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  1. #1
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    10-12 shots in the garage to kill Teresa Halbach and blood splatter

    Purpose of this thread is to discuss how reasonable it is that the killing of Teresa Halbach happened as Brendan described at one point in his confession interviews.

    This is one of the most common reasons people give for the murder not being able to happen in the garage, because there'd be splatter all over the place that'd be impossible to believe that Avery/Brendan or even a professional cleanup crew could do easily.

    Here are my thoughts on this topic :


    I don't believe 10-12 bullets were used, just because brendan said that and prosecution was dumb enough to accept that.
    If you are trying to kill someone, you don't just lay them on the ground and take 10-12 shots from a distance.
    2 shots to the head seems reasonable , likely with a pillow on the head.
    Avery's are skilled hunters and they likely understand blood splatter as they have undoubtedly have had to kill a deer that might be suffering if your first shot doesn't kill the deer.
    A human head is not a deer head, I understand that, but blood splatter and blowback are not just relevant to humans.
    Would like to hear from hunters about what they expect in a situation if/when they have to kill a deer via a shot to the head. What do they expect and what might they know about how a rifle shot to the head in terms of blowback/splatter.
    If a pillow or something of that nature was used, wouldn't the blood splatter be in that pillow ?
    We have heard people familiar with guns say they don't believe a .22 would go in the skull and then out the other side. So now splatter from whatever side of head was on the floor.
    It has been mentioned that the bullets were jacketed, because otherwise they couldn't have been tested for ballistics.
    Jacketed bullets would have survived the fire, same as the rivets. So if 10-12 shots occurred and are in the body or head, why weren't the bullets in the fire ?


    1. If there is no splatter, there is minimal cleanup, just a pool of blood , possibly consistent to the luminol hit on a 3x3 area in the garage. Could be human or deer blood.
    2. Does anyone really believe that they shot 10-12 times , possibly missing the body etc ?
    3. None of the bullets were found in garage in an 8 day search. 5-6 months later they find some bullets they missed and casings - oops, missed those.
    4. Does it really take a genius to understand splatter or how to block it, if you are a hunter ?


    I know some have a problem with the pillow or something of that nature. But I still haven't heard anyone say it's implausible for any other reason than they seemingly don't want to believe it - likely because it takes away the "where's all the blood splatter ? how did they clean that up ? " argument from the arsenal.

    All I am asking is for us to consider what is plausible, and imo rather likely. Yes, I think a hunter would fully understand what kind of mess was likely to occur there with 10-12 bullets at that range.

    10-12 shots might make sense if TH was running around the garage and this was a cartoon.

  2. #2
    I did a lot of rabbit hunting with a 22 rifle when I was a kid, and it was quite common to shoot a rabbit dead and not find even a drop of blood. Rarely did the bullet exit. I can easily imagine that a 22 shot to a human head might possibly leave very little blood.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Personofinterest View Post
    I did a lot of rabbit hunting with a 22 rifle when I was a kid, and it was quite common to shoot a rabbit dead and not find even a drop of blood. Rarely did the bullet exit. I can easily imagine that a 22 shot to a human head might possibly leave very little blood.
    Well we do know that she was bleeding, thus her bloody hair marks in the back of the rav4. So there should have been some blood somewhere. Especially if they claim she was shot 10-12 times only 2 times were supposedly in the head.

  4. #4
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    I do not believe the 10 - 12 shots. Two shots to the head with a 22 would make more sense to me.

  5. #5
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    I'll have to review and find the link, but iirc, the last number stated by Brendan on March 1 was five. First it was two, then ten, then five. Regardless, that they would arbitrarily pick any one of those numbers is absurd, imo.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bessie View Post
    I'll have to review and find the link, but iirc, the last number stated by Brendan on March 1 was five. First it was two, then ten, then five. Regardless, that they would arbitrarily pick any one of those numbers is absurd, imo.
    Right, and if you are using the splatter and all that versus the prosecutors narrative, the argument of the splatter makes sense.

    But this post is about saying that the prosecutors narrative doesn't make sense. But also points out that there's no need for there to be splatter at all , and therefore no splatter to clean up.

    The more bullets that got fired, the more unreasonable it becomes that they didn't find anything but 2 bullets - and those under suspicious circumstances.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxManning View Post
    No one is saying there was no blood. Read my post again.

    You say 10-12 bullets, yet this post is about that not being reasonable.

    I honestly don't care what the prosecution says, I am talking about what is reasonable.

    I don't think it's reasonable that there was 10-12 shots.

    But I also don't think it's reasonable to say that someone couldn't be shot in the head twice in a way that doesn't result in blood splatter.
    I remember reading on one of the reports that there was blood spatter on the back of her SUV. I guess it landed on her vehicle but nowhere else in the garage.

  8. #8
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    So no splatter from shots. She was also said to be stabbed. There had to be some blood other than the car.

    Did they use luminol? Was it positive for blood.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MEMEto5 View Post
    So no splatter from shots. She was also said to be stabbed. There had to be some blood other than the car.

    Did they use luminol? Was it positive for blood.
    Yes, there was a luminol hit on the garage floor as I said for 3x3 spot.

    They couldn't confirm if it was human blood or deer blood or any specific type of blood.

    There is no mention of cleaning up deer blood on that day, to my knowledge.

    Dassey defense in his trial says that brendan and steve cleaned up something from steve's car with bleach, paint thinner and gasoline.

    So we should accept that they cleaned up something, but can't conclude it was human blood.

  10. #10
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    Ok Max... I asked my expert (aka my deer hunting hubby) his thoughts.

    Would like to hear from hunters about what they expect in a situation if/when they have to kill a deer via a shot to the head. What do they expect and what might they know about how a rifle shot to the head in terms of blowback/splatter.
    His answer to me was... first off, you wouldn't be using a .22 LOL But he did say, he would be using a more powerful gun and he said it would go right through, and he doesn't think there would even be much spatter. (my feeling is... there may be very minimal spatter, but unless it was looked for forensically, it may not be visible to the eye... and on that note, IIRC SA's gun was processed and no TH DNA/blood was found on it)

    I also asked him about the deer blood thing and hanging a deer and if a 3x3 space would be reasonable or not. He said that when he hangs a deer, he puts plastic underneath (for blood). He said he knows other people will use woodchips, or maybe even kitty litter. He also said the amount of blood that might 'pool' also depends on how the deer was dealt with in the bushes, he said most people will gut the deer in the field.... and he said some will even quarter it in the bush, resulting in less blood when hanging it in the garage. He said it would not be unreasonable depending on how the deer is 'prepared', and if it is deer blood, it's more than likely more than 1 deer but maybe hung in the same spot over years. ****** my note: I just eat the deer sausage.... I now know way more than I ever did about the process to get the deer LOL He was delicate when telling me because he knows I get grossed out LOL

    I do NOT believe there was 10-12 bullets. I only believe there were the 2 bullets.... why? the anthropologist said so after seeing the skull bones, and because of the lack of blood in the back of the SUV. If she was shot 2 times in the head, no reason to shoot her any more than that, and if she had been, I would expect to see more 'pools' of blood in the back of the SUV. I also believe that if it was a .22 that shot her.... those bullets did not exit her skull, thus making me wonder where are those pesky little bullets? And if I believe she was only shot 2 times and they were in her head and did not exit..... then explain where that bullet found months later came from? Well I can't, because according to experts, there was 2 shots to the head, and spots and patterns of blood consistent with those shots to the head and being smeared with her hair.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxManning View Post
    Yes, there was a luminol hit on the garage floor as I said for 3x3 spot.

    They couldn't confirm if it was human blood or deer blood or any specific type of blood.

    There is no mention of cleaning up deer blood on that day, to my knowledge.

    Dassey defense in his trial says that brendan and steve cleaned up something from steve's car with bleach, paint thinner and gasoline.

    So we should accept that they cleaned up something, but can't conclude it was human blood.
    Luminal reacts to certain types of bleach. There may have never been any blood on the floor at all. The luminal just hit on the bleach.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinsaint View Post
    Luminal reacts to certain types of bleach. There may have never been any blood on the floor at all. The luminal just hit on the bleach.

    That's correct. I am by no means a blood expert or a luminol expert. You can go read the 4/17 dassey file transcripts to understand it all better. But the defense doesn't dispute that it's blood, but rather get the expert to agree that it could be deer blood.

    I honestly can't say it's blood, deer blood, or whatever. But is it consistent with a pool of blood ? sure. Was Brendan and Steve in the garage cleaning that area with bleach, paint thinner, and gas. Yep. That's conceded by the defense.

    But I'm going along the theory of what matches. The scene doesn't match 10-12 bullets. The scene doesn't match blood splatter all over. But the scene does match in terms of being consistent with possibly blood and bleach used to clean up.

    Nothing factual, but I'm just saying, it's consistent with that scenario. There's nothing there to rule blood out as a possibility.

    I leave that aspect to anyone who wants to argue if it's blood or not. All I'm talking about here is that I don't believe 10-12 bullets make any sense at all, and that I think it's entirely possible to shoot someone twice in the head in that garage without massive splatter. That's all.

    There was a luminol hit. If someone wants to open a thread to discuss blood or not, that would make sense. I just noted that the 3x3 spot that had a luminol hit is consistent with someone being shot there, if it is blood.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxManning View Post
    Yes, there was a luminol hit on the garage floor as I said for 3x3 spot.

    They couldn't confirm if it was human blood or deer blood or any specific type of blood.

    There is no mention of cleaning up deer blood on that day, to my knowledge.

    Dassey defense in his trial says that brendan and steve cleaned up something from steve's car with bleach, paint thinner and gasoline.

    So we should accept that they cleaned up something, but can't conclude it was human blood.

    I did not see this in the documentary - was it in there and I missed it?
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BethInAK View Post
    I did not see this in the documentary - was it in there and I missed it?
    If you have only seen the documentary or a Nancy Grace special, there are many things you haven't heard about!

    Luminol hit was not mentioned in the documentary. There are a whole lot of things that never get mentioned in the documentary , and there is a thread devoted to just that. Not sure if luminol hit is listed in that thread, I'll check.


    Luminol hit is discussed in dassey trial transcripts. a 3x3 patch in the garage.

    I do encourage you to check out discussions in the numerous other threads, because many points not brought up in the documentary are brought up and discussed.

  15. #15
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    WARNING- POST CONTAINS SOME GRAPHIC MEDICAL INFO
    Moving text down to allow any WSer who doesn't want to read anything graphic to scroll past this post.



    I can tell you what sort of bleeding I have seen from two people with fatal gunshot wounds from a .22 caliber shot ( single shot in both cases) who were received into ER via EMS.
    One was a dying teen who committed suicide via a .22 caliber handgun ( the suicide note was in the pocket of his jeans and one of the policemen in the ER found it), and in the other case, I observed the appearance of a very small caliber gunshot wound was from a woman who was shot slightly off center in her forehead. The lady was clinically but newly dead (blood was still wet) on arrival by ambulance. Again, the ER doctors and police determined the shot to be from a .22 caliber weapon and it was a very small hole consistent in size to the bullets in my own .22 handgun. For those who don't know the size, a reference would be-- not quite as large as the diameter of a regular yellow pencil.

    Both cases showed similar clinical results with regard to amount of blood present. There was a small amount of overt fresh blood on both foreheads at the site of the entry wound, 2 to 3 cc's in each case.

    There was no blood visible on either face in any other place, or any clothing. In other words, there was not enough blood to drip onto their faces or into their hair or ears when in supine positions on the ambulance stretchers or before that time. There was no blood splatter visible on their faces. In the case of the young man, the wound appeared to be very small to me, consistent with the size of a .22 caliber weapon.

    This is graphic and I am very sorry, but there was some fresh but not continuing or current oozing of brain tissue from the entry wound of the woman who arrived DOA. When the obviously dying young man first arrived, the brain tissue was both damaged severely in the area of the gunshot, and under a great deal of pressure as there was spontaneous upward velocity of soft tissue consistent in appearance with tiny pieces of brain matter, which if not contained, would probably have contaminated nearby objects and personnel. The extruding brain tissue was the reason the doctor instructed me to apply manual pressure with 4x4 gauze layers over the wound until such time as he expired, which was less than 10 minutes after arrival.

    Because both cases had to be investigated by LE, who were present, they and we concurrently examined our ER stretchers, the floor, the clothing of both people, and their hair for shell casings, bullets, or any other evidence and the ER physicians did thorough exams of their scalps for exit wounds. EMS personnel were on site and reported no projectiles in their equipment. Neither the doctors or any of the nurses assisting them found an exit wound or any blood on the back of the head in either person.


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