1081 users online (229 members and 852 guests)  


Websleuths News


Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 78
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,438

    Sightings of Ms. Halbach's SUV (the bus driver, et al)

    Quote Originally Posted by stephsb View Post
    I don't think this is by any means one of the most absurd theories out there, but I do think that involves too many people/potentially mixed motives. Certainly not impossible, and not "crazy", but not one of the most probable theories in my book.

    I don't believe CA, EA, and RF are all involved. I also don't believe this theory explains SA's involvement. If Teresa was shot on the way out, how didn't Steven hear/see what happened? I also don't necessarily by that they would go to CA IF they did accidently shoot Teresa. There wouldn't be, at this point, any debate about whether or not to go to LE- the 2nd shot would not have been accidental, it's a finishing shot, and first degree murder. If this was how it went down, I'm not convinced they'd bring CA in OR that CA would even want to be involved.

    Steven reports Teresa leaving his property by 3PM in his original statement. It is possible he is mistaken, but what do they do w. Teresa's body in that 45 min span. Remember, bus driver reports her car on the property at 3:30-3:45, as do Blaine and Brendan. This is the same time period (roughly) the propane guy spots a car that he believes may be hers as driving away from the Avery's. They likely aren't both right. I tend to think the propane sighting may be a misidentification. Also, RF does not arrive at the Avery property until 5PM, so a big hole in the theory there.

    What other vehicle is used? If Steven is having his bonfire, how is he not noticing them taking the burn barrel, leaving it back at Barb's, driving around w. the golf cart, and Teresa's car coming back to the property? Just luck that he happened to be absent during all of this?

    Is there any evidence that EA guided searchers where to look, or that there was a tip about the key?

    Key to proving this theory would be locking down a timeline, particularly when RF arrived. Next would be what type of gun they were hunting with (was it a .22 caliber?) After that, it would be Steven's movements during this time (could he be substituted in for CA?), as well as attempting to ascertain everyone else's movements during that time. If ST/BD are in no way involved, how to explain their explanations/timeline inconsistencies? Coincidence? Just some thoughts after reading this

    I am not seriously considering the theory I was giving, it's fargo-ish in nature as it's the snowball rolling down the hill that wasn't even a planned murder, so therefore no motive in killing.

    But, in terms of the bus driver, I did confirm in the dassey docs that the bus dropped off at the end of the road they call "The Long Road". I am having a harder and harder time believing the Bus Driver saw teresa halbach unless she went down that road. The van is all the way down steve's road. Go in to google maps in streetview, and go .2 miles down a long flat/straight road, and tell me that you can identify a car and a person from that distance. From my tests, I cannot. But very open to anyone giving an example where they can identify a vehicle or a person. Maybe I'll see if I can set up some kind of google map for others to see what I mean.

    This is why in the past I have asked when the bus driver made the statement. What kind of relationship she might have with anyone on the property. Why the prosecution decided to discard her testimony. Not saying she is lying, but at this point, I am saying I don't believe she could have seen her given the distance. Maybe that is what was demonstrated in court ?

    Now, the propane guy, is a very different situation because he saw a vehicle leaving, so potentially was even just feet from a vehicle leaving the property. I question his statement as well for the same reasons as the bus driver in terms of WHEN the statement was made, if he has potential connections to the junkyard -- he was their propane guy for many years potentially -- and the prosecution discards his testimony. Even an explanation would help me exclude or include him.

    But, based on the long road, I see it more likely that the propane guy was reliable than the bus driver. I'll see if I can do a google street view or a real live test with a camera sometime this week and post that to give us an idea of if it's even possible to have seen her and her vehicle. The actual road is not visible in google maps. But if anyone has a picture from the property from that angle, let me know. Possible there was one in the trial to bring up this very point.


    Robert Fabian not being there is big hole! I had no idea when he was there. Would be cool to have some kind of overall list of who was there and the possible time frames they were on the property. I personally have seen no evidence/testimony at all that tells me when fabian was there. So definitely point me to it!

    I just speculated on Earl tipping them off about the key. from this article, which is an account from Sturm : http://www.milwaukeemag.com/2006/05/01/blood-simple/
    At 9:50 a.m., Pam and Nicole pulled into the dirt driveway of Avery Auto Salvage. A German shepherd yanked at the end of a chain as they pushed open the door of the business office. But no one was there. Back outside, in the driveway, two men stood talking.
    “Are you an Avery?” Pam called out, and Earl Avery nodded. With his older brother, Chuck, Earl had taken over their father’s long-time business. On that day, Earl was the only Avery on the grounds. His parents and brothers had gone to their cabin in Crivitz, 100 miles north.
    “Would it be okay if my daughter and I searched the salvage yard for Teresa Halbach’s vehicle?” asked Pam. “It would relieve her parents’ minds if we could determine if the car is on the property or not.”
    Earl said it was okay. “I know how it feels,” he told her. “We lost a nephew, and I know how his parents felt.”
    Pam and Nicole Sturm headed toward the southeast corner of the property, checking every car and truck. Barely a half-hour later, Pam spotted a dark-green Toyota RAV4 along the edge of the pit. Tree branches covered its front end. A sheet of plywood and a rusty car hood leaned against its side. The license plates had been stripped off.
    So if you look at the map , first picture bottom of page , at this link : http://stevenaverycase.com/source-do....5hZG4WRG.dpbs

    You can see how close the area the vehicle was found is to Chuck Avery's and the business buildings of the junkyard, which is where they entered. Let's think about that for a moment, Earl is the reason no search warrant was needed. And just by walking them in a direction southward, what are the chances they are going to miss that vehicle with the cartoonish hiding attempt ? I say however long it took them to walk there, is the amount of time it would take, which is about right. Brendan and Blaine say that the Long Road is about 4-5 minutes to walk, when that is all you are doing. That road they took is similar in length, and if you are looking at cars along the way, 15-30 minutes makes alot of sense!

    So, again, I am in no way calling my theory likely, but wrapped in here are a few things I think everyone should consider :

    Bus Driver's testimony
    Propane Guy's testimony
    Long Road - is it possible to see teresa from the bus stop
    Earl is the one that gave access to the yard
    How close the rav4 was to Chuck Avery's
    How probable it is that Earl pointed them in a direction or the car was placed in the most logical direction from the business buildings, to easily be found ?


    All of these things are not heavily scrutinized, yet you can see they might have relevance if you examine them closer. I'm sure many don't even know Earl let the sturms on the property and that's why no search warrant was needed. Also do we know that ANYONE couldn't have been let on the property to search under the guise of looking for a car part ?

    My experience in going to a junk yard to get parts is that I'd be let in and I'd walk the junk yard looking for a car that might have my part. They'd allow me to point the car out, and if needed they might even make it more accessible so that I could take the part out myself. That would be for cars that weren't already stripped. So if the junkyard wasn't closed on that day, anyone could have entered the lot and said they needed a part.

    Did RH or SB or MH do that ? That's worth asking as well, even though it has nothing to do with this theory.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,438
    Quote Originally Posted by stephsb View Post
    The bus driver testified in court that she dropped Blaine and Brendan off between 3:30-3:40 at the end of Avery Road (not sure if this is what you are referring to as "long road". At the end of the driveway she saw Janda's van and a woman who appeared to be taking photographs.
    This is stated very clearly in Blaine's testimony in the dassey trial. He says that he got off the road and they walked the long road. He was questioned about how long that would take. If he was dropped of in front of the house - why would they ask him about how long and go through him saying it was a 4-5 minute walk and about a 2 minute run. I believe it was Brendan that said it was about 2 minutes to run.

    On google maps, I measured the distance as roughly .2 miles. So 1/5 of a mile. We probably need a thread for just this imo. So it can be discussed and made clear, without getting in the way of theories.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    402
    I was referring to the bus drivers testimony in the Avery trial, which is referenced in Avery's appeals. All I'm wondering if Avery road is the same as what Blaine calls the long road


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,438
    Quote Originally Posted by stephsb View Post

    The propane man testified that he saw a green SUV driving away from the Avery property, and he later said he thought than the car may have been Teresa- after Teresa had been reported missing. A lot of cars look similar to eachother, and he saw it driving- making the chances of him being mistaken much larger. Testifying later that you believe you saw a green SUV that may have been Teresa's is not super reliable testimony to me, although of course it bears consideration.
    Yep, I totally agree with your assessment.

    I only bring it up because it's avery's defense narrative. So if it's fair to use the bobby dassey sighting or the bus driver's sighting which are both questionable to me personally. Why not his too ?

    But, another good thread here to explain this in detail. Hopefully we see his testimony and maybe even figure out when he gave the statement. When him and the bus driver give statements is also relevant to believability.

    Also, knowing exactly where he was, and what road. What if he saw that suv leaving from the direction of Chuck Avery's place ?

    If that's the case, it might even just be a customer of the junk yard as the business building is that way.

    That's an important distinction because only family/friends/associates would go the other way -- as that's where janda, avery lived.

    So maybe even a better understanding of where customers come/go is important ?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,438
    Quote Originally Posted by stephsb View Post
    I was referring to the bus drivers testimony in the Avery trial, which is referenced in Avery's appeals. All I'm wondering if Avery road is the same as what Blaine calls the long road


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Are you saying that Blaine and Brendan might lie about where they were dropped off ? I am certain that the long road is the one that they got dropped off on according to them.

    Look at that image on the link I posted above. that map will give you a good idea of what I am talking about and it even notes the bus drop off estimated. It also notes the road as the "Long Road".


    Not sure if that image is from the trial or someone made it, but I have compared with google maps and it's consistent. I got my measurement of the road from google maps. More specifically the measurement from the end of the road to the location the van was.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    402
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxManning View Post
    Are you saying that Blaine and Brendan might lie about where they were dropped off ? I am certain that the long road is the one that they got dropped off on according to them.

    Look at that image on the link I posted above. that map will give you a good idea of what I am talking about and it even notes the bus drop off estimated. It also notes the road as the "Long Road".
    I'm not suggesting anyone is lying I'm just asking if the long road is the same road as Avery Road, where the bus driver states she drops them off at the end of every day.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    402
    Ok I looked at the map and it's really hard to read on my phone, but it looks like the long road is Avery road. Wouldn't the bus driver continue down it to turn around after dropping Brendan and Blaine off?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,438
    Avery Road is NOT the Long Road. Looking on google maps and comparing that image from the link above will help you see that the Long Road is a right turn off of Avery Road.

    Go into satellite view and compare with the image of the map at the link i posted above. The Long Road is not even a road on google maps, you can only see visually in satellite view.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,438
    Quote Originally Posted by stephsb View Post
    Ok I looked at the map and it's really hard to read on my phone, but it looks like the long road is Avery road. Wouldn't the bus driver continue down it to turn around after dropping Brendan and Blaine off?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I asked myself the same question, but seems kind of ridiculous to let the kids walk down the road you are going to drive down.

    Worth hearing her specify that, I agree. But I'd question whether she was nuts if she made those kids walk down the road while she went to the end and turned around

    But the question is worth asking - how did she turn around ? It looks from the map that she could go to the end of the long road or do it quicker by going straight.

    Either way - we don't know specifically.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    402
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxManning View Post
    I asked myself the same question, but seems kind of ridiculous to let the kids walk down the road you are going to drive down.

    Worth hearing her specify that, I agree. But I'd question whether she was nuts if she made those kids walk down the road while she went to the end and turned around
    Bus routes have specific drop off points. I attended high school in Sheboygan County and road the bus my Freshman year of high school and was dropped off further up the road w. A few other kids, even though the bus continued down my road and actually went past my house.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,438
    Quote Originally Posted by stephsb View Post
    Bus routes have specific drop off points. I attended high school in Sheboygan County and road the bus my Freshman year of high school and was dropped off further up the road w. A few other kids, even though the bus continued down my road and actually went past my house.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I think this is important. If she didn't go down that road, I just see no way she could have seen TH taking pictures of the van.

    Let me know if you can confirm that somewhere. I have looked quite a bit, and I can't find anything about this bus driver except was was in documentary.

    I think there is an easier turn around if she goes in the loop by the janda residence, but there is room to turn via turning in on the Long Road and backing up or by going forward and doing a 3 point turn. But if she didn't go down the road to the Janda's house , I can see why her testimony would be discarded by a jury with very little explaining.
    Last edited by MaxManning; 01-14-2016 at 08:08 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,438
    Quote Originally Posted by stephsb View Post
    I'm not suggesting anyone is lying I'm just asking if the long road is the same road as Avery Road, where the bus driver states she drops them off at the end of every day.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sorry, I wasn't sure what you were saying, I thought you were saying maybe they got dropped off at the end of long road and lied. But your explanation of bus stops and the craziness being accepted - I get it!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    SK, Canada
    Posts
    3,946
    stephsb ~ thanks for your post (#11 didn't want to quote because of length) with all times. All the times of people coming in and out sure makes me wonder who had the opportunity and "time" with everyone coming and going.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    402
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxManning View Post
    I think this is important. If she didn't go down that road, I just see no way she could have seen TH taking pictures of the van.

    Let me know if you can confirm that somewhere. I have looked quite a bit, and I can't find anything about this bus driver except was was in documentary.

    I think there is an easier turn around if sho goes in the loop by he janda residence, but there is room to turn via turning in on the Long Road and backing up or by going forward and doing a 3 point turn. But if she didn't go down the road to the Janda's house , I can see why her testimony would be discarded by a jury with very little explaining.
    I also agree about the loop in front of the janda's, it would be easiest. My parents house is about a half hour from the Avery salvage yard and I am home for another week, but we've had crappy weather in WI the last few days and I'm not keen on driving on roads I'm unfamiliar with, especially rural ones, or id go up there and check it out. I'm not sure if I could find out more about what she testified unless the transcripts come out. I do feel it's likely she continued down the road tho, turning a bus isn't very easy I imagine, and going thru the circle in front of the janda's would eliminate that. But I agree at this point we can't know for sure


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    402
    Quote Originally Posted by missy1974 View Post
    stephsb ~ thanks for your post (#11 didn't want to quote because of length) with all times. All the times of people coming in and out sure makes me wonder who had the opportunity and "time" with everyone coming and going.
    Agree about the time- with so many comings and goings, I really am struggling with how someone didn't see anything. I'd love to know actually what Dolores and her husband saw, if anything. I don't at all believe they are involved, but did they see anything unusual, and what were they doing?

    At this point, because of time discrepancies, I am most concerned with where CA was, since he was unaccounted for completely, but on the property. I feel as if most of this had to occur before 5 for sure, as that is when Barb is on the property, and I don't feel shed protect her family members at Brendan's expense. This would eliminate RF, as he's first arriving at that time.

    I think the crucial window is 3-5, possibly as wide as 245-5. If I was investigating, id be trying to verify the locations of CA, EA, BD, ST, and Steven for sure. I would have treated Blaine, Brendan, Bryan, Barb, RF, and the Avery parents as people who's locations should have been given not because they are suspects, but because they were on/around the property during the crucial times, or could verify the locations of others.

    I am going to try and start putting together a rough timeline, although I expect this to be an extremely time consuming task.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?
    By Tawny in forum Netflix Series: Making A Murderer
    Replies: 452
    Last Post: 12-01-2017, 02:49 PM
  2. Teresa Halbach
    By missy1974 in forum Netflix Series: Making A Murderer
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 03-23-2017, 10:00 PM
  3. Remembering Teresa Halbach *No Discussion*
    By shadowraiths in forum Netflix Series: Making A Murderer
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-22-2017, 08:18 AM
  4. Where Do You Think Teresa Halbach was Killed?
    By BigCityAccountant in forum Netflix Series: Making A Murderer
    Replies: 282
    Last Post: 01-17-2017, 09:45 AM
  5. WI - Teresa Marie Halbach, 25, Manitowoc, 31 Oct 2005
    By RPPaolin in forum Netflix Series: Making A Murderer
    Replies: 856
    Last Post: 12-22-2015, 08:54 AM

Tags for this Thread