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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeekingJana View Post
    THIS answers the most pressing question I have had about the crime scene, or potential crime scene, as handcuffs and leg irons were insinuated in a very brief preview of the Netflix saga, ( sorry but I can't call it a documentary at this point) then never mentioned again in connection to the crime.
    The photos I saw of his bed didn't have any handcuffs or leg irons, I enlarged the photos and looked very carefully. I have been wondering if their one- time mention of it was a ratings draw or if there was truth to this. I haven't been able to find the info in court docs. but I haven't read all search warrants and property list of what was removed from the house.

    Oh,wait: Since this is such a weird case all around, DID LE remove these things from the closet and from the house after obtaining a proper search warrant??
    Standard iron handcuffs and leg irons were found in the bookcase/nightstand next to SA's bed. See BD's trial transcript, Day 2, April 17. I don't recall the page numbers, but they're mentioned in Sgt. Tyson's testimony. He was the first witness up that day. You'll find mention of them elsewhere, but that's the reference I can recall right now off the top of my head. As others have stated, however, it was much ado about nothing. JMO

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...php?p=12282490

    ETA: Present was a mixture of DNA consistent with SA's standard sample, and that from unknown source. Teresa and Brendan were excluded from both items.

    Dassey Trial, Day 3, April 18, Culhane's testimony regarding DNA on CJ1 and CJ2 beginning on p. 95
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9dpNu3jLO3tWEtlMGRUREVQQVU/view?pref=2&pli=1

    Avery Exhibit 313, Culhane's DNA analysis report, p.7
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1nzus-fCQcoYWY3cjNrV3lZa0U/view?pref=2&pli=1
    Last edited by bessie; 01-17-2016 at 07:05 PM.
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  2. #32
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    shadowraiths is offline LISK Liaison, Verified Forensic Psychology Specialist, infoSec Architect
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    All this time I thought the 'sex toys' that Kratz was repeatedly salivating (sweating?) about and trying to make sound ominous by calling them handcuffs and leg irons, belonged to SA.

    Well, apparently not.

    From Mr. McCorkle's blog, dated April 17, 2007:

    So far, there is some new evidence in this trial. The prosecution has introduced leg irons and handcuffs owned by Brendanís mother, Barb Janda Tadych. These items were found in her bedroom. Whether this is real evidence or an attempt to deceive the jury and undermine the mother remains to be seen. But, this does not fill in the blanks from the Avery Trial.

    I really should not be surprised. I recall, when seeing the fluffy pink hand cuffs...


    ... it struck me as odd, in that JS did not seem the type that would be into the whole fluffy pink bit. Even so, this is not the main point.

    From reading his Dassey archives, it appears that he thinks they were trying to "frame" several of the Averys, not just SA. He makes a compelling argument, primarily based upon the Dassey interrogations, to support his contention.

    Notably, what makes his posts/opinion much, much more believable, is that, unlike us, he's not playing catch up. That is, he appears to have been following the trial. Importantly, most of his Avery/Dassey/Kratz related posts were made before the viral Making A Murderer movie was released to Netflix.



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  3. #33
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    here are the photo's of the one's introduced into SA's trial
    Exhibit-173-Handcuffs.jpgExhibit-174-Leg-Irons-150x150.jpg

    I don't really understand why they were introduced into either trial.... there was nothing linking them to TH, and in fact, they did have DNA on them, SA's and 2 unidentified females, so not like he cleaned them and 'removed' TH's DNA.... unless, again, he is just that smart LOL

    As for Barb's pink fluffy one's.... what relevance could they have had? Again, they didn't have TH's DNA on them. How many of us would want LE rifling through our bedrooms if one of our kids got in trouble? and anything they find, they use against them? (NOT ME LOL)

    I agree about the blogger.... he has followed this for years, I read a lot of his blog when I first started researching because a lot of news stories and video's had been removed, except his.

  4. #34
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    What kind of handcuffs/leg irons (and are those the same thing?) were found in Avery's house? Were they real handcuffs or more like these ones found in the Janda/Dassey house (aka the cheap kind you'd find at a sex shop)? I just don't think someone could be actually be restrained that well in those sort of handcuffs since they're more for play and not for someone actually struggling to get out of them. If someone were actually in danger it seems they'd have a good chance at breaking them, slipping out of them, or pulling the metal links apart since they're probably pretty pliable. Even if they didn't successfully get out of them, the handcuffs would at least show evidence that they tried. The links in the middle would be stretched apart, there'd be DNA all over the inside from trying to slide their hands and feet out, and of course whatever they were attached to like bedposts would be covered in scratches from the metal being scraped against them in a struggle. Were these pink furry ones presented at Steven Avery's trial? Did they belong to Barb Janda or were they Avery's and hidden at the Janda household? I don't understand the point of bringing in a pair of obvious sex handcuffs without the victim's DNA or signs of struggle on them, not found at any crime scene, to somehow use as evidence. All this shows is that someone gets bored in the bedroom once in a while (and it seems like they were trying to paint him as a pervert which is irrelevant). I can't think of many torturers/rapists/murderers who shop at Lover's Lane for their supplies.
    Last edited by missatomiccake; 03-12-2016 at 04:33 PM.

  5. #35
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    Madeleine74 is offline Of course it's my opinion; who else's would it be?
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    I can't think of many torturers/rapists/murderers who shop at Lover's Lane for their supplies.
    Where do they shop then? What about before they ever kill?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by missatomiccake View Post
    What kind of handcuffs/leg irons (and are those the same thing?) were found in Avery's house? Were they real handcuffs or more like these ones found in the Janda/Dassey house (aka the cheap kind you'd find at a sex shop)? I just don't think someone could be actually be restrained that well in those sort of handcuffs since they're more for play and not for someone actually struggling to get out of them. If someone were actually in danger it seems they'd have a good chance at breaking them, slipping out of them, or pulling the metal links apart since they're probably pretty pliable. Even if they didn't successfully get out of them, the handcuffs would at least show evidence that they tried. The links in the middle would be stretched apart, there'd be DNA all over the inside from trying to slide their hands and feet out, and of course whatever they were attached to like bedposts would be covered in scratches from the metal being scraped against them in a struggle. Were these pink furry ones presented at Steven Avery's trial? Did they belong to Barb Janda or were they Avery's and hidden at the Janda household? I don't understand the point of bringing in a pair of obvious sex handcuffs without the victim's DNA or signs of struggle on them, not found at any crime scene, to somehow use as evidence. All this shows is that someone gets bored in the bedroom once in a while (and it seems like they were trying to paint him as a pervert which is irrelevant). I can't think of many torturers/rapists/murderers who shop at Lover's Lane for their supplies.
    I don't understand why they entered them into the trials either, they didn't have TH's DNA on them. SA's had his and 2 unidentified females DNA, and NOT TH's.

    From what I understand from reading elsewhere, they were 'play' one's and the links would break or bend in a struggle, but I'm not sure. Either way.... the one's found in SA's bedroom and the pink fluffy one's found in Barb's bedroom.... did not have TH's DNA on them.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeleine74 View Post
    Where do they shop then? What about before they ever kill?
    I don't really get your question but I assume they'd purchase actual handcuffs you can't escape from or more extreme BDSM equipment. A lot of websites sell stuff like that for people who are using it consensually and a lot of people make it themselves. Of the torturers/rapists/murderers I can think of off the top of my head most of them made their own bondage devices. I'm thinking of examples like the kidnapping of Colleen Stan (luckily she wasn't murdered) or David Parker Ray but there are many others. Personally I think if Steven Avery did in fact commit the crime (personally I don't think there's enough evidence to support this), he seems like the type of person who would just use rope or zip ties. Both are inexpensive and easily disposable, you could find them at a hardware store or he might have them around his property, and they'd do a better job of keeping someone's wrists or ankles bound than cheap play handcuffs from a sex shop.

  8. #38
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    "Leg irons" LOL... Ok...

  9. #39
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    Both BJ and SA owned restraints to which he has admitted to. Its strange that McCorkle doesn't mention that.

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  10. #40
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    I'm just glad to finally see a picture of the "leg irons" in question... I seriously had a picture in my mind more along the lines of big, heavy ankle cuffs with a rusty padlock or something. Good to know now that we're talking basically fuzzy handcuffs with a longer chain, more "spice things up" than the "medieval torture" like I first thought.


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksterling3408 View Post
    I'm just glad to finally see a picture of the "leg irons" in question... I seriously had a picture in my mind more along the lines of big, heavy ankle cuffs with a rusty padlock or something. Good to know now that we're talking basically fuzzy handcuffs with a longer chain, more "spice things up" than the "medieval torture" like I first thought.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but the pink one's belonged to BJ and there was another pair which belonged to SA. I believe the one's SA owned can be seen here.

    http://www.stevenaverycase.org/photos/

    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #42
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    One thing that long confused me, is the pic of KK holding BJ's pink cuffs, in what appears to be a court setting. Why? Who cares if she's into kinky stuff. Unless they contained DNA that connects them to Ms. Halbach, which they did not, they seem to be, imho, a red herring... maybe just to inflame people (the jury?) who take issue with regard to the kink stuff.



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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowraiths View Post
    One thing that long confused me, is the pic of KK holding BJ's pink cuffs, in what appears to be a court setting. Why? Who cares if she's into kinky stuff. Unless they contained DNA that connects them to Ms. Halbach, which they did not, they seem to be, imho, a red herring... maybe just to inflame people (the jury?) who take issue with regard to the kink stuff.
    Exactly. I really, really don't get it.

    TBH I also question the relevance of SA's handcuffs too.
    I guess they were supposed to reinforce the image of SA as some sort of sexual deviant and bolster BD's story about TH being tied to the bed.
    IMO they do neither.

    What does puzzle me though is the unknown female DNA on SA's cuffs.
    Weren't these the ones he was supposed to have bought a couple of weeks before TH's murder?
    If so, where on earth did that other DNA come from?
    The shop assistant who sold them to him? Playing around with another woman while Jodi was still locked up?
    Or if you want to go down a more sinister route (I don't) : More contamination in the testing or there's another pair of cuffs belonging to SA as yet unlocated?

    It's most likely completely irrelevant in the grander scheme of things and I don't buy into the conspiracy theories . . . but it's a little detail that bugs me.
    Sarah

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah View Post
    Exactly. I really, really don't get it.

    TBH I also question the relevance of SA's handcuffs too.
    I guess they were supposed to reinforce the image of SA as some sort of sexual deviant and bolster BD's story about TH being tied to the bed.
    IMO they do neither.

    What does puzzle me though is the unknown female DNA on SA's cuffs.
    Weren't these the ones he was supposed to have bought a couple of weeks before TH's murder?
    If so, where on earth did that other DNA come from?
    The shop assistant who sold them to him? Playing around with another woman while Jodi was still locked up?
    Or if you want to go down a more sinister route (I don't) : More contamination in the testing or there's another pair of cuffs belonging to SA as yet unlocated?

    It's most likely completely irrelevant in the grander scheme of things and I don't buy into the conspiracy theories . . . but it's a little detail that bugs me.
    Hi Sarah,
    I have spent a great deal of time researching how DNA is collected and the art we might think it is is actually quite flaky. It is possible to find a sample of DNA, but then be unable to test it due to a myriad of circumstances.

    Matching it to someone is quite a complex process which requires multiple tests, and if there is not enough DNA to be tested, then the process is declared inconclusive. So it would be possible to find a match for someone, but then due to there not being enough of the sample left, testing it would be impossible.

    It is Bonkers I know, but it is clearly possible that someone could leave their DNA at a crime scene, but because there was not enough of it for a second test, it becomes inadmissible.

    As for your thoughts on SA? Yes, the prosecution did try to paint a negative picture IMHO, however I believe that they were right to do so. I think I am in the minority camp that believes SA is guilty. That said, it is great to get everyone else's perspective on this.
    We are not all born equal so Justice always has to be.

  15. #45
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    Hi Hoosen_Fenger,

    I'm not sure that you're in that much of a minority.
    FWIW I also believe in SA's guilt, although with so many people convinced of his innocence I find myself compelled to look at the other side and make my own mind up.
    To date I haven't seen anything to persuade me otherwise, but I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong if and when something new comes to light.
    As for BD - I don't know. I believe that he helped SA in some shape or form but I'm not completely sure of exactly [B]how[B] involved he was.

    The nice thing about this forum though, is that people from both sides of the fence are able to have a sensible, constructive discussion without the personal insults that you see elsewhere - and I have to say that I do enjoy debating the evidence and hearing different perspectives.

    Anyway back to the DNA question
    I know it's not an exact science, but I can't help thinking that if the result was inconclusive or there was insufficient quantity to fully test, the prosecution still wouldn't have missed an opportunity to go down the road of "There was female DNA on the cuffs and we can't rule out that it belonged to TH".
    Either way, I'm starting to think that these weren't the new cuffs purchased a couple of weeks before so I guess that becomes a moot point.
    Sarah

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