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  1. #1
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    For Those Who Do Not Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

    Most of the threads on this Avery board are all about the belief in a conspiracy and framing and planting of evidence.

    There are folks who are not convinced Avery was framed and do not see a conspiracy. Here's a place to discuss the other side of the case -- the side in which there isn't a conspiracy. <modsnip>

    What evidence took you over the line of 'reasonable doubt?'

    What evidence did you discard, if any?

    Discuss!
    Last edited by shadowraiths; 02-05-2016 at 05:38 PM. Reason: please avoid painting people with opposing views with derogatory characterizations. thanks!

  2. #2
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    Here are my musings:

    For me, I just see Avery for what he is, which is not a very nice guy who was and still is, if released, totally capable of killing people. When you hear a story about this "poor innocent" guy who spent 18 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit you think oh my gosh, how horrible. And, it is. But, he wasn't truly innocent. Six of those 18 years he was concurrently serving a sentence for assaulting a woman. You never hear that. Filmmakers and big Avery supporters try and brush his criminal history under the rug but the reality is that he was a young man who was unable to go more than about a year at a time without getting caught committing crimes. And, the crimes were escalating in nature. First it's robbery, then it's animal cruelty and then assault. It's not a big stretch to rape and/or murder with that criminal history.

    I also disregard any arguments about how he was framed to avoid a big judgment in Avery's civil case. People act as if because he asked for millions of dollars he was going to get that much. There recently was a case in Wisconsin of a man who could show that the police planted evidence (oddly, his name was Avery too) and a civil jury gave him very little as a result. Avery was never going to get $30 plus million dollars and even if he had it's not as though that money was going to come out of the detectives pockets.

    If the police had been desperate to get Avery back in prison they could have planted heroin, a handgun, or something else on his property or in the trailer far easier than either actually killing Theresa themselves or lucking into someone else killing her and disposing of her body on his property. And, as it turns out, they didn't even have to plant a firearm because he already had one despite being a felon and knowing he couldn't. Huh, big surprise that not even out of prison two years and he was committing more crimes. Currently, he is properly in prison serving time for being a felon in possession of a firearm so I'll worry about Avery being wrongfully in prison again in another year when he'd be due to be released if he hadn't been convicted for Theresa's murder.

    I also see the phone calls as just a huge red flag. That he was always specifically requesting Theresa, that he purposely tried to make her uncomfortable by opening the door in just a towel, that he gave his sister's name when he called to request her, that he called her repeatedly but blocked his phone number, etc. just really starts to add up to something not being right.

    And then there's Brendan. Although I believe some of what he told the police maybe have been fabricated, I don't believe the overall gist of what he said was. I feel bad for him because he was a kid with a crappy uncle who pulled him into something he was wholly unable to handle. He probably didn't feel he had a choice but to go long with what was happening, be it killing Theresa or just being involved in burning her body, but instead of arguing that, he chose to confess and then recant.

    I let time get away from me. I'm late getting the kids in bed but I'll be sure to check back later to see what others think.

  3. #3
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    For Those Who Do Not Think Avery was Framed &amp; Evidence Planted - Discuss

    He lost me at "threw cat in fire".

    Honestly, the fad of heavily edited "injustice porn" is starting to make me feel like I'm living in bizarro world, after so many years of following true crime.
    “Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things.” -- Terry Pratchett

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsmevkb View Post
    Here are my musings:

    For me, I just see Avery for what he is, which is not a very nice guy who was and still is, if released, totally capable of killing people. When you hear a story about this "poor innocent" guy who spent 18 years in prison for a rape he didn't commit you think oh my gosh, how horrible. And, it is. But, he wasn't truly innocent. Six of those 18 years he was concurrently serving a sentence for assaulting a woman. You never hear that. Filmmakers and big Avery supporters try and brush his criminal history under the rug but the reality is that he was a young man who was unable to go more than about a year at a time without getting caught committing crimes. And, the crimes were escalating in nature. First it's robbery, then it's animal cruelty and then assault. It's not a big stretch to rape and/or murder with that criminal history.

    I also disregard any arguments about how he was framed to avoid a big judgment in Avery's civil case. People act as if because he asked for millions of dollars he was going to get that much. There recently was a case in Wisconsin of a man who could show that the police planted evidence (oddly, his name was Avery too) and a civil jury gave him very little as a result. Avery was never going to get $30 plus million dollars and even if he had it's not as though that money was going to come out of the detectives pockets.

    If the police had been desperate to get Avery back in prison they could have planted heroin, a handgun, or something else on his property or in the trailer far easier than either actually killing Theresa themselves or lucking into someone else killing her and disposing of her body on his property. And, as it turns out, they didn't even have to plant a firearm because he already had one despite being a felon and knowing he couldn't. Huh, big surprise that not even out of prison two years and he was committing more crimes. Currently, he is properly in prison serving time for being a felon in possession of a firearm so I'll worry about Avery being wrongfully in prison again in another year when he'd be due to be released if he hadn't been convicted for Theresa's murder.

    I also see the phone calls as just a huge red flag. That he was always specifically requesting Theresa, that he purposely tried to make her uncomfortable by opening the door in just a towel, that he gave his sister's name when he called to request her, that he called her repeatedly but blocked his phone number, etc. just really starts to add up to something not being right.

    And then there's Brendan. Although I believe some of what he told the police maybe have been fabricated, I don't believe the overall gist of what he said was. I feel bad for him because he was a kid with a crappy uncle who pulled him into something he was wholly unable to handle. He probably didn't feel he had a choice but to go long with what was happening, be it killing Theresa or just being involved in burning her body, but instead of arguing that, he chose to confess and then recant.

    I let time get away from me. I'm late getting the kids in bed but I'll be sure to check back later to see what others think.
    Well said! I so agree with you!

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEmory View Post
    He lost me at "threw cat in fire".

    Honestly, the fad of heavily edited "injustice porn" is starting to make me feel like I'm living in bizarro world, after so many years of following true crime.

    It is bizarre I agree, especially with layer upon layer of conspiracy alleged and the ascribing of inner thoughts to people in the case. I don't think rationality of the scenarios are considered; it's like a high is achieved by thinking of the most outrageous manipulations possible and going "yeah, yeah, that's possible." It's possible any of us could be abducted by aliens, but probable? Not so much.

    As for me the evidence that is compelling:

    - She was meeting with SA that afternoon
    - She was never seen again
    - She was never heard from again
    - Her phone had no activity after 2:41pm and it stopped pinging sometime between 2:41pm and 4:35pm
    - Her SUV was still on the property (with her blood & hair inside)
    - Her body was on the property, burned
    - Her clothes were burned and remnants found in the burn pit (rivets from jeans)
    - Her belongings were on the property, burned
    - SA called 3 times that day, hiding his phone number twice, and he called her long after she would have already left if she were still alive.
    - SA never tried to contact her or Auto Trader again after that 4:35pm 13 second call (so much for the 'need to have another photograph taken')
    - BD claimed he saw her that afternoon
    - A bonfire, lasting several hours, was held within a couple hours after her disappearance & Avery did not disclose that fact until he eventually admitted it to his sister in a phone call (gotcha!)
    - Cleaning of an area of the garage with: bleach, paint thinner & something else.

    And with that list I never once mentioned the key, SA's blood, or the bullet with some of TH's DNA found in the garage. That's icing on the cake, but IMO guilt could be determined beyond a reasonable doubt, without any of those pieces that people claim were planted.

  6. #6
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    *No one else was more obsessed with Teresa's movements that day than SA.
    *He insisted Teresa only should come take photos.
    *He hid his number from her
    *She was last seen walking to his trailer
    *His story changed
    *Her car found on the same property it was last seen on
    *The only car out of almost 4000 that was camouflaged to hide it.
    *Car was found in close proximity to car crusher and battery was disconnected as per procedure for all cars about to be crushed.
    *SA DNA present on hood latch
    *SA blood present in several places inside the car
    *SA had a cut on his finger that had previously been bleeding
    *Teresa's charred remains found in the same vicinity she was last seen
    *SA & BD cleaned the garage using various chemicals the same evening she was there
    *SA & BD chose that same night to have a bonfire in the same location most of her remains were found
    *Some of her belongings were found burned on BD's property.
    * The key is the nail in the coffin

    Each piece of evidence, on it's own, can be explained away towards somewhere else. However, the totality of it points to SA as the main culprit with some help from BD.

  7. #7
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    For most of his life, SA was a loser. In trouble with the law for various crimes which mainly consisted of violence towards what he considered weaker opponents such as women and pussy cats.

    He spent 18yrs in prison, 12 of which were for rape. After being exonerated and released, he committed the same crime he was falsely accused of within a year TWICE. Bye bye sympathy.

    He was giving interviews, people now wanted to know him, talk to him. He gave speeches and men in suits were giving him standing ovations when he entered or left the room. Intelligent, educated women gave him their undivided attention when he spoke. This short man now felt taller than he ever had.

    Not only did he think he was going to be a multimillionaire, he incorrectly assumed no one would dare point the finger at him again.

    Had he not been caught, I fully believe he would have killed again. He was feeling invincible.

    There is no question who killed Teresa. He did it. The only mystery that remains for me, is what kept or prevented him from crushing the car?

  8. #8
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    For all the reasons already given, I'm somewhere around 70/30 towards SA's guilt.
    What's missing for me, and what would tilt my opinion all the way over to guilty is a cohesive narrative and timeline that ties all the evidence in together to give a credible account of what actually happened.

    The framing theory just doesn't do it for me. Too complex, the logistics of it don't make sense nor does the motivation. And it relies on too many coincidences - something had to have happened to TH on a day when she'd been to visit SA, when he just happened to be having a bonfire and conveniently decided to clean up an area of floor in his garage. Having said that, I cannot discount the possibility that some evidence may have been tampered with in order to strengthen the case against SA.

    The story put forward in BD's confession doesn't work for me either though. I'm undecided about the extent of his involvement, but there's no doubt in my mind that he was fed a particular narrative and that version of events just doesn't make sense to me. In particular I struggle with the stabbing and slashing taking place on the bed not being backed up with at least some blood evidence.

    The one thing I'd love to know is whether there's any evidence of how recent the damage to the front of TH's RAV4 was.
    There's a particular line of thought that I just can't help my mind from going down at the moment and some more information on that would help me to either dismiss it altogether or decide it's worth further thought.

    If that damage to her car was recent, I can't help wondering whether perhaps the job want as normal, but she had a minor accident on leaving the junk yard.
    Not enough to disable the car, but sufficient that she didn't want to continue her journey without it being checked out.
    If phone reception was patchy, what would be more logical than returning to a nearby place where they work on cars to seek assistance from somebody she knows?

    A routine photography job, followed by a return visit would tie up a lot of loose ends for me and present a more logical version of what may have happened.

    > It fits with the propane guy's potential sighting of the car leaving and the bus driver seeing her performing the job.

    > It would make SA's actions opportunist rather than pre-planned - which IMO fits better with his personality and IQ.
    I'll willingly accept that he may have been obsessing over Teresa or at the very least had a bit of a 'thing' for her - there's enough out there to suggest that he had a history of that sort of behaviour and I see no reason to doubt the 'towel' story.
    However, the idea that he'd planned all of this out or would be stupid enough to attack somebody on his own property when plenty of people knew that she'd be there has never sat right with me.
    An unexpected return would give him the opportunity to act on impulse and perhaps even foster the belief that she'd checked in to say she'd left the junkyard and nobody knew she had gone back.

    > The lack of blood evidence in the garage becomes less of an issue for me if he'd perhaps lured her in there under the pretext of working on her car.
    I'm convinced that a clean up occurred in the garage, but what if the clean up was to cover evidence that a car had recently been worked on in there and not to get rid of blood at all?
    (This version of events kind of leads me to him lulling her into a false sense of security while he worked on the car and then restraining her or coercing her back into the car with the killing itself occurring somewhere other than on his immediate property - perhaps elsewhere on the junkyard???)
    Last edited by Sarah; 02-05-2016 at 08:59 AM.
    Sarah

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limaes View Post
    The only mystery that remains for me, is what kept or prevented him from crushing the car?
    My thoughts on that are that it's a matter of timing.
    I don't think it's a coincidence that the car was left in proximity to the car crusher. IMO the intent was to crush it at some point.
    I don't have any experience of car crushing but I'd imagine that it's a noisy operation and likely to draw attention and notice if it's done at a random time of afternoon/evening.

    A question that I'd really like answered is around the usual schedule for crushing cars at the junkyard and whose responsibility it was to perform the operation.
    Was it an ad hoc thing as and when a car needed crushing or was it more a case of every second Wednesday is 'car crush day' and we line them all up and do them all in one go?
    The answer to that would go a long way to clarifying my thoughts.
    Sarah

  10. #10
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    I am a person with strong instinct/gut feeling/sixth sense - call it what you will. I don't have a crystal ball or psychic powers (in fact I'm very sceptical about all that stuff) but sometimes I just mean that I'm certain of something. I'm sure you've all felt the same at some point. You just kind of KNOW.

    In threads discussing case after case, when I see people unsure of guilt or verdict, getting anxious about justice not taking its course, I have that 'certainty' about the outcome and most of the time I'm right.

    Even when I'm not, I can always come down on one side or another. There was a high profile murder case where opinion was divided (I won't say which one because it has nothing to do with Steven Avery). A majority think 'not guilty' and a minority who think 'guilty'. I am very firmly in the minority. I could be wrong in terms of the reality, but I am in no doubt as to my decision. It's the side of the fence on which I fall.

    But with this case, I can't get off the fence at all. I have no instinct, no gut feeling to help me, the facts of the case, so strange and convoluted, watching the documentaries, reading the editorials, threads and discussions and I still don't know. There's so much that doesn't add up, so many theories and opinions and contradictions. I've never had this before - just not knowing what to think and it's uncomfortable territory to be in.

    The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end .... there it is.
    Winston Churchill


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limaes View Post
    For most of his life, SA was a loser. In trouble with the law for various crimes which mainly consisted of violence towards what he considered weaker opponents such as women and pussy cats.

    He spent 18yrs in prison, 12 of which were for rape. After being exonerated and released, he committed the same crime he was falsely accused of within a year TWICE. Bye bye sympathy.

    He was giving interviews, people now wanted to know him, talk to him. He gave speeches and men in suits were giving him standing ovations when he entered or left the room. Intelligent, educated women gave him their undivided attention when he spoke. This short man now felt taller than he ever had.

    Not only did he think he was going to be a multimillionaire, he incorrectly assumed no one would dare point the finger at him again.

    Had he not been caught, I fully believe he would have killed again. He was feeling invincible.

    There is no question who killed Teresa. He did it. The only mystery that remains for me, is what kept or prevented him from crushing the car?
    IMO, if SA is indeed the killer, the answer is easy. If SA were to crush the vehicle during the day, any other member of the Avery family or employee @ Avery Salvage would have seen it. I believe Allan/Chuck/Earl knew every car on the lot and a new one would've raised suspicion.
    If he were to crush it @ night, is there enough light back by the crusher to operate the machine ? Perhaps he was waiting for the entire Avery clan to head for Crivitz so he could do it then on the weekend of 11/5-11/6 ?

    DEFENDANT IS A LIAR + DEFENDANT'S KID GOES MISSING + DEFENDANT REPORTS KID MISSING AFTER 31 DAYS + KID IS FOUND DEAD = DEFENDANT KILLED KID

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limaes View Post
    For most of his life, SA was a loser. In trouble with the law for various crimes which mainly consisted of violence towards what he considered weaker opponents such as women and pussy cats.

    He spent 18yrs in prison, 12 of which were for rape. After being exonerated and released, he committed the same crime he was falsely accused of within a year TWICE. Bye bye sympathy.

    He was giving interviews, people now wanted to know him, talk to him. He gave speeches and men in suits were giving him standing ovations when he entered or left the room. Intelligent, educated women gave him their undivided attention when he spoke. This short man now felt taller than he ever had.

    Not only did he think he was going to be a multimillionaire, he incorrectly assumed no one would dare point the finger at him again.

    Had he not been caught, I fully believe he would have killed again. He was feeling invincible.

    There is no question who killed Teresa. He did it. The only mystery that remains for me, is what kept or prevented him from crushing the car?
    I have always thought that Avery felt like he was "owed" one. He'd spent time in prison for something he knew he hadn't done and so once out he figured he almost deserved to be able to commit a crime and not be punished for it. And, I agree that he felt invincible. He assumed that either he was smart enough not to get caught (which really just goes to show how dumb he is) or, that in case people did come snooping around, he could trot out the wrongfully convicted card and get away with it. What saddens me is how many people have actually fallen for that routine.

  13. #13
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    For me it's her charred remains found right outside of his trailer.I do not believe for one second that they were planted.Not a chance in hell.

  14. #14
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    Just a reminder that this particular thread is for those who do *not* believe there was either a conspiracy or there was any framing done in the Avery case.

    It's fine to be on the fence, many are, and there are dozens of threads already on the Avery board to explore areas of doubt in minute detail, along with every type of conspiracy imagined.

    If we can keep this one thread for those who are not on the fence, and have not seen evidence of framing/planting/conspiracy, that would be great and much appreciated.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeleine74 View Post
    Just a reminder that this particular thread is for those who do *not* believe there was either a conspiracy or there was any framing done in the Avery case.

    It's fine to be on the fence, many are, and there are dozens of threads already on the Avery board to explore areas of doubt in minute detail, along with every type of conspiracy imagined.

    If we can keep this one thread for those who are not on the fence, and have not seen evidence of framing/planting/conspiracy, that would be great and much appreciated.
    I think that should work both ways.

    DEFENDANT IS A LIAR + DEFENDANT'S KID GOES MISSING + DEFENDANT REPORTS KID MISSING AFTER 31 DAYS + KID IS FOUND DEAD = DEFENDANT KILLED KID

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