Isotope stuff: discussion thread

Snoopster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
8,913
Reaction score
24,765
Basic question: What isotope region would Sand Canyon fall into? (i.e. where the victim was found)
 
Basic question: What isotope region would Sand Canyon fall into? (i.e. where the victim was found)

I know I'm not supposed to discuss, but can I input?

One:darkest green on Carbuff's map. This would correspond to Detective Marty's notation that the UID had most recently moved to Region 1.

However, I'm not saying this definitively. Only Detective M would be able to tell us this.

I would assume also that the isotope info would suggest the UID was killed in Region 1, whether in Lyon county or somewhere else? He couldn't, for instance, have been killed in Region 2 and dumped in Region 1?
 
If I'm not supposed to contribute, you can delete this post.

I got my map out, but I know many nooks and crannies of the west first-hand.

Generally from Carbuff's map:

Region 3 is National Parks or the lee flanks of National Parks"
This includes: Yellowstone-Tetons (WY), Wind River Range (WY), Medicine Bow (WY), Sawtooths (ID), Yosemite-Kings Canyon-Sequoia (CA), Wallowas (OR), Glacier (MT), Rockies (CO)

Region 2 is very much National Forest and BLM rangeland: mountain flanks, peaks (e.g. Ruby's), and high desert (4000ft+). It is not well-populated: a good place to "disappear" for a while and be hard to find or stay under the radar. There are challenges to being in these areas, e.g. snow.
 
Thanks carbuff! I didn't want to intermingle commentary with the science stuff, but since isotope mapping is not entirely worked out and still evolving, the commentary (and ground experiences) seems quite vital.
 
I'm thinking it might be helpful to set up the UID's isotope information on a rudimentary timeline. Too bad we don't have a graphic timeline. Oh well.

All data taken from LE posts. Based on the following dates (italics=may or may not be related to case):

Skeleton discovered on March 12, 1992
Abandoned car with OK plates discovered October 1991 (5 months prior)
Black dog sighted June 1991 (9 months prior)

The killing was dated 4-14 months prior to discovery (IIRC, but I can't find this reference)

Matched up with isotope data, which is (quoting LE in Isotope sticky, post #1):

(1) The individual was traveling within a month prior to his death; and

(2) Approximately 1 to 1.5 months (4-6 weeks) prior to death, the individual resided
in a region (“Iso-Region 1”) consistent with the Intermountain West, including
portions of Lyon County, Nevada; and

(3) Approximately 1.5 to 2 months (6-9 weeks) prior to death, the individual moved
to “Iso-Region 1” from a region characterized by a cooler climate (“Iso-Region
2”); and

(4) Approximately 2 to 3 months (9-13 weeks) prior to death, the individual had
moved or traveled through “Iso-Region 2”, an area consistent with more northern
and higher elevation regions of the Intermountain West, including some isolated
high elevation portions of Nevada.


The time frames follow in the next post.
 
Projected chronologies....

Using these approximate season designations:
Winter: Jan-Feb
Spring: Mar-Apr
Spring/Summer: May-Jun
Summer: Jul-Aug
Fall: Sep-Oct
Fall/Winter: Nov-Dec

Moving around: 1 month
Located in IR1: 4-6 weeks
Moving IR2 to IR1: 6-9 weeks
Located in IR2: 9 weeks+


Killing in Oct 1991:
Fall: traveling around
Late summer-early fall: IR1
Summer: From IR2 to IR1
Summer: IR2

Killing in Sep 1991:
Early fall: traveling around
Late summer: IR1
Summer: From IR2 to IR1
Late spring/summer-early summer: IR2

Killing in Aug 1991:
Summer: traveling around
Early summer: IR1
Late spring/Summer-early summer: From IR2 to IR1
Spring/summer: IR2

Killing in Jul 1991:
Early summer: traveling around
Spring/summer: IR1
Spring/summer: From IR2 to IR1
Spring: IR2
 
One scenario above would have the UID hanging out in the very cold (IR2) at the coldest time of year and heading to the less cold (IR1) as it gets milder. This makes sense for a ski bum, but not for a ranch hand.
 
If we're looking at a motorcycle connection, motorbike gangstas seem to me to be a fair weather lot. Unlikely they'd wanna hang out at +10 to -50 in winter, so IR2 in winter? Not so much.

Which reminds me, did something go down in Sturgis (IR2) in 1991?
 
One scenario above would have the UID hanging out in the very cold (IR2) at the coldest time of year and heading to the less cold (IR1) as it gets milder. This makes sense for a ski bum, but not for a ranch hand.

That would fit with the Heavenly hat, as well. That's at the south end of Lake Tahoe. I get more of an outdoorsman/aging hippie type of person than motorcycle, personally.

Looking at the nearest places for each zone to where he was found, it looks to me like he could be more or less local, at least for the nine months or so preceding his death.
 
Is there a motorcycle connection in UID's story? I don't remember seeing that. The shirt & jeans makes me think aging hippie and the hat more outdoorsy.

Trying to figure out the map. What color is region 1, 2, 3, etc? I see upthread that it is assumed the UID was found in region 1 which is the dark green, is that correct? Do we have GPS coordinates for where he was found?
 
Is there a motorcycle connection in UID's story? I don't remember seeing that. The shirt & jeans makes me think aging hippie and the hat more outdoorsy.

Trying to figure out the map. What color is region 1, 2, 3, etc? I see upthread that it is assumed the UID was found in region 1 which is the dark green, is that correct? Do we have GPS coordinates for where he was found?

Nothing direct. RickshawFan thought the violence of the crime sounded like motorcycle-gang violence, and it certainly seems like a possible scenario.

I'm not sure how the numbers line up with the colors on the map. I thought they were referring to the two blue areas.
 
Regarding the motorcycle thing, carbuff's explanation for my interest is about right.

I've had the motorcycle connection as my bee in the bonnet for a while: motorcycle gangs are very active in NV, e.g. the festival in Loughlin. This perspective got enhanced because two of my MP's have been underground for years, plus they were interested in motorbikes. Another close-description MP was in the Bandidos. I would venture to bet that the FBI-wanted MP's have stayed under the radar protected by some nefarious group or other.

I have personally chatted and camped next to a group of motorcyclists in IR2 Nevada. They were not gangsters: they even showed me their camping rigs. Very tame.... I would definitely not want to be in IR2 NV in the winter, except maybe in town.

I wonder if they know from hair analysis whether the drinking water intake had chlorine in it and therefore came from a municipal supply.

I hypothesized a scenario where the UID arrived at the scene on a motorbike. The killer took the motorbike and left the car. I had another scenario where the hands were cut off because they were covered in motor bike gang rings that were hard to remove. And the feet were cut off because after rigor, it would have been impossible to get the boots off. I ventured the possibility that there were knife nicks on the skeleton from removing tattoos. Note: I do not know if there were knife nicks on the skeleton.

I ventured the possibility that the real estate newspaper section was for identifying potential criminal site(s), not a new home.

The darkness of my perspective is heavily influenced by the evil I encountered in my MP's. I had a much more benign view of the UID until then.

I stopped pursuing the hippie theory when motorcycle gangs seemed to come up again and again. Plus, there's all of you to focus on the hippie angle!

Given the isotope information, the UID evidently wasn't in OK anytime recently (per isotope article), which is where the car came from.

Most anyone in the Wellington area would have been to Tahoe at some point. Tahoe looks to be dark green (IR1), like Wellington. It's hard not to go to Tahoe if you're in that general area.

A Tahoe emblazoned hat would not be especially outdoorsy. More someone passing through...trucker? tourist?

I never associated the hawk T-shirt with hippies. Out west, there were all kinds of T-shirts like that in the 1980's: they weren't especially for hippies. At that time, compare, many people wore tie-dye; they were not hippies.

Thanks for the extra isotope research articles in the Sticky!
 
Thanks RickshawFan! Great explanation and information on the motorcycle gangs in the area. I'm a bit of an aging hippie and I definitely wore t-shirts with Native American influenced designs in the late 1980's/early 1990's. Still do occasionally, and I've never stopped wearing tie-dye, either. I'm on the East coast so they aren't something that are sold to tourists around here. Being out west, the hat and t-shirt could both indicate that he was a tourist or somebody new to the area or just passing through.

Do we know why the isotope analysis is only back for 3 months? Would that be because the hair sample used was only three months worth of growth? Human hair grows on average about 0.5 inch a month, it looks like his hair was longer than 1.5 inches. If his nutrition was poor his hair would grown even slower.
 
That would fit with the Heavenly hat, as well. That's at the south end of Lake Tahoe. I get more of an outdoorsman/aging hippie type of person than motorcycle, personally.

Looking at the nearest places for each zone to where he was found, it looks to me like he could be more or less local, at least for the nine months or so preceding his death.

As far as I could tell from maps, the Lake Tahoe area is not IR2? This surprised me, and was the reason I mentioned before that Tahoe was not IR2, so we could rule out a lengthy stay in Tahoe. IR2 would be further south on the backside (i.e. east) of Yosemite? With Yosemite NP being IR3?

However, all this is related to my question about whether you could register an isotope on a day trip. For instance, could you pick up IR3 "dust" from a day's drive through Yosemite? If so, this makes things a little more complicated. I suppose it also means that the "moving about" in the last month before death could be day trips? Outings to get supplies? Apartment hunting? Burglary sites? Stalking missions? (the dark side again.....)
 
Thanks RickshawFan! Great explanation and information on the motorcycle gangs in the area. I'm a bit of an aging hippie and I definitely wore t-shirts with Native American influenced designs in the late 1980's/early 1990's. Still do occasionally, and I've never stopped wearing tie-dye, either. I'm on the East coast so they aren't something that are sold to tourists around here. Being out west, the hat and t-shirt could both indicate that he was a tourist or somebody new to the area or just passing through.

Do we know why the isotope analysis is only back for 3 months? Would that be because the hair sample used was only three months worth of growth? Human hair grows on average about 0.5 inch a month, it looks like his hair was longer than 1.5 inches. If his nutrition was poor his hair would grown even slower.

Great question on the hair length. Maybe the 3 month limit reflects something as simple as a budget issue? You pay extra for longer analysis?

I had several tie dye outfits in the 1980's. And I was very proper. But I lived out west, and there were hippie markets everywhere, and tie dye is fun! "Everyone" wore tie dye..... i don't have any of those outfits left ...:tantrum:
 
As far as I could tell from maps, the Lake Tahoe area is not IR2? This surprised me, and was the reason I mentioned before that Tahoe was not IR2, so we could rule out a lengthy stay in Tahoe. IR2 would be further south on the backside (i.e. east) of Yosemite? With Yosemite NP being IR3?

However, all this is related to my question about whether you could register an isotope on a day trip. For instance, could you pick up IR3 "dust" from a day's drive through Yosemite? If so, this makes things a little more complicated. I suppose it also means that the "moving about" in the last month before death could be day trips? Outings to get supplies? Apartment hunting? Burglary sites? Stalking missions? (the dark side again.....)

Any of those are possible.

Lake Tahoe itself appears to be another, lower-elevation zone, but it looks to me like that east-of-Yosemite zone includes the mountains at the south end of the lake. Very hard to tell, though. But I wasn't thinking that he would necessarily have acquired the hat in the previous three months; it was just an indicator to me that he could have been a frequent visitor or resident of someplace not far from where he was found.
 
I thought maybe he was a hitchhiker/transient and stole the hat and tshirt from a rest area gift shop out of necessity (if so, the "necessity" of a hat would likely be to block the sun during hiking or something).

I have no reasons for thinking this, just a completely random thought/gut feeling.

I would like to know how long a person must be exposed to an area to "collect" the isotopes as others have asked already. And what exactly do they come from? I'm way out of the loop here. I know they used this kind of analysis on Deer Island Jane Doe and found she was from right there in the Boston area, and then it turned out to be correct once she was identified. So this seems like a valid and important angle to work. But do they come from just living in a place? From what you eat? From what actually physically touches your skin? I don't understand this quite yet.
 
Also, did the skeleton's leg bones support the association with the size 33x36 jeans found in the moving blanket nearby? I don't recall. What about the isotopes on the moving blanket? Did that travel with him or was it from a totally different area (which might suggest it was brought in by the killer during/after the murder rather than being his own that he was using for cover)?
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
158
Guests online
1,219
Total visitors
1,377

Forum statistics

Threads
589,939
Messages
17,927,961
Members
228,008
Latest member
redeworker
Back
Top