Thread*

    Bessie, could you move the last three posts in the non-discussion thread over here, please?

    I'll repost the map here: isotope zones.jpg
    Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)

  4. #4
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    If I'm not supposed to contribute, you can delete this post.

    I got my map out, but I know many nooks and crannies of the west first-hand.

    Generally from Carbuff's map:

    Region 3 is National Parks or the lee flanks of National Parks"
    This includes: Yellowstone-Tetons (WY), Wind River Range (WY), Medicine Bow (WY), Sawtooths (ID), Yosemite-Kings Canyon-Sequoia (CA), Wallowas (OR), Glacier (MT), Rockies (CO)

    Region 2 is very much National Forest and BLM rangeland: mountain flanks, peaks (e.g. Ruby's), and high desert (4000ft+). It is not well-populated: a good place to "disappear" for a while and be hard to find or stay under the radar. There are challenges to being in these areas, e.g. snow.
    Last edited by RickshawFan; 12-21-2015 at 12:46 AM.

  5. #5
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    Thanks carbuff! I didn't want to intermingle commentary with the science stuff, but since isotope mapping is not entirely worked out and still evolving, the commentary (and ground experiences) seems quite vital.

  6. #6
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    I'm thinking it might be helpful to set up the UID's isotope information on a rudimentary timeline. Too bad we don't have a graphic timeline. Oh well.

    All data taken from LE posts. Based on the following dates (italics=may or may not be related to case):

    Skeleton discovered on March 12, 1992
    Abandoned car with OK plates discovered October 1991 (5 months prior)
    Black dog sighted June 1991 (9 months prior)

    The killing was dated 4-14 months prior to discovery (IIRC, but I can't find this reference)

    Matched up with isotope data, which is (quoting LE in Isotope sticky, post #1):

    (1) The individual was traveling within a month prior to his death; and

    (2) Approximately 1 to 1.5 months (4-6 weeks) prior to death, the individual resided
    in a region (“Iso-Region 1”) consistent with the Intermountain West, including
    portions of Lyon County, Nevada; and

    (3) Approximately 1.5 to 2 months (6-9 weeks) prior to death, the individual moved
    to “Iso-Region 1” from a region characterized by a cooler climate (“Iso-Region
    2”); and

    (4) Approximately 2 to 3 months (9-13 weeks) prior to death, the individual had
    moved or traveled through “Iso-Region 2”, an area consistent with more northern
    and higher elevation regions of the Intermountain West, including some isolated
    high elevation portions of Nevada.


    The time frames follow in the next post.
    Last edited by RickshawFan; 12-21-2015 at 02:23 PM.

  7. #7
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    Projected chronologies....

    Using these approximate season designations:
    Winter: Jan-Feb
    Spring: Mar-Apr
    Spring/Summer: May-Jun
    Summer: Jul-Aug
    Fall: Sep-Oct
    Fall/Winter: Nov-Dec

    Moving around: 1 month
    Located in IR1: 4-6 weeks
    Moving IR2 to IR1: 6-9 weeks
    Located in IR2: 9 weeks+


    Killing in Oct 1991:
    Fall: traveling around
    Late summer-early fall: IR1
    Summer: From IR2 to IR1
    Summer: IR2

    Killing in Sep 1991:
    Early fall: traveling around
    Late summer: IR1
    Summer: From IR2 to IR1
    Late spring/summer-early summer: IR2

    Killing in Aug 1991:
    Summer: traveling around
    Early summer: IR1
    Late spring/Summer-early summer: From IR2 to IR1
    Spring/summer: IR2

    Killing in Jul 1991:
    Early summer: traveling around
    Spring/summer: IR1
    Spring/summer: From IR2 to IR1
    Spring: IR2
    Last edited by RickshawFan; 12-21-2015 at 05:23 PM.

  8. #8
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    One scenario above would have the UID hanging out in the very cold (IR2) at the coldest time of year and heading to the less cold (IR1) as it gets milder. This makes sense for a ski bum, but not for a ranch hand.

  9. #9
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    If we're looking at a motorcycle connection, motorbike gangstas seem to me to be a fair weather lot. Unlikely they'd wanna hang out at +10 to -50 in winter, so IR2 in winter? Not so much.

    Which reminds me, did something go down in Sturgis (IR2) in 1991?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickshawFan View Post
    One scenario above would have the UID hanging out in the very cold (IR2) at the coldest time of year and heading to the less cold (IR1) as it gets milder. This makes sense for a ski bum, but not for a ranch hand.
    That would fit with the Heavenly hat, as well. That's at the south end of Lake Tahoe. I get more of an outdoorsman/aging hippie type of person than motorcycle, personally.

    Looking at the nearest places for each zone to where he was found, it looks to me like he could be more or less local, at least for the nine months or so preceding his death.
    Last edited by carbuff; 12-21-2015 at 04:58 PM.
    Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)


  11. #11
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    Is there a motorcycle connection in UID's story? I don't remember seeing that. The shirt & jeans makes me think aging hippie and the hat more outdoorsy.

    Trying to figure out the map. What color is region 1, 2, 3, etc? I see upthread that it is assumed the UID was found in region 1 which is the dark green, is that correct? Do we have GPS coordinates for where he was found?
    Last edited by ClaireNC; 12-21-2015 at 06:30 PM.
    Please be aware that what I type is my opinion.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClaireNC View Post
    Is there a motorcycle connection in UID's story? I don't remember seeing that. The shirt & jeans makes me think aging hippie and the hat more outdoorsy.

    Trying to figure out the map. What color is region 1, 2, 3, etc? I see upthread that it is assumed the UID was found in region 1 which is the dark green, is that correct? Do we have GPS coordinates for where he was found?
    Nothing direct. RickshawFan thought the violence of the crime sounded like motorcycle-gang violence, and it certainly seems like a possible scenario.

    I'm not sure how the numbers line up with the colors on the map. I thought they were referring to the two blue areas.
    Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)

  13. #13
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    Regarding the motorcycle thing, carbuff's explanation for my interest is about right.

    I've had the motorcycle connection as my bee in the bonnet for a while: motorcycle gangs are very active in NV, e.g. the festival in Loughlin. This perspective got enhanced because two of my MP's have been underground for years, plus they were interested in motorbikes. Another close-description MP was in the Bandidos. I would venture to bet that the FBI-wanted MP's have stayed under the radar protected by some nefarious group or other.

    I have personally chatted and camped next to a group of motorcyclists in IR2 Nevada. They were not gangsters: they even showed me their camping rigs. Very tame.... I would definitely not want to be in IR2 NV in the winter, except maybe in town.

    I wonder if they know from hair analysis whether the drinking water intake had chlorine in it and therefore came from a municipal supply.

    I hypothesized a scenario where the UID arrived at the scene on a motorbike. The killer took the motorbike and left the car. I had another scenario where the hands were cut off because they were covered in motor bike gang rings that were hard to remove. And the feet were cut off because after rigor, it would have been impossible to get the boots off. I ventured the possibility that there were knife nicks on the skeleton from removing tattoos. Note: I do not know if there were knife nicks on the skeleton.

    I ventured the possibility that the real estate newspaper section was for identifying potential criminal site(s), not a new home.

    The darkness of my perspective is heavily influenced by the evil I encountered in my MP's. I had a much more benign view of the UID until then.

    I stopped pursuing the hippie theory when motorcycle gangs seemed to come up again and again. Plus, there's all of you to focus on the hippie angle!

    Given the isotope information, the UID evidently wasn't in OK anytime recently (per isotope article), which is where the car came from.

    Most anyone in the Wellington area would have been to Tahoe at some point. Tahoe looks to be dark green (IR1), like Wellington. It's hard not to go to Tahoe if you're in that general area.

    A Tahoe emblazoned hat would not be especially outdoorsy. More someone passing through...trucker? tourist?

    I never associated the hawk T-shirt with hippies. Out west, there were all kinds of T-shirts like that in the 1980's: they weren't especially for hippies. At that time, compare, many people wore tie-dye; they were not hippies.

    Thanks for the extra isotope research articles in the Sticky!
    Last edited by RickshawFan; 12-21-2015 at 09:30 PM.

  14. #14
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    Thanks RickshawFan! Great explanation and information on the motorcycle gangs in the area. I'm a bit of an aging hippie and I definitely wore t-shirts with Native American influenced designs in the late 1980's/early 1990's. Still do occasionally, and I've never stopped wearing tie-dye, either. I'm on the East coast so they aren't something that are sold to tourists around here. Being out west, the hat and t-shirt could both indicate that he was a tourist or somebody new to the area or just passing through.

    Do we know why the isotope analysis is only back for 3 months? Would that be because the hair sample used was only three months worth of growth? Human hair grows on average about 0.5 inch a month, it looks like his hair was longer than 1.5 inches. If his nutrition was poor his hair would grown even slower.
    Please be aware that what I type is my opinion.

  15. #15
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    I asked above about GPS locations. This map shows the approximate location of where the UID was found. I'm going to be away for the rest of the week, so I want to be able to come back to it when I get back.

    Basic Google Maps https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6179...19.2477984,16z

    Google My Maps https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...aQ&usp=sharing
    Please be aware that what I type is my opinion.

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