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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveS View Post
    Whichever it may be, it doesn't look like the state is going to actually be able to use that witness at all, regardless of what the reporter has been led to believe. It's illegal to knowingly present false testimony as part of your case, so they can't present a witness whose testimony they believe will bring lies rather than facts. And it certainly hurts their case if they accept as truth and present that Holly was hanging around the defendants in the days or weeks before she was abducted.

    Instead, to me this feels like somewhat of a feint by the state, to be honest. Put out the word that you intend to call skippy to tell what ZA whispered, in the hopes that the defendants will believe you've fallen for the lie and will plan their defense thinking you will put that alibi-creating lie into evidence for them. Then, when you don't call the witness, it leaves a big hole in their defense.
    Steve, where does the informant's testimony lie with respect to hearsay? I know that Hearsay was discussed previously but it is truly confusing.
    If ZA told him then it's first person - "this is what he said". If ZA told him but his (friend, sister etc.) told it then it's hearsay? I know it's more complicated and it's obvious that it can't be corroborated in any way, so IMO worthless to either side except for reasonable doubt?
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveS View Post
    Whichever it may be, it doesn't look like the state is going to actually be able to use that witness at all, regardless of what the reporter has been led to believe. It's illegal to knowingly present false testimony as part of your case, so they can't present a witness whose testimony they believe will bring lies rather than facts. And it certainly hurts their case if they accept as truth and present that Holly was hanging around the defendants in the days or weeks before she was abducted.

    Instead, to me this feels like somewhat of a feint by the state, to be honest. Put out the word that you intend to call skippy to tell what ZA whispered, in the hopes that the defendants will believe you've fallen for the lie and will plan their defense thinking you will put that alibi-creating lie into evidence for them. Then, when you don't call the witness, it leaves a big hole in their defense.
    If you mean they add him to their witness list ......I agree they may
    If you mean they had him write a letter to this news outlet to leak the word back to ZA ....I strongly disagree

    I don't think the prosecution calls this guy .... but they could if they wanted to even if they are sure parts of his testimony will be false.

    For example .....if he claims she was shot in the head but since they have her skull and know she wasn't.They could still call him to testify about ZA admitting to the rape.They won't ask him about the murder and won't be introducing testimony that they know is false.The defense darn sure will to attack his credibility.Which is why the prosecution wouldn't want to use him to begin with.

    Their case would have to be pretty weak to resort to a witness they know is going to get ripped apart on cross.

    People get added to witness lists all the time that are never going to take the stand...........but I don't think the defense will fall for this since they will have access to this witness and know what he has or doesn't have to offer.And base their whole strategy around what this guy is claiming if parts can be proven false.

    Regardless I am sure they will be interested in questioning anyone who comes forward with information about the case....especially people in contact with the suspects.At this point that is all that is known LE has done.

    It is strange an informant in prison has written a letter to the media outing himself as a snitch........this whole thing could be nothing more then a ploy by the informant to get himself into protective custody.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steleheart View Post
    Steve, where does the informant's testimony lie with respect to hearsay? I know that Hearsay was discussed previously but it is truly confusing.
    If ZA told him then it's first person - "this is what he said". If ZA told him but his (friend, sister etc.) told it then it's hearsay? I know it's more complicated and it's obvious that it can't be corroborated in any way, so IMO worthless to either side except for reasonable doubt?
    In a situation like that the witness can report a conversation they had directly with the accused, and that would be admissible. If the conversation was about a third party however, then it would not be admissible. In other words, it could only be used against the person involved in the conversation, not against any co-accused.

    In court the issue would not be about the factual aspects of the conversation, but just that the conversation took place.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw385 View Post

    It is strange an informant in prison has written a letter to the media outing himself as a snitch........this whole thing could be nothing more then a ploy by the informant to get himself into protective custody.
    More likely a ploy to get LE to pay attention to him so he can negotiate a deal on his own sentence.

    People in prison seem to do this pretty frequently. There is no honor among thieves.

  5. #65
    SteveS is online now Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steleheart View Post
    Steve, where does the informant's testimony lie with respect to hearsay? I know that Hearsay was discussed previously but it is truly confusing.
    If ZA told him then it's first person - "this is what he said". If ZA told him but his (friend, sister etc.) told it then it's hearsay? I know it's more complicated and it's obvious that it can't be corroborated in any way, so IMO worthless to either side except for reasonable doubt?
    The hearsay restriction is a different obstacle altogether." What ZA says, thinks, remembers" - when related by someone else - is hearsay. But there are certain allowances for hearsay to be admitted. In "jailhouse snitch" testimony the restriction is legally surmounted by the fact that the words being related were supposedly spoken "against self interest" and therefore presumably wouldn't have been a lie, a joke, or somesuch (by ZA). But as an officer of the court, you can't use the exception to try to introduce testimony you believe to be a lie, and what this witness has to relate as supposedly "admissible hearsay" - including the lies - is already on the record in a deposition, no doubt, and should be known already by both sides.
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  6. #66
    SteveS is online now Attention: All my comments are IMO JMO MOO AFAIK etc
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    Chainsaw, I think we're basically saying the same thing.

    But here's what the reporter said. "He's definitely going to be called as a witness and he could be the star witness," said NewsChannel 5 Legal Analyst Nick Leonardo, adding: ""The defense will try to attack this guy's credibility, but the state will probably want to use him."

    Definitely being called? Star witness? Really? I'm calling pure BS on that "legal analysis," and for future reference, it looks to me like Leonardo is demonstrably full of hot air as a supposed "legal analyst." Clearly this "report" was more about ratings rather than actually offering any real legal insight into the case and its details, and any halfway decent 2nd year law student would have seen through this nonsense.
    REMINDER: All my comments are IMO AFAIK
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  7. #67
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    Question, has it ever been reported anywhere that holly was shot?
    Bullet hole in skull?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveS View Post
    Chainsaw, I think we're basically saying the same thing.

    But here's what the reporter said. "He's definitely going to be called as a witness and he could be the star witness," said NewsChannel 5 Legal Analyst Nick Leonardo, adding: ""The defense will try to attack this guy's credibility, but the state will probably want to use him."

    Definitely being called? Star witness? Really? I'm calling pure BS on that "legal analysis," and for future reference, it looks to me like Leonardo is demonstrably full of hot air as a supposed "legal analyst." Clearly this "report" was more about ratings rather than actually offering any real legal insight into the case and its details, and any halfway decent 2nd year law student would have seen through this nonsense.
    Yes we are basically saying the same thing.....that is a rare occurrence when it come to you and I

    And I also agree that the reporter added some hype to this new information....all I can see that LE has done is question the witness.Which is fully to be expected.

    After thinking about this some more......The informant has been convicted of a sex crime(s)?....they usually have a rough time serving their sentence.....so some serious thought about this being a ruse to get out of general population and into protective custody has to be given some consideration....especially given the fact he wrote a letter to the media letting it be known he was a snitch.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
    More likely a ploy to get LE to pay attention to him so he can negotiate a deal on his own sentence.

    People in prison seem to do this pretty frequently. There is no honor among thieves.
    This could also be what is going on.

    My thoughts are simply a guess.Based on what happens to informants in prison and the risk he would be taking by outing himself as a snitch.

    That letter being sent has all the earmarks of him being dismissed as not useful by LE and they are not going to call him as a witness......if they were going to use him he wouldn't be writing letters to the media or other wise whatever deal he might have brokered for his testimony might get revoked.

  10. #70
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    Out of all of this what sticks in my mind the most is when the Bobo family finally were convinced Holly had been murdered and was no longer alive. No matter the length of time that had passed they continuously refused to believe anything other than Holly was alive and being held captive somewhere. They held on to that belief never wavering for three years and never let go.

    BUT once the three day search of Adams' home and property had been done for the first time ever they admitted they knew Holly was dead.

    As a mother of five children I know a parent/s would have to be convinced of this... not beyond a reasonable doubt ..but beyond all doubt whatsoever. There would have to be conclusive proof and not just mere words. So with them finally coming to terms that Holly had indeed been murdered it convinces me that there was irrefutable proof of that when the TBI first did the search of home and property resulting in an arrest shortly afterwards. Its obvious the TBI found something so compelling it was enough to convince her family she was dead. It takes a lot to convince parents because they all hold on to hope until they know proof positive all hope is gone.

    About Holly's skull.

    Was it ever confirmed that Holly's skull didn't have a bullet hole in it? I would think when found by the ginseng hunter he wouldn't have disturbed anything. If her hair was still there it may have hidden any bullet wound. So since we haven't heard from the ME I don't think we really know all the particulars about the skull and other bones that may have been found. We don't even know if they may have gone back by now to do more searches and found more body parts scattered in the area.
    Last edited by oceanblueeyes; 02-16-2016 at 01:27 PM.
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  11. #71
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    I agree OBE. I felt exactly the same when the Bobo family finally conceded that she wasn't coming home but the "remains" had not been found. I think the answer is in the flooring.

    The ginseng hunter was taken aback by something after he saw the bones and he tipped the bucket - "something" frightened him. He stuck by that silence that LE told him was important. I think he knew somehow, by what he saw, that it was Holly.
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  12. #72
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    No, the reason would have been that LE had some guy who was claiming to know that she was dead, and that they believed the story he was telling them.

    The presumption that they must have found something that proved homicide completely ignores the fact that they had DA and SA telling them that she was dead.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
    No, the reason would have been that LE had some guy who was claiming to know that she was dead, and that they believed the story he was telling them.

    The presumption that they must have found something that proved homicide completely ignores the fact that they had DA and SA telling them that she was dead.
    No,IMO, its your reasoning which is flawed based on all other cases like this.

    I don't believe that for one second they just took the words of DA or SA. No parent is just going to take the word of anyone much less slugs with no credibility to begin with. They would have no way of knowing if SA and DA were lying trying to get a deal. Many informants will lie about someone when they are trying to get out of trouble themselves about something else and try to point fingers at someone else.

    Can you cite me a case where a SW resulted in an arrest and then nothing was found at all during the search?

    What SA and DA told them had nothing to do with the Bobos being convinced their daughter was dead. That came about immediately after the three day search of Adams property and home resulting in the arrest of Adams. That is when they finally were convinced she was dead. They certainly wouldn't take the mere words of meth heads who were known to lie.

    I have seen many parents post on crime message sites over the years who have tragically lost their children due to them being murdered and several of them were missing before being found. Sadly, some of them are posters right here on WS, and every one of them have consistently said they would NOT believe their child was dead until they were shown positive proof it was true. Any parent/s would also have the same sentiments, understandably so.

    Even after Torres was arrested for the kidnapping, and murder of Sierra Lamar (missing), Marlene, her mom, still held out hope she was alive... hoping LE was wrong about Torres killing her but that is what parents do and how they react in this situation. They hold onto hope until they are shown concrete irrefutable proof their child is dead. There is absolutely no way that the Bobo family would have taken just the words of anyone. Words are not proof of anything. Words mean nothing to a parent with a missing child. It has to be something they can see and know it exists.

    Imo, it is foolish to try and disbelieve the TBI didn't find anything of value when they did their extensive three day search of his home and property because from that search he was quickly arrested. I cant remember one case when a SW was done and resulted in the arrest of a suspect where LE found nothing. That defies commonsense and logic. The findings during search warrants are always a big part of any murder trial.

    No DA goes for the death penalty if all they have is the words of someone. In fact I cant remember even one case where the entire trial for the state was based solely on what a suspect may have said or didn't say or just on the words of any witness for that matter. DP cases by nature have much more evidence entered in them than typical other cases. Every one I have seen was chocked full of compelling evidence and those cases weren't investigated nearly as much as this one has been. From what the TBI Director has said it is the most investigated case in Tennessee history. They don't have blank sheets resulting in no evidence either for the ADA wouldn't have ever gone for the DP x3 on weak evidence. Even the state witness list of 600 is very out of the ordinary when most may have less than a 100.

    I truly don't understand why some seem hell bent on believing the TBI has nothing nor found anything in the search. There is absolutely nothing to support that claim either. The TBI is no different than any other law enforcement agency and they do not tell the public what their evidence entails nor does the ADA who is trying the case. It would be the first death penalty case I have ever seen where the only evidence the ADA has is words.........just words and nothing more. That is simply illogical thinking or maybe its wishful thinking.

    But of course you can believe as you wish to believe and I will continue to believe that something very compelling was found at the home or/and on the property of the man accused of kidnapping, raping, and murdering Holly. I don't think the Bobo parents are any different than I would be as a parent, and I absolutely would not take the words of anyone as proof my child had been murdered. I wouldn't even take the word of LE if all they had was words telling me to believe this or that. And I don't think I am alone as a parent with that same held opinion either.

    Every case I have ever kept up with where a search warrant was done which resulted in an arrest very shortly after... LE had found evidence at the scene that linked the victim to the suspect or found evidence that the crime had occurred at the property/home of the suspect. I don't think this case will be any different than all the others.

    One day we will know which piece of evidence was so compelling it convinced Holly's parents she had indeed been murdered when they refused to believe it for three long years.

    God bless them all as they prepare for justice to come for their beautiful daughter/sister.

    IMO
    Last edited by oceanblueeyes; 02-17-2016 at 09:24 PM.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steleheart View Post
    I agree OBE. I felt exactly the same when the Bobo family finally conceded that she wasn't coming home but the "remains" had not been found. I think the answer is in the flooring.

    The ginseng hunter was taken aback by something after he saw the bones and he tipped the bucket - "something" frightened him. He stuck by that silence that LE told him was important. I think he knew somehow, by what he saw, that it was Holly.
    Hi there my friend!

    Yes, I certainly believe it to be the case. We have seen what parents of many missing children have had to say over the years and what stays consistent is they demand to be shown irrefutable proof their child is dead before they will ever believe it to be true. Their feelings are so understandable.

    I think the ginseng hunter's testimony will be riveting. Yes, he saw something that day that changed his life forever and one day we will know what he saw that frightened him so much. It may have been her long blond hair and even though it may have slipped away from her skull the hair would probably would still be there.

    With finding just her skull underneath the bucket it makes me believe they dismembered her body, and decapitated her head.

    This is one of the most heart rending cases I have kept up with lately due to the sheer cruelty, heinousness, and evil involved by three monsters against one small defenseless young woman. I cannot begin to even comprehend how scared Holly must have been when she was enduring this nightmare. Its like these three came up out of the pits of hell and I hope they go right back down to hell where they all belong.
    "Pardon Our Noise, It's the Sound of Freedom" USMC New River Air Station, Jacksonville, North Carolina

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanblueeyes View Post
    No,IMO, its your reasoning which is flawed based on all other cases like this.

    I don't believe that for one second they just took the words of DA or SA. No parent is just going to take the word of anyone much less slugs with no credibility to begin with. They would have no way of knowing if SA and DA were lying trying to get a deal. Many informants will lie about someone when they are trying to get out of trouble themselves about something else and try to point fingers at someone else.

    Can you cite me a case where a SW resulted in an arrest and then nothing was found at all during the search?

    What SA and DA told them had nothing to do with the Bobos being convinced their daughter was dead. That came about immediately after the three day search of Adams property and home resulting in the arrest of Adams. That is when they finally were convinced she was dead. They certainly wouldn't take the mere words of meth heads who were known to lie.

    I have seen many parents post on crime message sites over the years who have tragically lost their children due to them being murdered and several of them were missing before being found. Sadly, some of them are posters right here on WS, and every one of them have consistently said they would NOT believe their child was dead until they were shown positive proof it was true. Any parent/s would also have the same sentiments, understandably so.

    Even after Torres was arrested for the kidnapping, and murder of Sierra Lamar (missing), Marlene, her mom, still held out hope she was alive... hoping LE was wrong about Torres killing her but that is what parents do and how they react in this situation. They hold onto hope until they are shown concrete irrefutable proof their child is dead. There is absolutely no way that the Bobo family would have taken just the words of anyone. Words are not proof of anything. Words mean nothing to a parent with a missing child. It has to be something they can see and know it exists.

    Imo, it is foolish to try and disbelieve the TBI didn't find anything of value when they did their extensive three day search of his home and property because from that search he was quickly arrested. I cant remember one case when a SW was done and resulted in the arrest of a suspect where LE found nothing. That defies commonsense and logic. The findings during search warrants are always a big part of any murder trial.

    No DA goes for the death penalty if all they have is the words of someone. In fact I cant remember even one case where the entire trial for the state was based solely on what a suspect may have said or didn't say or just on the words of any witness for that matter. DP cases by nature have much more evidence entered in them than typical other cases. Every one I have seen was chocked full of compelling evidence and those cases weren't investigated nearly as much as this one has been. From what the TBI Director has said it is the most investigated case in Tennessee history. They don't have blank sheets resulting in no evidence either for the ADA wouldn't have ever gone for the DP x3 on weak evidence. Even the state witness list of 600 is very out of the ordinary when most may have less than a 100.

    I truly don't understand why some seem hell bent on believing the TBI has nothing nor found anything in the search. There is absolutely nothing to support that claim either. The TBI is no different than any other law enforcement agency and they do not tell the public what their evidence entails nor does the ADA who is trying the case. It would be the first death penalty case I have ever seen where the only evidence the ADA has is words.........just words and nothing more. That is simply illogical thinking or maybe its wishful thinking.

    But of course you can believe as you wish to believe and I will continue to believe that something very compelling was found at the home or/and on the property of the man accused of kidnapping, raping, and murdering Holly. I don't think the Bobo parents are any different than I would be as a parent, and I absolutely would not take the words of anyone as proof my child had been murdered. I wouldn't even take the word of LE if all they had was words telling me to believe this or that. And I don't think I am alone as a parent with that same held opinion either.

    Every case I have ever kept up with where a search warrant was done which resulted in an arrest very shortly after... LE had found evidence at the scene that linked the victim to the suspect or found evidence that the crime had occurred at the property/home of the suspect. I don't think this case will be any different than all the others.

    One day we will know which piece of evidence was so compelling it convinced Holly's parents she had indeed been murdered when they refused to believe it for three long years.

    God bless them all as they prepare for justice to come for their beautiful daughter/sister.

    IMO
    What you are saying is not correct. Arrests, indictments and even convictions are routinely made on the basis of a witness account. In most wrongful convictions, where the person is subsequently cleared by DNA evidence for example, the conviction is typically obtained primarily on a witness account that is mistaken or fabricated. There usually is no other evidence.

    Most sexual assault cases are based entirely on witness accounts, and arrests/indictments/convictions happen routinely.

    For an example of where something like that happen in a murder case (it turned out that there was no murder), consider this example:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/16...ities-say.html

    In that case two girls drove off the road and into a creek in 1971, where their car remained undiscovered until 2013. The interesting sidebar to that particular case was that in 2004 one of the neighbors was indicted for their murder on the basis of a "jailhouse confession" (he was in prison for assaulting his wife), and pretty much nothing else. They even had search warrants on his family's land, and dug the place up. All they found were a few animal bones (not surprising, since the girls hadn't been murdered at all). In the end the prosecutors had to drop the charges because they believed their informant was not being truthful. That case got an indictment and was heading to trial purely on the basis of what this jailhouse informant claimed, so this sort of stuff DOES happen. For a decade that guy was the one who "got away with murder", until they actually found the girls and it turned out that they really had an accident instead. There was no murder at all.

    Why would the jailhouse informant have made this allegation in the first place? Most likely because cold case investigators were asking, and he saw it as an opportunity to get his own sentence treated more favorably. So he told them what they wanted to hear.

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