Fatal confrontation/between mentally ill man and police

katydid23 · Dec 30, 2015

Fatal confrontation between mentally ill man and three Palo Alto police officers took just 19 seconds

http://www.mercurynews.com/peninsul...o-police-release-more-details-christmas-night

ALO ALTO -- The fatal confrontation between 31-year-old William Raff and three police officers outside a downtown residential treatment center for the mentally ill on Christmas night spanned just 19 seconds from start to finish, police said in a statement Tuesday.
….snip….

The officers retreated into the street, called for emergency backup and tried to summon an additional "less-lethal tool" before opening fire on Raff, according to the statement.

"But the suspect ignored commands to drop the knife and suddenly charged them," police said in the statement. Perron added that Raff jumped around and screamed unintelligibly throughout the encounter.

katydid23 · Dec 30, 2015

from the link above:
Perron said he could not discuss individual training records, but noted that 90 percent of the city's officers, agents and sergeants have completed a weeklong, 40-hour crisis intervention training class. But, he added, it would not have made a difference in this particular case.

"There is a time and place where crisis-intervention training works," Perron said. "But when you have a suspect who is non-communicative, who is jumping around in the middle of the street, and who sprints while screaming and waving a knife, it's not going to make a difference."

The encounter was captured in its entirety from multiple angles on high-definition video and audio recording systems in several patrol cars, according to the statement. The footage was not released Tuesday.

"At this point," Perron said, "we're not giving it out to anyone except the District Attorney's Office."

That^^^ is exactly what I have tried to say before on other threads. I have been told exactly that by officers. The training is fine for when you are trying to communicate and negotiate something. But sometimes it goes sideways, off the rails, and it goes out the door.

katydid23 · Dec 30, 2015

Also, on earlier threads, people have accused the cops of only shooting black suspects. This was a white man. I guess it does not fir the narrative as it is getting no attention.

Montjoy · Dec 30, 2015

katydid23 said:
Also, on earlier threads, people have accused the cops of only shooting black suspects. This was a white man. I guess it does not fir the narrative as it is getting no attention.

I don't see many people disputing the fact that a LEO has the right to defend himself from an ARMED and AGGRESSIVE subject, especially after non-lethal attempts have been pursued.

And for what it's worth, I think it's a real shame that you needed to bring race into the discussion of this incident.

Cubby · Dec 31, 2015

Maybe its getting no attention because other threads have been closed and people might be questioning if this one was opened simply to continue dialogue which was shut down elsewhere.

katydid23 · Dec 31, 2015

Cubby said:
Maybe its getting no attention because other threads have been closed and people might be questioning if this one was opened simply to continue dialogue which was shut down elsewhere.

There was another thread that was opened at the same time about a shooting in Dearborn. Are we not allowed to open new threads about police shootings?

katydid23 · Dec 31, 2015

Montjoy said:
I don't see many people disputing the fact that a LEO has the right to defend himself from an ARMED and AGGRESSIVE subject, especially after non-lethal attempts have been pursued.

And for what it's worth, I think it's a real shame that you needed to bring race into the discussion of this incident.

That was brought up by another poster in two recent threads. She said police do not shoot if the person is white. I was bringing it up in reply to the links she gave making that claim.

LolaMoon08 · Dec 31, 2015

There is no reason why 3 police officers could not detain this man. They didn't have to kill him.

With that said, I refuse to participate in bait threads which is exactly what this has turned in to. Have fun.

RIP to the victim.

katydid23 · Dec 31, 2015

LolaMoon08 said:
There is no reason why 3 police officers could not detain this man. They didn't have to kill him.

With that said, I refuse to participate in bait threads which is exactly what this has turned in to. Have fun.

RIP to the victim.

Okay. So there were three officers, standing back away, waiting for back up, to bring some non-lethal devices. And they are trying deescalation tactics by stepping away.

Then the victim comes charging at them, with knife in hand, screaming and threatening, only a few feet away at the end.

What is your suggestion for how they were supposed to detain him? Was one of them supposed to get into hand to hand combat with a crazed man charging at them with a knife?

Ibiz · Dec 31, 2015

katydid23 said:
Okay. So there were three officers, standing back away, waiting for back up, to bring some non-lethal devices. And they are trying deescalation tactics by stepping away.

Then the victim comes charging at them, with knife in hand, screaming and threatening, only a few feet away at the end.

What is your suggestion for how they were supposed to detain him? Was one of them supposed to get into hand to hand combat with a crazed man charging at them with a knife?

I don't know. They could start classes where criminals learn tips and tricks on how to deal with the police.

Maybe a six week course that involves the teaching of stuff like:

Stop or Freeze

Drop the weapon

Put your hands behind your back, or get on your knees

These courses could be paid for by tax payers. If someone decides to start a criminal career, they can take the course for free. Also it could be a probation requirement too.

Sonya610 · Dec 31, 2015

Montjoy said:
And for what it's worth, I think it's a real shame that you needed to bring race into the discussion of this incident.

Seriously? I guess descriptions are only allowed when it suits a specific agenda. Hardly a surprise.

LolaMoon08 · Dec 31, 2015

Sonya610 said:
Seriously? I guess descriptions are only allowed when it suits a specific agenda. Hardly a surprise.

No one has anything against the description of the man killed here. They have a problem with that description being used to bait people from a previous thread and discussion. One that has obviously been shut down.

This thread may have gotten more attention if it was created to actually discuss this mans death, but I think it's pretty clear that it wasn't.

It's actually quite sad.

EllieBee · Dec 31, 2015

Cubby said:
Maybe its getting no attention because other threads have been closed and people might be questioning if this one was opened simply to continue dialogue which was shut down elsewhere.

I think you are onto something, there.

LolaMoon08 · Dec 31, 2015

katydid23 said:
Okay. So there were three officers, standing back away, waiting for back up, to bring some non-lethal devices. And they are trying deescalation tactics by stepping away.

Then the victim comes charging at them, with knife in hand, screaming and threatening, only a few feet away at the end.

What is your suggestion for how they were supposed to detain him? Was one of them supposed to get into hand to hand combat with a crazed man charging at them with a knife?

If every day citizens can band together to disarm individuals, then why can't LE? Isn't that what they are trained to do? You're telling me that not even one of those officers were trained to... I don't know... Shoot him in the hand holding the weapon? Or maybe the leg to stop him from charging? And don't you question WHY these officers didn't have the proper non-lethal weapons in the first place?

I know bouncers who are trained better than LE. Never once having to shoot any one, even though on multiple occasions they had every right to.

Again, my stance is that we really need to reevaluate the way LE is trained. Someone is doing a horrible job. I bet half of these officers shouldn't even be in uniform in the first place.

bessie · Dec 31, 2015

This thread is closed. I'm going to leave it in the forum as an example of a thread which started with a valid premise, and quickly went south. Pay attention to the posts intended to incite conflict. More often than not, it is these "spoon posts" which stir up *stuff*, that cause threads to be shut down.

Fatal confrontation/between mentally ill man and police

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