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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Noatak View Post
    My opinions only, no facts here:

    What do I really know? What does anyone here really know when the authorities possess ALL of the factual, or at least the ‘legally-admissible’ evidence and have been unusually tight-lipped for three years? I have talked about most of this before on Websleuths, so let me try to refer to previous posts by me and expand a bit.

    Look, the authorities may have iron-clad DNA for all we know and all three incarcerated suspects may plead guilty tomorrow. I find it remarkable that in a potential death-penalty case, that the three incarcerated suspects have not already made a guilty-plea for a life sentence to avoid the “chair”. If this case makes it to trial in mid-2017, I will assume that the three incarcerated suspects actually believe that they are not guilty. I want to clear up some misconceptions here, in the spirit of discussion. The idea that Prosecutors seek ultimate revenge (including the death penalty) for its own sake flies in the face of reality. Prosecutors make ‘deal-deals’, as per the recommendation of Don Rickles near the end of the movie “Kelly’s Heroes”. In 2013, 97% of non-dismissed Federal criminal charges were settled with plea-deals (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014...-plead-guilty/). I have every reason to believe that the three incarcerated suspects in the Holly Bobo case have been offered deals to plead guilty. Prosecutors are VERY practical. They rarely, if ever, pursue the death penalty if a suspect will make a plea of guilty, even in egregious cases: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/26/justice/ohio-castro/. In fact, if the death penalty is allowed in a trial, there is an almost 400% increase in plea deals for murder vs. murder trials where the death penalty is not allowed (e.g. the scientific study at www.cjlf.org/publications/papers/wpaper09-01.pdf). Prosecutors are very aware of this situation and commonly seek a plea-deal from suspects to avoid the death penalty and quickly close the case. This is the Prosecutors’ hole-card. Unfortunately, innocent people also may plead guilty to avoid a potential death-penalty. This is one drawback.

    In some criminal cases, a tipping-point is reached, where the prosecutors cannot turn back. One possible example of this phenomenon can be found at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolando_Cruz_case, eventually involving three men, Cruz, Hernandez and Buckley. This case has all of the elements- prior criminal record, usual suspects, pressured confession, attempts to get the reward, desperate authorities, etc. Anyway, all three men were INNOCENT, as history has proved. You might conclude, OK, the Rolando Cruz case is an exceptional rarity; an example of abuse that can never be exceeded. Well, then remember my excerpt from 8-01-2014: “Well in the Wenatchee child abuse case, different grand juries had to approve of or at least generally sympathize with 43 indictments of citizens and 29,726 charges on behalf of 60 victims. This goes infinitely beyond indicting a ham sandwich, when you consider how history has exonerated the whole kit-and-kaboodle of suspects in this case. And now the state is paying millions to settle lawsuits, with many more to come.”

    OK, back to the main issues at hand. Either after the Jan. 28, 2014 FBI state-wide drug sweep or after the Feb. 26, 2014 Camden incident that followed the earlier fresh-water pearl-heist (see my timeline for more details), somebody arrested may have began singing like a canary, maybe to get a better deal for themselves. This is when the older brother suspect (the “main suspect”) could have become a primary investigative target in the Holly Bobo case. There was an immediate need to put him ‘on ice’ and this led to his arrest on an unrelated assault charge (of his then-girlfriend) by March, 2014 (charges later dropped!). Since the bond was set at a MILLION DOLLARS for a simple aggravated assault charge (possibly an all-time record), it seems clear to me that the authorities wished to keep the “main suspect” on ice until they were ready to charge him with the murder of Holly Bobo. The excessive-bail clause of the 8th amendment to the Constitution is worth a read. See http://www.wsmv.com/story/24871331/b...search-warrant to show that the million-dollar bond PRECEDED the later murder charge. My gut-feeling about all of these developments is that while on drugs, the “main suspect” bragged (truthfully or untruthfully) to someone (in late 2013 through early 2014) about involvement with the Holly Bobo murder case. And that ‘someone’ made a deal with the police to avoid a longer potential sentence for their own unrelated criminal offenses.

    The Dec. 16, 2013 announcement of a consolidated $250,000 reward in the Holly Bobo case may have had unintended consequences (after all, the road-to-Hell is paved with good intentions). For example, we have a guy who claimed to know where the body was but could not deliver (and later committed suicide). In my opinion, he had no association with, or meaningful inside knowledge about the crime. There was a claim by a woman that she had seen an incriminating cell-phone video of Holly being abused after her kidnapping and thus enter the potential tragedies of the un-indicted “cell-phone brothers”. The cell-phone story does not work for me. Besides, if authorities have located this cell-phone video, they will certainly not need 200,000 pages of evidence OR 600 witnesses. And who knows how many other “tips” authorities had to sift through from people looking for attention or hoping to win the lottery or buy a shorter sentence for themselves? Voluntary false confessions (http://www.jaapl.org/content/37/3/332.long) are recognized, if not expected in high-profile criminal cases. I have studied these types of confessions and opine that the false confessors are seeking rewards, attention, recognition, evidence of power, or to fulfill a fantasy of committing a crime that they strongly desire to do but lack the will to do.

    The land of the two incarcerated brothers was said (by neighbors?) to have been searched very early on after Holly’s disappearance and nothing was found at that time that would lead to an arrest. This, if true, cannot be ignored. It may indicate that authorities were on the correct track from day one. But remember, NOTHING justifying an arrest was found on their land at that time AND authorities also investigated a boatload of other local POI’s around the same early time period. What about these other guys? Who are these guys? Why were they excluded?

    Of the three currently-incarcerated suspects, I believe that the big guy may be able to show that he was out-of-town when the crime occurred. And frankly, as one man looking at another man, he does not turn my crank as a good solid suspect. Like when you drag a net for minnows and you accidentally snag a whale, and call the whale a minnow. At this very late date in time, even if the authorities feel he is definitely uninvolved, releasing him could jeopardize their entire case. He is along for the ride at this point, regardless. It is what it is. The younger of the two incarcerated suspect brothers is said by his relatives to have learning disabilities (I believe this, from my research) and could theoretically be coerced into making many sorts of claims in a high-pressure police interview (particularly in prison without counsel present). This is probably why the police went after him first- he was viewed as the weakest link in all ways. In many aspects, he could ironically be the worst nightmare for the prosecution at a trial during cross-examination by the Defense. I have posted previously about the possibility that his stories have changed with time (he said some things under pressure during a police-interview to get out of prison, and then would not ‘play ball’ with authorities and was unceremoniously dumped back into the system as punishment).

    The older of the two arrested brothers (the kingpin and “main and original suspect”) supposedly posted a seemingly-incriminating photo and caption of himself on-line (around Dec. 2013), many months before he was arrested. Is this really what guilty people (who are not yet named-suspects) do? I personally saw this post as a cruel joke in very poor-taste, but not as a valid-claim of true guilt OR future evidence of guilt. Regardless, if he actually made this post, to say it was a huge mistake on his part would be an equally huge understatement. Mistakes like this get you ‘hung’, regardless of guilt or innocence. Naivety, driven by ego, bravado, and drug-use is the worst mistake of all, and commonly results in conviction. Better to be a fool and keep your mouth shut, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!

    OK, I love everyone here at Websleuths all to death, but let us move on in an impassive Mr. Spock-like fashion. The ONLY potential material witness to the kidnapping in this case who is not a suspect (Holly’s brother) described the kidnapper in this fashion: “Well, I stated originally and never wavered from the description of the man being approximately 5`10 and 200 pounds”, at http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1108/04/ijvm.01.html
    Please do not get hung up on whether Holly’s brother made an incorrect estimation of the actual kidnapping suspect (maybe the suspect was actually 7 foot tall and weighed 500 pounds or was 4 feet tall and weighed 80 pounds and Holly’s brother could not determine the difference). I prefer not to insult this material witness by implying that he cannot determine the height/weight-difference between his own sister and a person who is shoulder-to-shoulder with her outside his own window. I must take Holly’s brother at his word (if the CNN transcript is correct) and regardless, prior statements can be entered in a future trial as EVIDENCE. This IS the internet age, and all juries know that. I previously posted an image corrected for scale of the incarcerated “big guy” and the “older brother suspect” and the “mystery man” at: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/att...6&d=1409900036 Note that in this image, the actual described (by the only material witness-Holly’s brother) suspect is on the far right (the “mystery man”). I have based the “mystery man” upon a real-life active non-obese male of the described height and weight, relative to Holly Bobo. Of the three incarcerated suspects, only the younger brother may be of the approximate height of the “mystery man”, BUT in my opinion alone, he is much too skinny to fit the weight-profile of the “mystery man”. The “mystery man” as described by the material witness does not soundly or convincingly fit ANY of the three incarcerated suspects in the Holly Bobo case (and it does not matter if you agree- the Defense will likely point this out to a jury). BUT, there are other young local men the police should think about who could easily fit the right-hand “mystery man” profile in my previously-posted image, above. I have names; the police have names. And the Defense can pursue these names in a trial-setting to cast reasonable doubts. Also, if I were working for the Defense, I would point out that whomever grabbed Holly knew well the habits, timing, and manners of the Bobo household far better than any of the three incarcerated suspects could possibly know. However, let us pretend that the three incarcerated suspects are factually guilty, but did not know the manners of the Bobo household. This would indicate a fourth conspirator, a mastermind; someone well-acquainted with the manners of the Bobo household, who possessed a true motive and convinced the suspects to carry out the crime. But now we would be up to FOUR potential suspects. Simple snatch-and-grab crimes should not involve a potential conspiracy larger than the JFK assassination! I would prefer two suspects. For example, what if there was a troubled woman who felt slighted by Holly or was insanely jealous of her, and played a part in promoting the kidnapping scheme to another male who knew the manners of the Bobo household? Then we would only have the hypothetical troubled woman and the single witnessed male kidnapper. Two people only. Again, I am not saying that this is my favored theory, but this represents the kind of story a clever Defense could and should propose in court, with names.

    The grandfather of the two incarcerated brothers lives full-time on the same property where Holly Bobo was purportedly held for a time. From my post of 6-11-2015, I excerpt: “My problem is that the Adams’ family Grandfather (who seems sincere, cooperative, and sharp) LIVES ON THE SAME PROPERTY and apparently saw nothing unusual going on after Holly was kidnapped. The Grandfather is naturally supportive of his younger relatives, BUT also was the first to call the police whenever they got out-of-hand. He could represent a problem for the prosecution if he did not witness a single anomaly on the property in the days after Holly disappeared.” The Defense could expand upon this detail, right? In fact, you should definitely read my entire post at http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ests*-7/page33, post #487. I try to keep my posts entertaining and RELEVANT, and this is a sensible and representative example. This post also refers to the incarcerated younger brother’s initial release from prison and return to jail for not ‘playing ball’.

    There is something odd about the timing of the discovery of Holly Bobo’s remains. This would require an entire new post to explain, so let me simply repost what I have earlier said on Websleuths about the discovery of her remains:

    “I have previously acknowledged that it is possible that Holly's remains were moved (once). If this happened, I still doubt that she was originally in a well on the main suspect's property. Even a fool would not put, for example, a deer in their own water supply. Another problem is that after three years in a well, the ability to recover 100% of the remains (for removal to another location) is quite unlikely. The pertinent wells were searched by authorities, and if the authorities are to be believed, they did not initially find partial remains in those wells. But, let us pretend that the suspects in 2014 got scared that the authorities would discover the remains and moved them to a "SAFER" place. Yeah, a much safer place, right on top of the ground with a plastic bucket too! (remember that if the remains were recently moved, we cannot talk about them having been buried at the new location). This is crazy- suspects do not move damning evidence to more conspicuous locations! Even barely-rational suspects would have re-buried the remains at least 3 feet down (maybe 15-20 minutes of shovel work) and the remains would have never been found. In my opinion, if Holly's remains were dug-up and moved to the discovery location with the intent to hide them better, this did not happen in 2014. This is unfortunately, NOT a Sherlock Holmes moment, where all but one possibility has been eliminated. Based upon what I said above, here are some of the avenues that I would explore further:
    1) Holly was placed there on or about the day of the abduction, shallowly buried, and skeletal remains were later dug up by animals. The bucket was coincidentally left there by a ginseng hunter when the remains were not yet visible at the surface.
    2) Holly was placed there on or about the day of the abduction, shallowly buried, and skeletal remains were later dug up by animals. The bucket was placed there so the location could be found again to move the remains OR the bucket represented a "headstone monument" because of remorse by the perpetrator(s).
    3) skeletal remains (from an earlier burial location) and a bucket were placed at the same time; the bucket was added as a visual clue in the hopes that the remains would be more quickly found by ginseng hunters or another outdoorsman. The convenient and serendipitous timing of the discovery of the remains could suggest that a clever unnamed lone-wolf perpetrator took advantage of all the arrests and disinterred the remains and placed them where they could be discovered and strengthen the authorities' present cases.
    4) skeletal remains IN a bucket (collected from another location) were placed there as a deliberate taunt. In this scenario, the remains could have been placed not long after the abduction (remains from a fire pit) OR re-transported there from another burial location, years after the abduction. The bucket was then knocked over and skeletal contents scattered by animals.
    5) just to keep you thinking, the skeletal remains (from a fire pit around the time of the abduction, or years later from an original grave site) were placed UNDER an overturned bucket to protect them from the elements. This tenuous scenario would imply some sort of remorse by the perpetrator(s).
    6) or maybe, our understanding of the true details of the discovery of Holly's remains is flawed.
    But, as Richard Nixon would say, let me make one thing perfectly clear: if Holly's remains were placed upon the surface so as to be deliberately discovered by another, it is either a taunt, a false-flag (by the true suspect), or remorse and guilt by the perpetrator(s).”

    I received considerable flak from some internet friends after previously posting the above analysis, and I still puzzle about why this occurred. That is to say- I think I covered most of the rational interpretations about her remains, based upon the scant information about the discovery of Holly’s remains.

    Look, this post could quickly become larger than my previously-posted detailed timeline for this important case if I do not shut up pretty soon! For the purposes of my research, this may all come down to the cell-phone evidence. If the cell-phone evidence exists as un-officially reported, there could be a real problem with everything we think that we know. If not, there is no problem and we all can move on to watching the three incarcerated suspects face trial with poorly-funded public Defense and with a very modest chance of winning a scientifically-based verdict. Case-closed and we can all slap each other on the back and move on. So, what is it about the cell phone evidence that confuses me? Every other detail of this case, including the snatch-and-grab aspect of the kidnapping, the location of the remains (could have been placed on the morning of the crime), and the quick disposal of the Gooch Road evidence, suggests a somewhat-intelligent very fast-paced strategy for the perpetrators. The perpetrators do the evil job and go home. Now the perpetrators are home-free and can disappear into the shadows (or under a rock where they belong). Then, out of the blue, possibly many days later, we supposedly have Holly’s cell-phone magically appearing near her College, as if intended to implicate another student attending there. I have tried to explain this conundrum before here, and I feel that I have not explained it properly. So let me try again: in the old days the most damning evidence was a gun or knife or club. In the modern era, the most dangerous evidence by far is the cell phone (or tablet). So, as damning evidence goes, a gun, knife, or club of the past = a cell phone or tablet in the present. Moving on, pretend that the perpetrators have successfully covered their tracks within two hours regarding the victim and her lunch-purse, books, etc. But her cell phone, the size of 1/3 of a sandwich stops the perpetrators in their tracks. How can we get rid of this immense object? We have successfully hidden the victim, her lunch, books and whatever, but this damning and super-giant cell phone has ruined our scheme! It cannot be hidden or destroyed! Thus, we must NOT burn this phone in a wood-stove, throw it in a river, smash it into tiny bits and eat it, bury it a foot deep underground at some random location, or dump it in a lake or into the storm drains. NO, we must place this un-damaged cell phone close to Holly’s college and upon the ground surface where it will absolutely and most certainly be found. I hope that readers now understand why I am uneasy about the claims that Holly’s cell phone was recovered at all, let alone near her College. If Holly’s cell phone was NOT recovered near her College, this could be an outside job by crazed amateurs and one insider. If Holly’s cell phone WAS actually recovered near her college, there is something rotten about the whole story, something more sinister. Potentially, very sinister.

    Everything above represents my opinions only and is not prejudiced towards any particular person or persons, named or unnamed.

    What a fascinating case.

    Sleuth On!
    Very interesting. Thanks.

    I do think the bucket explanations are very possible and I appreciate reading those theories as I had not read that before about possible reasons for the bucket. Some of those theories are likely why the bucket was there. I do agree IMO.

    That bucket was giving me trouble until now.

    One other possible reason for the bucket if the bucket dropper was part of disposing Hollys remains is the person was using them to transfer remains to a new spot to avoid the heat from LE and were rudely interrupted by someone else and they had to run away and was afraid to ever go back. But I tend to think some of your theories about the bucket could be more correct. Like if someone else like a Ginseng hunter had stumbled upon the remains and left their bucket there as a marker to later go back and find where they were. Then maybe decided never to tell LE or anyone else because they were afraid they may get blamed or something.

    Interesting theories and overall a good well thought out post about the case. Thank You.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Noatak View Post
    My opinions only, no facts here:

    As I can best recall, I developed, downloaded to Websleuths, and extensively-discussed the detailed McStay Family timeline. I have searched for my previous detailed timeline post many times on Websleuths and can no longer locate it, to link-to here. It seems to have gone away. I plead with the mods here; kindly tell me where my previous timeline-post is or tell me where to repost my McStay Family timeline on Websleuths.

    In my judgment, it took at least two men to carry out the McStay crime. The actual hitman, or at least the co-conspirator, may well have passed back into Mexico. The lone arrested suspect in the McStay case is a very-usual suspect, but he may be innocent. I understand fully why he was arrested and why he demands a speedy trial, but that is neither here nor there.

    There is a lot more I wish to say; the factual nature of the homicides: head-blows, vs. the requirements for the initial kidnapping of the entire family (a gun); but I am already way off-topic on this thread, so I must leave it at this.

    Sleuth On!
    Is this the timeline (post #772) you're looking for, Mr. Noatak?

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...40#post7993640

    It's in the closed McStay Family discussion forum:

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/for...ussion-Threads

  3. #48
    SteveS is offline Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Noatak View Post
    For the purposes of my research, this may all come down to the cell-phone evidence. If the cell-phone evidence exists as un-officially reported, there could be a real problem with everything we think that we know. If not, there is no problem and we all can move on to watching the three incarcerated suspects face trial with poorly-funded public Defense and with a very modest chance of winning a scientifically-based verdict. Case-closed and we can all slap each other on the back and move on. So, what is it about the cell phone evidence that confuses me? Every other detail of this case, including the snatch-and-grab aspect of the kidnapping, the location of the remains (could have been placed on the morning of the crime), and the quick disposal of the Gooch Road evidence, suggests a somewhat-intelligent very fast-paced strategy for the perpetrators. The perpetrators do the evil job and go home. Now the perpetrators are home-free and can disappear into the shadows (or under a rock where they belong). Then, out of the blue, possibly many days later, we supposedly have Holly’s cell-phone magically appearing near her College, as if intended to implicate another student attending there. I have tried to explain this conundrum before here, and I feel that I have not explained it properly. So let me try again: in the old days the most damning evidence was a gun or knife or club. In the modern era, the most dangerous evidence by far is the cell phone (or tablet). So, as damning evidence goes, a gun, knife, or club of the past = a cell phone or tablet in the present. Moving on, pretend that the perpetrators have successfully covered their tracks within two hours regarding the victim and her lunch-purse, books, etc. But her cell phone, the size of 1/3 of a sandwich stops the perpetrators in their tracks. How can we get rid of this immense object? We have successfully hidden the victim, her lunch, books and whatever, but this damning and super-giant cell phone has ruined our scheme! It cannot be hidden or destroyed! Thus, we must NOT burn this phone in a wood-stove, throw it in a river, smash it into tiny bits and eat it, bury it a foot deep underground at some random location, or dump it in a lake or into the storm drains. NO, we must place this un-damaged cell phone close to Holly’s college and upon the ground surface where it will absolutely and most certainly be found. I hope that readers now understand why I am uneasy about the claims that Holly’s cell phone was recovered at all, let alone near her College. If Holly’s cell phone was NOT recovered near her College, this could be an outside job by crazed amateurs and one insider. If Holly’s cell phone WAS actually recovered near her college, there is something rotten about the whole story, something more sinister. Potentially, very sinister.
    "If the cell-phone evidence exists as un-officially reported, there could be a real problem with everything we think that we know."

    Wait, what?

    1 I think I follow your basic belief about the cell phone. That would be the idea that after she was abducted, the cell phone was taken from her by the perps at some point and planted in a chosen spot, to be found by searchers and thereby draw suspicion away from her real location.

    Unless I'm missing something, that underlying conclusion (that the phone was planted by the perps) has always seemed fairly obvious to me ...and I doubt it's escaped the thinking of others here, either.

    2 So I really don't follow your idea that there's something significant - even game-changing - to be derived from where they did find the phone, whether it be college area (as one report seemed to imply) or gravel pit area (as most of them indicated). You focus on the college area, and while I think that's likely not even a properly reported location (instead, thinking everyone else got it right but the one odd duck), I fail to see how it matters. How would finding the phone in the very general vicinity of a local learning center make any real diff if it was the place the perps chose? Either way, we are only seeing a place chosen that WASN'T where she was, and that the perps thought might lead the investigation astray. Obviously college fits, gravel pit fits, in fact any place hinting she was taken "south" rather than north would seem to have met their obvious agenda.

    If we somehow nail down that the perps hid her phone in the area of the learning center, how does that lead to some sort of epiphany, or game-changer, rather than simply to the obvious? I don't get it.
    REMINDER: All my comments are IMO AFAIK
    All posts are offered imo and to the best of my knowledge.

  4. #49
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    Herbison tells us he will remain as Jason Autry's attorney unless Autry decides to release him ‪#‎HollyBobo‬ https://t.co/JDdbc8L9bM

    Chris Conte (@chrisconte) posted a photo on Twitter

    "This was not the first time Herbison has been suspended for practicing law. He was suspended back in 2014 and had to sit out for part of the Vanderbilt Rape case."

    "As of Tuesday afternoon, Herbison was still representing Autry."


    NASHVILLE, TN (WSMV) -
    "The lawyer representing Jason Autry in the kidnapping and murder of Holly Bobo has been suspended for two years.

    John Herbison is accused of taking a non-refundable fee and never completing his work.

    He will be under an active suspension for 60 days until the $7,500 is paid to his former clients.

    As a condition of his probation, Herbison will also be monitored while practicing law."


    Read more: http://www.wsmv.com/story/31134053/l...#ixzz3z9aeyxsn


    http://www.wsmv.com/story/31134053/l...ed-for-2-years
    Last edited by jggordo; 02-03-2016 at 08:22 PM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by geevee View Post
    Is this the timeline (post #772) you're looking for, Mr. Noatak?

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...40#post7993640

    It's in the closed McStay Family discussion forum:

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/for...ussion-Threads
    Thanks.

    You found far more than I did. This version of my McStay Family timeline that you found for me is more-or-less representative. Somewhere and somehow I remember posting on Websleuths an even more-updated timeline that supersedes the one you kindly discovered. I did find a site on Websleuths where I can re-post my most complete McStay Family timeline (all-the-way through the discovery of the remains). Once that is accomplished, I will provide a link here to those of you who follow that interesting case.

    To the mods; sorry for being off-topic.

    Mr. Noatak

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveS View Post
    "If the cell-phone evidence exists as un-officially reported, there could be a real problem with everything we think that we know."

    Wait, what?

    1 I think I follow your basic belief about the cell phone. That would be the idea that after she was abducted, the cell phone was taken from her by the perps at some point and planted in a chosen spot, to be found by searchers and thereby draw suspicion away from her real location.

    Unless I'm missing something, that underlying conclusion (that the phone was planted by the perps) has always seemed fairly obvious to me ...and I doubt it's escaped the thinking of others here, either.

    2 So I really don't follow your idea that there's something significant - even game-changing - to be derived from where they did find the phone, whether it be college area (as one report seemed to imply) or gravel pit area (as most of them indicated). You focus on the college area, and while I think that's likely not even a properly reported location (instead, thinking everyone else got it right but the one odd duck), I fail to see how it matters. How would finding the phone in the very general vicinity of a local learning center make any real diff if it was the place the perps chose? Either way, we are only seeing a place chosen that WASN'T where she was, and that the perps thought might lead the investigation astray. Obviously college fits, gravel pit fits, in fact any place hinting she was taken "south" rather than north would seem to have met their obvious agenda.

    If we somehow nail down that the perps hid her phone in the area of the learning center, how does that lead to some sort of epiphany, or game-changer, rather than simply to the obvious? I don't get it.
    Let me think about what you have asked. These ARE important questions.

    Mr. Noatak

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Noatak View Post
    Thanks.

    You found far more than I did. This version of my McStay Family timeline that you found for me is more-or-less representative. Somewhere and somehow I remember posting on Websleuths an even more-updated timeline that supersedes the one you kindly discovered. I did find a site on Websleuths where I can re-post my most complete McStay Family timeline (all-the-way through the discovery of the remains). Once that is accomplished, I will provide a link here to those of you who follow that interesting case.

    To the mods; sorry for being off-topic.

    Mr. Noatak
    You're welcome, very much looking forward to your updated timeline.

  8. #53
    There's a new jailhouse informant, with another story.

    http://www.newschannel5.com/news/loc...bo-murder-case



    Photos from various cases (click on left-column names on the main photobucket page...they are in alphabetical order) http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/

    "LIKE" CCA: Crankycrankerson Case Archives on facebook, and please share the link: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CCA-C...479258?sk=wall

  9. #54
    The "Justice for Holly" section of the Case Archive is updated with this informant news and the Herbison news.

    Unfortunately (for now) a glitch leaves new additions on the last page, so you will find it there (p22 at present)

    http://s296.photobucket.com/user/cra...?sort=6&page=1

    Holly Bobo Case Archive (main section archives everything up until the arrests)
    http://s296.photobucket.com/user/cra...?sort=6&page=1
    Photos from various cases (click on left-column names on the main photobucket page...they are in alphabetical order) http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/

    "LIKE" CCA: Crankycrankerson Case Archives on facebook, and please share the link: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CCA-C...479258?sk=wall

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaReckonwith View Post
    There's a new jailhouse informant, with another story.

    http://www.newschannel5.com/news/loc...bo-murder-case



    Thanks for this new info.

    I can't put much faith into what this witness has claimed yet ......almost all of it except for the shooting-beating has been news items and could easily be fabricated.

    It is interesting because this is the second time and second source I have heard the claims of Holly being at ZA's house a couple days before her abduction......since I don't believe she was ever there my thoughts that the prosecution can prove she was in that house is getting stronger and these guys are going to try and explain that evidence as she was there on her own free will sometime before her abduction.

    What give me strong cause for concerns is ....why would they target a college student for a robbery?
    I know they were probably clouded by drugs and stupidity but I have a hard time believing this was the primary motive for why she was approached that day in her carport.

    If this witness didn't give them something that matches their evidence that hasn't been released ....he won't see the stand.

    Still interesting ......finger pointing,Holly being at ZA's house earlier has now been alleged coming from both JA and ZA


  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw385 View Post
    Thanks for this new info.

    I can't put much faith into what this witness has claimed yet ......almost all of it except for the shooting-beating has been news items and could easily be fabricated.

    It is interesting because this is the second time and second source I have heard the claims of Holly being at ZA's house a couple days before her abduction......since I don't believe she was ever there my thoughts that the prosecution can prove she was in that house is getting stronger and these guys are going to try and explain that evidence as she was there on her own free will sometime before her abduction.

    What give me strong cause for concerns is ....why would they target a college student for a robbery?
    I know they were probably clouded by drugs and stupidity but I have a hard time believing this was the primary motive for why she was approached that day in her carport.

    If this witness didn't give them something that matches their evidence that hasn't been released ....he won't see the stand.

    Still interesting ......finger pointing,Holly being at ZA's house earlier has now been alleged coming from both JA and ZA
    I believe you are correct. Some of what this informant says makes no sense to me. They were going to rob Holly? A young college girl who still lived at home with her parents? That sounds like totally off the wall BS.

    At least Adams has never said she was taken for some type of payback or revenge. I think he even knew that would be ridiculous to try and sell to anyone. And not one person who really knew Holly well has ever said she ever associated with these criminals. In fact they have said the total opposite which makes a lot more sense. I don't believe Holly was doing any kind of drugs and that would have to be the only reason she would go hangout with these brutes. JA never said one thing about Holly ever hanging out with them nor did Dylan.

    I hate to see the victim put on trial but I am sure its coming. What do they have to lose? Nothing, and its become very commonplace to blame the victim for their own death.

    I don't believe for one second Holly ever stepped foot on that property willingly. What ZA is trying to do is place Holly inside of his home because he knows the TBI have found evidence of her being there so he is trying to cover his a** by telling others she had been there before. Its about as ridiculous as if he was trying to proclaim that Holly had consensual sex with him (Lurch Jr) and the others.

    In fact I think the ADA will have witnesses lined up that will be able to tell the jury where Holly went and who she was with in the weeks leading up to the murder and it wont be anywhere near these three slugs. Zach sounds desperate and knows he has to put Holly in his home before he kidnapped her to explain away the evidence found. By now his attorneys have given him details on what the TBI have uncovered.

    I believe the evidence they retrieved from the home and property will show Holly was there when she was being held captive while being repeatedly raped, repeatedly beaten, and finally murdered. There will be no benign evidence of Holly ever setting foot in that house of horrors, willingly.

    I remember seeing photos of the TBI agents carrying out some of the flooring and it looked like planks of hardwood to me. Even if it looked clean to the naked eye it is never really cleaned of all the blood completely because the blood will seep down into the seams each plank has as its joined together. Plus any carpet can look clean to the naked eye but the blood will still be underneath the carpet/padding and even the sub-floor made of plywood below it. Also they could have taken the baseboard down in Adam's bedroom and Holly's blood may have been found there. I think they have a lot more evidence than we can even begin to imagine.

    Imo, Holly was beaten/raped for more than a day, maybe even for two or three days... before she was murdered, and there would be blood spatters from the horrific beatings she sustained plus blood if she was finally shot in the head. I don't believe these strung out meth addicts were capable of removing all the evidence. The TBI found something very important early on and that is why Adams was quickly arrested after the three day search of his home and property. SEARCH OF HOME AND PROPERTY= ARREST. That cant be overlooked.

    The TBI found what they needed immediately to have enough probable cause for an arrest and that was way back then. Every investigation like this remains fluid and continues long after the arrest/s have been made. I bet they are continuing to get forensic results back in even now. With over 600 people on the witness list it shows what the TBI has said is true and this is the most investigated case in Tennessee's history. It shows they have really worked hard to find the truth of what really happened and interviewed so many people concerning Holly's murder.

    In the Guy Heinz Jr.(GA) and the Gee family (IL) mass murder cases the police did the same thing. Once the search of the crime scene was done the detectives in each state selected two pieces of evidence to be fast tracked with a 2-3 day turnaround then the suspects were arrested as soon as the tests results came back. Both cases happened in 2009 and the trials held four years later in 2013. Evidence was still being processed years later after the arrests had been made. Those were death penalty cases too.

    IMO
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

  12. #57
    I didn't follow the Heinz case, but I made a Case Archive of the Gee case.

    I think this case will end similarly. No DP, but LWOP.

    Either way, these 3 will never breathe free again. IMO.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaReckonwith View Post
    I didn't follow the Heinz case, but I made a Case Archive of the Gee case.

    I think this case will end similarly. No DP, but LWOP.

    Either way, these 3 will never breathe free again. IMO.
    Thank you for all you do for us Amanda. I so much appreciate all of your hard work.

    I just saw the Gee Family Mass Murder case on the ID channel last week. Such a gruesome hideous murder of five innocent people.

    But I am not sure this one will end with LWOP for any of these defendants. If they are convicted then I do think they will receive the death penalty. Both the other cases you mention had a family member/s has the murderer. That is far different than this case where a young woman was kidnapped, raped, and murdered by someone she never associated with. Those kind of cases usually do end in the DP being handed down.

    I actually think they are going to have compelling evidence to prove these three cases.......much more than we can even imagine. If the ADA proves the cases BARD she can certainly provide evidence showing the sentences should be death and nothing less. I think that will be a pretty light burden she will have to prove to the jury if and when it gets to the sentencing phase. During that time all prior bad acts can be weighed by the jury as well. Everything comes in.

    In the Heinz case it was 11 to 1 for Guilt from the very beginning of deliberations and they thought he deserved the death penalty. But that was a strange case because when they removed the one juror from the jury who had refused to deliberate ...the DA then took the DP off the table so the 12 jurors no longer had that option. If the DA had not done that, they would have voted for death. So that is the only reason GHJ didn't receive the death penalty. He knew he was going to be convicted once the new juror came on board and he knew he would get the DP so he agreed to plea to LWOP to stop the deliberations and save himself from getting the death penalty.


    I would agree with you if they had never found any of Holly's remains but thank goodness some of her remains were found and we really don't know how much they found because the TBI is well known for keeping their evidence very secretive and away from the public.

    imo
    Last edited by oceanblueeyes; 02-09-2016 at 04:53 PM.
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
    In fact I think the ADA will have witnesses lined up that will be able to tell the jury where Holly went and who she was with in the weeks leading up to the murder and it wont be anywhere near these three slugs. Zach sounds desperate and knows he has to put Holly in his home before he kidnapped her to explain away the evidence found. By now his attorneys have given him details on what the TBI have uncovered.
    I agree 100%

    Holly's family,friends and boyfriend will have a strong memory of the final days they were with her......And will be able to blow apart their story of her being there if she never was.JA pretty much locked himself into the couple days before timeline if he put it in writing and sent to a reporter as has been claimed.If they had said months before it would be much harder to disprove she was there.

    They may have denied she was ever there when questioned earlier and have now changed their story knowing the evidence against them.Which would be very bad for the defense if this would happen to be the case.

    Either ZA lied to this informant about the real reason she was abducted or the informant just flat out made it up.......50/50 IMO

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw385 View Post
    Either ZA lied to this informant about the real reason she was abducted or the informant just flat out made it up.......50/50 IMO
    Whichever it may be, it doesn't look like the state is going to actually be able to use that witness at all, regardless of what the reporter has been led to believe. It's illegal to knowingly present false testimony as part of your case, so they can't present a witness whose testimony they believe will bring lies rather than facts. And it certainly hurts their case if they accept as truth and present that Holly was hanging around the defendants in the days or weeks before she was abducted.

    Instead, to me this feels like somewhat of a feint by the state, to be honest. Put out the word that you intend to call skippy to tell what ZA whispered, in the hopes that the defendants will believe you've fallen for the lie and will plan their defense thinking you will put that alibi-creating lie into evidence for them. Then, when you don't call the witness, it leaves a big hole in their defense.
    REMINDER: All my comments are IMO AFAIK
    All posts are offered imo and to the best of my knowledge.

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