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  1. #1
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    John Ramsey – Another year of “moving on.”



    In the recent interview with Barbara Walters, John, once again, makes mention of “moving on.”
    Hardly new, John was ready to move on within minutes of “finding” the body of JonBenet with a phone call to his pilot to trying to arrange a flight to Atlanta.
    Within a few days, in the infamous interview with Cabell on CNN, he claimed he wasn’t angry with the “intruder” who took the life of his daughter and was ready to “go on.”

    Patsy Ramsey: And if anyone knows anything, please, please help us. For the safety of all of the children, we have to find out who did this.
    John Ramsey: Not because we're angry, but because we have got to go on.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...07/acd.02.html

    Doesn’t sound as if John is angry or seeking revenge, but I guess when the time comes to sell a book a little “embellishing” is alright?

    At first my prayers were based on intense anger and a desire for revenge. The Bible tells us not to repay evil with evil. That was exactly what I had in mind. I knew if I found this faceless creature, I was very capable of tearing him from limb to limb and I would have no remorse. For a long time, I told friends, you put me in a room with this monster and in sixty minutes there would be no need for a trial. I needed that much time to make sure he suffered before he died.
    The Other Side of Suffering, John Ramsey, page 172

    Anderson Cooper: I’ve talked to a lot of parents who have lost their child to violent circumstances and for many it becomes the focus of their lives to find out who killed their child. For you, is getting that answer essential?
    John Ramsey: It certainly was the focus for a long time, and frankly I wanted revenge – that was the emotion that I can be honest about.
    But part of moving on, and you’ve got to move on, you can’t dwell in that spot is to accept the fact that it may not happen.
    Anderson Cooper interview with John Ramsey, March 16, 2012

    Back to reality:
    Diane Hallis, who worked at Access Graphics, recalls that John Ramsey would look out the third floor windows of the offices trying to spot reporters. "He hated them," she says. "His anger was directed toward the media, but never toward the killer. He never mentioned the killer."
    February 29, 1999
    http://thehistoryvault.tripod.com/02...gfrenzy-bw.htm

    In an interview to be broadcast tonight, Ramsey voices empathy for the man arrested but later released after he confessed to slaying 6-year-old pageant queen JonBenet Ramsey in her Boulder home.
    "After a while, he was so abused and vilified and convicted in the media that I started to feel sorry for the guy," Ramsey told "48 Hours Mystery" correspondent Erin Moriarty in his first interview since his wife Patsy's death and Karr's arrest.
    "You have this expectation that absolute evil is going to be ugly and dark and reprehensible. Here, you know, is a nice, clean-cut-looking young man."
    November 25, 2006
    http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_13068611

    This excerpt from when Oprah “cleared” the Ramseys:
    After JonBenet's murder, John says they did allow themselves to grieve, but they soon realized it was important to move on for the sake of their son, Burke, who was 9 years old at the time. "You have to move on.”
    September 10, 2008
    http://www.westword.com/news/now-we-...ays-so-5856432

    While on the theme of moving on, I thought I’d look to see who else found it easy to get on with life after a homicide.

    • Drew Peterson:
    Geoff's Blog: My Interview with Drew Peterson
    3/15/2009
    Last night (Sunday) I had Drew Peterson on my show. For those of you who don't know who Peterson is, let me explain. The guy has been married four times. His third wife was found dead in a bathtub with no water in it. His fourth wife, Stacy, disappeared. It has been all over the news for a year and a half now.
    [SNIP]
    This is one sick SOB. His wife has been missing for over a year and he has to move on with his life, according to him. No mourning, just that's it, according to him. He has no remorse and claims he didn't do anything wrong. He is as guilty as sin, but one cold customer.
    I questioned him last night, even told him I thought he killed his wife, and he stared right through me.
    [SNIP]
    His current fiancé is 23 and has two kids. Nice. He is engaged but can't get married because his wife has disappeared and a divorce is not easy to get, according to his attorney. Why get engaged? He has to move on with his life, so he says. He drives around, smiles, and hasn't a care in the world.
    His behavior as a role model to his kids is beyond belief. Ask him about it, and he says that "Life moves on."
    http://www.geoffpinkus.com/show_blog.asp?id=110

    • Michael White:
    Michael White is a polarizing figure. You can accept his version of events and believe that the evidence pointing at his guilt is all the result of bad luck on his part. Or you can conclude, as the jury did, that White is a liar. If White is that, he is also an unrepentant liar, one evidently motivated by an unabashed sense of self-pity, the notion that he himself is the real victim, so that justifies his actions, no matter how deceitful.
    Even on the day he murdered Liana, he managed to play the victim. White heaped shame on the police after they asked him if he might be responsible for Liana's disappearance: "When somebody says, 'Hey are you responsible for your wife (being) missing?' you know, that's like an absolute kick in the chest, you know. Like, I'm already hurting as it is, let's just put another coal in that fire."
    In that same interview, White also attacked Maureen, who had suggested that maybe somebody had been waiting in the garage for Liana that morning and had grabbed her. White felt like Maureen was blaming him, since he was the last one in the garage and should have locked it.
    "Well, thanks for putting that in my head, you know," he groused to the police. "It is my fault now. I left the garage door open?"
    [SNIP]
    The public got a troubling taste of White in full victim mode when he stood in front of his house shortly after Liana went missing and proclaimed: "Liana -- hold tight.... If whoever has her, or if she is out there and you see me, just stay there and we will find you. I will find you."
    Until that moment, Liana's friend, Nathalie Durie, had told everyone, including the police, that easygoing, gentle Michael had to be innocent. But this proclamation came across as so bizarre, it made Durie's jaw drop.
    Why ask Liana to stay put, she wondered? What the heck did that mean? "I got goose bumps down to the tips of my toes. To me, he was like a whole different person."
    White's sense of grievance only grew in the weeks after his arrest. In a jailhouse interview with CHED radio reporter Byron Christopher, White talked about launching his own investigation to find Liana's real killer. "I'd have to say certain elements in the homicide division do have tunnel vision," White complained. "It is unacceptable
    ."
    http://www.nationalpost.com/story.ht...71ac38333f&p=4
    A few hours before finding his wife’s body, White complained to the local newspaper, the Edmonton Sun, about being compared to Scott Peterson. In fact, he was very much like Peterson. In that interview, he was already speaking of his wife as dead, and described plans for her funeral. He seemed eager to move on, saying he had to “get back to normalcy” for their daughter’s sake.
    “Liana would want me to,” he said.
    Erased: Missing Women, Murdered Wives, By Marilee Strong, Mark Powelson, page 162

    • OJ Simpson:
    NOT GUILTY: THE MAN;Simpson Walks Out of the Courtroom a Free Man and Into the Lucrative Free Market, By JAMES STERNGOLD
    LOS ANGELES, Oct. 3, 1995 — O. J. Simpson walked out of the courtroom today a free man for the first time in 15 months
    , saying he was eager to rebuild his life and move on.
    http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/04/us...ee-market.html

    While on the topic of OJ Simpson, who famously said that he was going to make it his mission to “find the killers,” let’s not forget that it’s also John Ramsey’s mission.
    Reporter: What do you want to say to the killer of your daughter?
    John Ramsey: We'll find you. We will find you. I have that as a sole mission for the rest of my life.
    Reporter: Mrs. Ramsey?
    Patsy Ramsey: Likewise.
    May 1, 1997
    http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/0501199...ainterview.htm
    OJ Simpson:
    But when things have settled a bit, I will pursue as my primary goal in life the killer or killers who slaughtered Nicole and Mr. Goldman. They are out there somewhere. Whatever it takes to identify them and bring them in, I will provide somehow."
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/21978...ives-acquittal

    Last edited by cynic; 01-01-2016 at 01:04 AM.
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post


    In the recent interview with Barbara Walters, John, once again, makes mention of “moving on.”
    Hardly new, John was ready to move on within minutes of “finding” the body of JonBenet with a phone call to his pilot to trying to arrange a flight to Atlanta.
    Within a few days, in the infamous interview with Cabell on CNN, he claimed he wasn’t angry with the “intruder” who took the life of his daughter and was ready to “go on.”

    Patsy Ramsey: And if anyone knows anything, please, please help us. For the safety of all of the children, we have to find out who did this.
    John Ramsey: Not because we're angry, but because we have got to go on.
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...07/acd.02.html

    Doesn’t sound as if John is angry or seeking revenge, but I guess when the time comes to sell a book a little “embellishing” is alright?

    At first my prayers were based on intense anger and a desire for revenge. The Bible tells us not to repay evil with evil. That was exactly what I had in mind. I knew if I found this faceless creature, I was very capable of tearing him from limb to limb and I would have no remorse. For a long time, I told friends, you put me in a room with this monster and in sixty minutes there would be no need for a trial. I needed that much time to make sure he suffered before he died.
    The Other Side of Suffering, John Ramsey, page 172

    Anderson Cooper: I’ve talked to a lot of parents who have lost their child to violent circumstances and for many it becomes the focus of their lives to find out who killed their child. For you, is getting that answer essential?
    John Ramsey: It certainly was the focus for a long time, and frankly I wanted revenge – that was the emotion that I can be honest about.
    But part of moving on, and you’ve got to move on, you can’t dwell in that spot is to accept the fact that it may not happen.
    Anderson Cooper interview with John Ramsey, March 16, 2012

    Back to reality:
    Diane Hallis, who worked at Access Graphics, recalls that John Ramsey would look out the third floor windows of the offices trying to spot reporters. "He hated them," she says. "His anger was directed toward the media, but never toward the killer. He never mentioned the killer."
    February 29, 1999
    http://thehistoryvault.tripod.com/02...gfrenzy-bw.htm

    In an interview to be broadcast tonight, Ramsey voices empathy for the man arrested but later released after he confessed to slaying 6-year-old pageant queen JonBenet Ramsey in her Boulder home.
    "After a while, he was so abused and vilified and convicted in the media that I started to feel sorry for the guy," Ramsey told "48 Hours Mystery" correspondent Erin Moriarty in his first interview since his wife Patsy's death and Karr's arrest.
    "You have this expectation that absolute evil is going to be ugly and dark and reprehensible. Here, you know, is a nice, clean-cut-looking young man."
    November 25, 2006
    http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_13068611

    This excerpt from when Oprah “cleared” the Ramseys:
    After JonBenet's murder, John says they did allow themselves to grieve, but they soon realized it was important to move on for the sake of their son, Burke, who was 9 years old at the time. "You have to move on.”
    September 10, 2008
    http://www.westword.com/news/now-we-...ays-so-5856432

    While on the theme of moving on, I thought I’d look to see who else found it easy to get on with life after a homicide.

    • Drew Peterson:
    Geoff's Blog: My Interview with Drew Peterson
    3/15/2009
    Last night (Sunday) I had Drew Peterson on my show. For those of you who don't know who Peterson is, let me explain. The guy has been married four times. His third wife was found dead in a bathtub with no water in it. His fourth wife, Stacy, disappeared. It has been all over the news for a year and a half now.
    [SNIP]
    This is one sick SOB. His wife has been missing for over a year and he has to move on with his life, according to him. No mourning, just that's it, according to him. He has no remorse and claims he didn't do anything wrong. He is as guilty as sin, but one cold customer.
    I questioned him last night, even told him I thought he killed his wife, and he stared right through me.
    [SNIP]
    His current fiancé is 23 and has two kids. Nice. He is engaged but can't get married because his wife has disappeared and a divorce is not easy to get, according to his attorney. Why get engaged? He has to move on with his life, so he says. He drives around, smiles, and hasn't a care in the world.
    His behavior as a role model to his kids is beyond belief. Ask him about it, and he says that "Life moves on."
    http://www.geoffpinkus.com/show_blog.asp?id=110

    • Michael White:
    Michael White is a polarizing figure. You can accept his version of events and believe that the evidence pointing at his guilt is all the result of bad luck on his part. Or you can conclude, as the jury did, that White is a liar. If White is that, he is also an unrepentant liar, one evidently motivated by an unabashed sense of self-pity, the notion that he himself is the real victim, so that justifies his actions, no matter how deceitful.
    Even on the day he murdered Liana, he managed to play the victim. White heaped shame on the police after they asked him if he might be responsible for Liana's disappearance: "When somebody says, 'Hey are you responsible for your wife (being) missing?' you know, that's like an absolute kick in the chest, you know. Like, I'm already hurting as it is, let's just put another coal in that fire."
    In that same interview, White also attacked Maureen, who had suggested that maybe somebody had been waiting in the garage for Liana that morning and had grabbed her. White felt like Maureen was blaming him, since he was the last one in the garage and should have locked it.
    "Well, thanks for putting that in my head, you know," he groused to the police. "It is my fault now. I left the garage door open?"
    [SNIP]
    The public got a troubling taste of White in full victim mode when he stood in front of his house shortly after Liana went missing and proclaimed: "Liana -- hold tight.... If whoever has her, or if she is out there and you see me, just stay there and we will find you. I will find you."
    Until that moment, Liana's friend, Nathalie Durie, had told everyone, including the police, that easygoing, gentle Michael had to be innocent. But this proclamation came across as so bizarre, it made Durie's jaw drop.
    Why ask Liana to stay put, she wondered? What the heck did that mean? "I got goose bumps down to the tips of my toes. To me, he was like a whole different person."
    White's sense of grievance only grew in the weeks after his arrest. In a jailhouse interview with CHED radio reporter Byron Christopher, White talked about launching his own investigation to find Liana's real killer. "I'd have to say certain elements in the homicide division do have tunnel vision," White complained. "It is unacceptable
    ."
    http://www.nationalpost.com/story.ht...71ac38333f&p=4
    A few hours before finding his wife’s body, White complained to the local newspaper, the Edmonton Sun, about being compared to Scott Peterson. In fact, he was very much like Peterson. In that interview, he was already speaking of his wife as dead, and described plans for her funeral. He seemed eager to move on, saying he had to “get back to normalcy” for their daughter’s sake.
    “Liana would want me to,” he said.
    Erased: Missing Women, Murdered Wives, By Marilee Strong, Mark Powelson, page 162

    • OJ Simpson:
    NOT GUILTY: THE MAN;Simpson Walks Out of the Courtroom a Free Man and Into the Lucrative Free Market, By JAMES STERNGOLD
    LOS ANGELES, Oct. 3, 1995 — O. J. Simpson walked out of the courtroom today a free man for the first time in 15 months
    , saying he was eager to rebuild his life and move on.
    http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/04/us...ee-market.html

    While on the topic of OJ Simpson, who famously said that he was going to make it his mission to “find the killers,” let’s not forget that it’s also John Ramsey’s mission.
    Reporter: What do you want to say to the killer of your daughter?
    John Ramsey: We'll find you. We will find you. I have that as a sole mission for the rest of my life.
    Reporter: Mrs. Ramsey?
    Patsy Ramsey: Likewise.
    May 1, 1997
    http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/0501199...ainterview.htm
    OJ Simpson:
    But when things have settled a bit, I will pursue as my primary goal in life the killer or killers who slaughtered Nicole and Mr. Goldman. They are out there somewhere. Whatever it takes to identify them and bring them in, I will provide somehow."
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/21978...ives-acquittal

    ‘Moving on’ seems to be a common refrain from many others involved in a crime.

    However, imo, JR’s comment in 1997, 19 years ago today, tops them all for rarity. I’ve never heard of a parent referencing the need to “go on”, less than a week after a child’s murder. And this was said only one day after burying his daughter.

    (But then I’m only acquainted with the likes of parents like Marc Klaas, Mark Lunsford, John and Dorthy Moxley, and June Menger and how their behavior and comments contrast to JR’s.)
    My posts are my opinion, protected under the Freedom of Speech Amendment

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post


    In an interview to be broadcast tonight, Ramsey voices empathy for the man arrested but later released after he confessed to slaying 6-year-old pageant queen JonBenet Ramsey in her Boulder home.
    "After a while, he was so abused and vilified and convicted in the media that I started to feel sorry for the guy," Ramsey told "48 Hours Mystery" correspondent Erin Moriarty in his first interview since his wife Patsy's death and Karr's arrest.
    "You have this expectation that absolute evil is going to be ugly and dark and reprehensible. Here, you know, is a nice, clean-cut-looking young man."
    November 25, 2006
    http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_13068611


    I had to re-read this 3 times to make sure I had it right. What a crazy opinion to have on the creep that claims he was with JB when she died.

    And in regards to moving on, add to the list Burke's comment about moving on with life.

  4. #4
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    Madeleine74 is offline Of course it's my opinion; who else's would it be?
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    In my most generous outlook of this case, and if I subscribe to my theory that this was a moment of rage that then was turned into a horrible cover-up, there is nothing left but moving forward.

    If it was Patsy who was the initiator of this rage, well she's dead and that's the end of her. If it was Burke who was the initiator of the rage on JB, he was a nine-year-old child at the time and wouldn't have been subject to prosecution.

    I suppose one might say the real crime committed was the staging, cover-up and throwing of everyone else under the bus to take focus away from the family. That was terrible and unconscionable, but it's important to consider that the death of JB may have started from an unintentional burst of anger, ie not a premeditated intent to harm. That doesn't make it OK, and it will never make it OK, but it also doesn't make it murder as we legally define murder.

    Again, I'm being generous in my consideration here. I'm not saying what John Ramsey is doing and saying is good, only that I'm trying to look at a bigger picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeleine74 View Post
    In my most generous outlook of this case, and if I subscribe to my theory that this was a moment of rage that then was turned into a horrible cover-up, there is nothing left but moving forward.

    If it was Patsy who was the initiator of this rage, well she's dead and that's the end of her. If it was Burke who was the initiator of the rage on JB, he was a nine-year-old child at the time and wouldn't have been subject to prosecution.

    I suppose one might say the real crime committed was the staging, cover-up and throwing of everyone else under the bus to take focus away from the family. That was terrible and unconscionable, but it's important to consider that the death of JB may have started from an unintentional burst of anger, ie not a premeditated intent to harm. That doesn't make it OK, and it will never make it OK, but it also doesn't make it murder as we legally define murder.

    Again, I'm being generous in my consideration here. I'm not saying what John Ramsey is doing and saying is good, only that I'm trying to look at a bigger picture.
    Hi Madeleine74, your thoughts above most appreciated. I do agree that your opinons are very generous, espcecially toward R involvement - certainly IMO the utmost generous one can be especially what we know now almost 20 years after the murder... and what factual details and evidence point to here in 2016. There may be much more circumstantial evidence that we are not even aware of ------ YET.

    I feel very confident that if this exact same crime had been committed a few days ago on December 26 2015 - there would be a much more aggresive approach by LE, media coverage would have been probably 10x more damning to the parents, any shenanigans by Boulder prosecutors hired at the time would have been scURtinized [sic, my intentional misspel] , the BPD would have been wiser, and so would have the general public. This case should have been resolved very quickly. It still could be resolved very quickly. if certain facts could be revealed IMO
    Last edited by CorallaroC; 01-02-2016 at 12:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic


    In an interview to be broadcast tonight, Ramsey voices empathy for the man arrested but later released after he confessed to slaying 6-year-old pageant queen JonBenet Ramsey in her Boulder home.
    "After a while, he was so abused and vilified and convicted in the media that I started to feel sorry for the guy," Ramsey told "48 Hours Mystery" correspondent Erin Moriarty in his first interview since his wife Patsy's death and Karr's arrest.
    "You have this expectation that absolute evil is going to be ugly and dark and reprehensible. Here, you know, is a nice, clean-cut-looking young man."
    November 25, 2006
    http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_13068611


    Quote Originally Posted by InstantProof View Post
    I had to re-read this 3 times to make sure I had it right. What a crazy opinion to have on the creep that claims he was with JB when she died.

    And in regards to moving on, add to the list Burke's comment about moving on with life.

    InstantProof, I've been away from the board for a long time, since last May. So, hi.

    I agree; it is a crazy opinion, on the face of it. One way it does make sense is if JR is unconsciously speaking about himself. The fact that he himself looks nice and clean-cut and not manifestly evil helped him avoid prosecution for JonBenet's murder. He may be fascinated with that fact, some part of him knowing he has a dark side, another part saying that can't be true or it would be visible.

    It's curious that his interest in and sympathy for Karr include only three points: didn't Kill JB, clean-cut, trashed in the media. Never mind that Karr's clean-cut face would nevertheless make him a prime contender for the Creep of the Year Award, name your year - and that he's a sick fantasist, liar, pedophile, online stalker, psychotic would-be cult leader. That's rather a lot to leave out. It's as though JR is saying, 'I look nice, didn't kill JonBenet, and got convicted in the media. It doesn't matter that I contributed to her death, helped stage a kidnapping, protected her killer, bought my way out of a trial, may have been molesting her, have lied my head off for 19 years and thrown half the county under the bus. I feel sorry for Karr. I know what it's like when you're well groomed and didn't actually kill JonBenet but you get abused and convicted in the media anyway!'

    In other words, if he is identifying with Karr, but only with the details about JMK that serve him (JR) and not the rest, then he is also telling us he's either completely out of touch with his dark side or aware but unconcerned (doesn't grasp its moral significance). I would vote for the latter. JMO ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by cynic View Post
    John Ramsey: Not because we're angry, but because we have got to go on.
    Really? He's not angry? Like 20 years after this case, total strangers, many of whom aren't even from the same country or time period are pretty angry about what happened.

    Also can these two keep their lies in check? One second they're not angry, one second they're trying to hunt down the 'killer' mercilessly. It sounds like they're reacting to the media. "Oh no we sound like we don't care. Pretend we care. Ok now they think we care too much pretend like we don't care again." Weird behaviour from two people who actually seemed pretty decent at managing their public appearance.

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    Madeleine74 is offline Of course it's my opinion; who else's would it be?
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    Obviously what happened to JB happened by a family member. I'm not sure who, but in my mind it was either PR or BR for the initial head trauma. Never considered BR seriously before until I read Kolar's book. But if it started with BR, the weird behaviors of the parents make more sense.

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    From all the true crime I've watched or read, I think the feelings of forgiveness and moving on- if they come at all- generally come after the killer is behind bars, paying for their crime. There's a lot of stories about that. I can't think of any where it was forgiven and forgotten and then a suspect emerged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InstantProof View Post
    From all the true crime I've watched or read, I think the feelings of forgiveness and moving on- if they come at all- generally come after the killer is behind bars, paying for their crime. There's a lot of stories about that. I can't think of any where it was forgiven and forgotten and then a suspect emerged.
    Yeah how can you forgive someone you know nothing about? How do you know if they have feel remorse? I think the whole "forgiveness" thing, in the Ramseys' situation, is to appeal to Christians and to make the Ramseys look "above it all"---their daughter was murdered, they were accused, but they forgive the killer.


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    Quote Originally Posted by meara View Post
    quote originally posted by cynic


    in an interview to be broadcast tonight, ramsey voices empathy for the man arrested but later released after he confessed to slaying 6-year-old pageant queen jonbenet ramsey in her boulder home.
    "after a while, he was so abused and vilified and convicted in the media that i started to feel sorry for the guy," ramsey told "48 hours mystery" correspondent erin moriarty in his first interview since his wife patsy's death and karr's arrest.
    "you have this expectation that absolute evil is going to be ugly and dark and reprehensible. Here, you know, is a nice, clean-cut-looking young man."
    november 25, 2006
    http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_13068611





    instantproof, i've been away from the board for a long time, since last may. So, hi.

    I agree; it is a crazy opinion, on the face of it. One way it does make sense is if jr is unconsciously speaking about himself. The fact that he himself looks nice and clean-cut and not manifestly evil helped him avoid prosecution for jonbenet's murder. He may be fascinated with that fact, some part of him knowing he has a dark side, another part saying that can't be true or it would be visible.

    It's curious that his interest in and sympathy for karr include only three points: Didn't kill jb, clean-cut, trashed in the media. Never mind that karr's clean-cut face would nevertheless make him a prime contender for the creep of the year award, name your year - and that he's a sick fantasist, liar, pedophile, online stalker, psychotic would-be cult leader. That's rather a lot to leave out. It's as though jr is saying, 'i look nice, didn't kill jonbenet, and got convicted in the media. It doesn't matter that i contributed to her death, helped stage a kidnapping, protected her killer, bought my way out of a trial, may have been molesting her, have lied my head off for 19 years and thrown half the county under the bus. I feel sorry for karr. I know what it's like when you're well groomed and didn't actually kill jonbenet but you get abused and convicted in the media anyway!'

    in other words, if he is identifying with karr, but only with the details about jmk that serve him (jr) and not the rest, then he is also telling us he's either completely out of touch with his dark side or aware but unconcerned (doesn't grasp its moral significance). I would vote for the latter. Jmo ~
    Whew, somebody left the door open and a breath of fresh air arrived in this post! Thank you for describing those little bitty hints of character flaws, so disquieting no matter how many times we’ve heard them.

    JR obviously doesn’t look upon JMK as creep of the year; he looks at how this can be used to enhance his own virtuous persona in the media, as if to say, “Look, he was targeted by the authorities, just like me.” And it’s like watching someone perfecting their state of victimology. Still today, JR puts the BPD under the label of incompetence and emphasizes that they cruelly targeted him and his family. I’ve noted this quote elsewhere, but it bears repeating. This is cited by profiler John Douglas in one of his books. From JR: “And if there is any lesson in all of this, it isn’t that an innocent child was murdered— because, unfortunately, that happens all too often— but that the police persecuted innocent people.”

    Your post triggered some other thoughts, and I’m going to wander around a little here. The following musings are not my own. I have simply read a lot. So in the event some readers here haven’t combed through the past observations by real psychologists who have appeared on the JBR forums, I’ll summarize some stuff.

    A lot has been written about Cluster B Personality Disorder and the Rs (in JR’s case specifically narcissistic personality disorder, NPD. Google NPD for more detail.) I don’t pretend to any professional knowledge of this disorder, but I do know that some (not all) with Cluster B issues also are sociopaths. From what I’ve read about narcissism, JR ‘pings’ soundly on the spectrum, but also seems to have a comorbidity of sociopathy. (Sociopathy is chiefly characterized as something really wrong with one's conscience.) The tipping point for me was the easy and comfortable combination of charm, lies and accusations against innocent friends. He doesn’t 'feel' anything at all about the action of throwing someone under the bus if it furthers his goal.

    There are cases where sociopaths appear to have the capacity for feelings, to have a seemingly normal capacity for affection. But there is a difference - they also appear to have an ability most people don’t have, the capacity to 'compartmentalize' (i.e., wall-off) any emotional connection to their actions.

    For me, when JR attempts to show how he is above it all, he simply highlights who he really is. At his core, there’s a failure to recognize other people’s emotional responses to the horrendous death of his daughter and to believe that he is better than everyone else who would judge a killer. (Except, of course, when he occasionally switches course and says he would tear the killer apart. The changes in tone can make the head spin. Thank you, Ellie9.) JR wants to make sure everyone sees his sanctity and his recovery from being accused. He wants to be admired. Jmho, but it makes me want to barf.
    Last edited by questfortrue; 01-04-2016 at 02:30 PM. Reason: Punctuation
    My posts are my opinion, protected under the Freedom of Speech Amendment

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by questfortrue View Post
    Whew, somebody left the door open and a breath of fresh air arrived in this post! Thank you for describing those little bitty hints of character flaws, so disquieting no matter how many times we’ve heard them.

    JR obviously doesn’t look upon JMK as creep of the year; he looks at how this can be used to enhance his own virtuous persona in the media, as if to say, “Look, he was targeted by the authorities, just like me.” And it’s like watching someone perfecting their state of victimology. Still today, JR puts the BPD under the label of incompetence and emphasizes that they cruelly targeted him and his family. I’ve noted this quote elsewhere, but it bears repeating. This is cited by profiler John Douglas in one of his books. From JR: “And if there is any lesson in all of this, it isn’t that an innocent child was murdered— because, unfortunately, that happens all too often— but that the police persecuted innocent people.”

    Your post triggered some other thoughts, and I’m going to wander around a little here. The following musings are not my own. I have simply read a lot. So in the event some readers here haven’t combed through the past observations by real psychologists who have appeared on the JBR forums, I’ll summarize some stuff.

    A lot has been written about Cluster B Personality Disorder and the Rs (in JR’s case specifically narcissistic personality disorder, NPD. Google NPD for more detail.) I don’t pretend to any professional knowledge of this disorder, but I do know that some (not all) with Cluster B issues also are sociopaths. From what I’ve read about narcissism, JR ‘pings’ soundly on the spectrum, but also seems to have a comorbidity of sociopathy. (Sociopathy is chiefly characterized as something really wrong with one's conscience.) The tipping point for me was the easy and comfortable combination of charm, lies and accusations against innocent friends. He doesn’t 'feel' anything at all about the action of throwing someone under the bus if it furthers his goal.

    There are cases where sociopaths appear to have the capacity for feelings, to have a seemingly normal capacity for affection. But there is a difference - they also appear to have an ability most people don’t have, the capacity to 'compartmentalize' (i.e., wall-off) any emotional connection to their actions.

    For me, when JR attempts to show how he is above it all, he simply highlights who he really is. At his core, there’s a failure to recognize other people’s emotional responses to the horrendous death of his daughter and to believe that he is better than everyone else who would judge a killer. (Except, of course, when he occasionally switches course and says he would tear the killer apart. The changes in tone can make the head spin. Thank you, Ellie9.) JR wants to make sure everyone sees his sanctity and his recovery from being accused. He wants to be admired. Jmho, but it makes me want to barf.
    Some interesting comments below from the “Eyes for Lies” website. (The comments reference an interview with John Ramsey by Erin Moriarty of CBC’s, 48 Hours Mystery, where Karr is discussed.)
    It really disturbed me when John Ramsey said (about Karr) “He was so abused and vilified and convicted in the media that I started to feel sorry for the guy, which is a bizarre feeling,” Ramsey says. “Having been through what we went through, I was gonna be the last guy that leaped out there and said, ‘Aha! This is the guy!’”
    If you just potentially laid your eyes on someone who you believed might have killed your daughter — do you honestly think you’d feel sorry for the killer because the media harassed and accused him — after he made a public confession?
    I think not. I know not! A true victim would be mad, furious, hoping for justice — but would never feel sorry for the criminal –especially a criminal who could have killed his daughter and who confessed!!!
    This statement by John Ramsey is exceptionally scary!!! It’s inconsistent, out of place, and definitely, hands-down out of character for an innocent man. It is consistent with a man who knows who killed his daughter — and knows the killer isn’t running around out in the world somewhere. Then and only then would someone feel sympathy for Karr.
    48 Hours goes on…”This was the biggest effort to find a suspect since really your daughter was killed,” Moriarty remarked to John Ramsey.
    “Oh yeah,” he agrees. And he acknowledges that he had his hopes up. “I mean I was grateful that the effort was going on and I was hopeful that this, in fact would be the conclusion.”
    Notice Ramsey’s grin. The timing is just odd. The pain of seeing a killer, or a potentially killer, would be immense. Most people whose daughter was killed, even recollecting the Karr situation, even when Karr was released — would still feel immense pain. Why isn’t John Ramsey feeling that pain??

    The feeling that there’s something “hinky” pervades this case. In isolation, the “little things” don’t mean much, but collectively there’s simply too much to dismiss.
    It’s the impression that Michael Kane was left with as he looked back at the pieces of the puzzle.

    Excerpts from the Rocky Mountain News - Case haunts DA's aide who led grand jury, December 18, 2001 by Charlie Brennan
    Michael Kane says he still thinks about the JonBenet Ramsey murder every day.
    Kane, 49, joined former District Attorney Alex Hunter's team in June 1998
    Kane spent many hours questioning John and Patsy Ramsey about their daughter's murder. He said he believes they have yet to give him the straight story.
    "When I met with them, I never felt that they were genuine," Kane said. "I always felt like I was talking to a press secretary who was giving responses with a spin.
    "I always felt like their answers were very careful and, in some cases, scripted. And that caused me a lot of concern."
    “It saddens me that 20 years after my sister Nicole’s murder, we are still seeing the same crimes, just different names, over and over again.”
    - Denise Brown (sister of Nicole Brown Simpson)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellie9 View Post
    Really? He's not angry? Like 20 years after this case, total strangers, many of whom aren't even from the same country or time period are pretty angry about what happened.

    Also can these two keep their lies in check? One second they're not angry, one second they're trying to hunt down the 'killer' mercilessly. It sounds like they're reacting to the media. "Oh no we sound like we don't care. Pretend we care. Ok now they think we care too much pretend like we don't care again." Weird behaviour from two people who actually seemed pretty decent at managing their public appearance.
    Thanks, Ellie9. Good points!!

    Total strangers, many not from the U.S. or around at the time, are angry: Yes, John is off in Ramseyland again. Other people are angry? That doesn't affect him, if it even enters his awareness. He is his own context.

    Alternating + modulating the angry/caring personas: I haven't seen this description of the behavior before, and it's an important one. Yes, they both did, and JR still does, react to the media. I think it goes deeper than that, too. They're both disturbed personalities (I'll just stay in present tense here, for simplicity's sake) who react abnormally under stress. They guess at what normal is, taking their cues from those around them, a survival strategy they manage well enough in everyday life but which becomes very difficult in extreme or very complex circumstances. Most people experience feelings from the inside out. The Rams often appear to work outside-in, tracking external reference points in place of authentic emotional experience. More than being just a PR maneuver, reacting to the media is both a symptom of the inner poverty and a scramble for camouflage.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by questfortrue View Post
    From JR: “And if there is any lesson in all of this, it isn’t that an innocent child was murdered— because, unfortunately, that happens all too often— but that the police persecuted innocent people.”
    This is so absolutely appalling. I mean, I know we all recognize and feel that. It's just literally unbelievable to me. The semantics are interesting - to actually deemphasize and demote his daughter's murder to a "second place" of suffering. The murder is "unfortunate." A spot of bad luck. Could and does happen. But the persecution - THAT is the Real Crime. It's absolutely stunning to me.

    I read "The Sociopath Next Door" a year or two ago - forgive me for foggy recollections of it - but I remember one of the key insights to me was that when a sociopath is "caught" or confronted with the facts of their bad behavior, the reaction is generally to campaign for sympathy. Which does the job of appealing to their narcissism as well as appealing to the better parts of the listener's nature. I think the reason John sounds so out of touch and off-tone - if we assume he has sociopathic traits - is that he literally is unable to conceive of the feelings he should be having. If you don't have the capacity for empathy, then you also can't do a very convincing job of play-acting it.

    I've been thinking a lot lately of the possibility that John only became aware of the events around the time of the 911 call, as some posters posit here. I just can't get on board with that idea. I do believe that John is a person who would have been able to compartmentalize and manage the crisis on the fly. BUT. Even if this was a cover for Burke - and John had no part in the events leading to her death - SOME degree of real grief should have seeped through somewhere along the way. And yet, nothing.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by questfortrue View Post
    From JR: “And if there is any lesson in all of this, it isn’t that an innocent child was murdered— because, unfortunately, that happens all too often— but that the police persecuted innocent people.”
    Children get murdered a lot, y'all, don't worry about that. What you SHOULD be concerning yourself with is all them innocent people being persecuted.


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