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  1. #16
    shadowraiths's Avatar
    shadowraiths is offline LISK Liaison, Verified Forensic Psychology Specialist, infoSec Architect
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sustained View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Madeleine74 View Post
    Just a reminder that this particular thread is for those who do *not* believe there was either a conspiracy or there was any framing done in the Avery case.

    It's fine to be on the fence, many are, and there are dozens of threads already on the Avery board to explore areas of doubt in minute detail, along with every type of conspiracy imagined.

    If we can keep this one thread for those who are not on the fence, and have not seen evidence of framing/planting/conspiracy, that would be great and much appreciated.
    I think that should work both ways.
    Well, the whole forum is "arguably" for people who are on the fence. Having this one thread for people who strongly believe the man is guilty, imho, seems fair.



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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowraiths View Post
    Well, the whole forum is "arguably" for people who are on the fence. Having this one thread for people who strongly believe the man is guilty, imho, seems fair.
    I have no prob staying out of this thread going forward as I am not 100% convinced he's guilty, but also would appreciate those who think SA 100% guilty not relaying that thought in every other thread. And that would be much appreciated by us that see things in a slightly different light ...

    DEFENDANT IS A LIAR + DEFENDANT'S KID GOES MISSING + DEFENDANT REPORTS KID MISSING AFTER 31 DAYS + KID IS FOUND DEAD = DEFENDANT KILLED KID

  3. #18
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    Madeleine74 is offline Of course it's my opinion; who else's would it be?
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    If you read the title of this thread, it's actually for those who don't think there was a conspiracy or planting of evidence. Belief in 100% guilt is not required at all.

  4. #19
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    I don't usually type in all caps but I can't help it: HER CHARRED REMAINS WERE FOUND IN HIS YARD. The buck stops there.


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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoM7 View Post
    I don't usually type in all caps but I can't help it: HER CHARRED REMAINS WERE FOUND IN HIS YARD. The buck stops there.


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    You hit the nail on the head. I can't see how her remains were planted by LE.

  6. #21
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    ADMIN NOTE: If you have nothing positive to contribute to this discussion, then it's not the thread for you. There are a multitude of other threads where you can post.

    What you cannot do is come into this discussion with the intent to post snarky and argumentative comments. Ain't gonna happen. And the same goes for all of the discussion threads.

    To avoid problems, learn to use the ALERT and the IGNORE features.

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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limaes View Post
    For most of his life, SA was a loser. In trouble with the law for various crimes which mainly consisted of violence towards what he considered weaker opponents such as women and pussy cats.

    He spent 18yrs in prison, 12 of which were for rape. After being exonerated and released, he committed the same crime he was falsely accused of within a year TWICE. Bye bye sympathy.

    He was giving interviews, people now wanted to know him, talk to him. He gave speeches and men in suits were giving him standing ovations when he entered or left the room. Intelligent, educated women gave him their undivided attention when he spoke. This short man now felt taller than he ever had.

    Not only did he think he was going to be a multimillionaire, he incorrectly assumed no one would dare point the finger at him again.

    Had he not been caught, I fully believe he would have killed again. He was feeling invincible.

    There is no question who killed Teresa. He did it. The only mystery that remains for me, is what kept or prevented him from crushing the car?
    For me it's as simple as MAYBE HE WAS TOTALLY GOING TO, but ran out of time. Daylight came too soon? Got paranoid about using the machine after 12-24 hrs elapsed because how could he POSSIBLY know it would take 2-3 days for her to be reported missing? For all we kow, he could have been expecting the police to show up as early as the next day? Also, please explain to me how crushing it would have helped? They STILL would have found it, no? Where was he going to hide 2 tons of crushed steel? It's still identifiable as a pancake in a pile, no?

  8. #23
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    Ooooo a thread for us prosecutorial cynics!
    Ok-- I came to Websleuths after the M of Murdr'r explosion. Infuriated and STILL 100% convinced of Steven's guilt (riding dirty since the original verdict). I needed my people. My RATIONAL ppl on here-- that would ALL most likely agree with me that the history of what really happened in this case-- THE TRUTH-- was being totally re-written. Totally erased by some ratings craving misleading film makers. And then--Hollywood movie stars that never heard his name prior to December jumping on the free Steven Avery bandwagon??!! Asking the PRESIDENT to pardon someone on STATE charges?? MAKE IT STOP!!!!!!
    I never could have anticipated how much support he'd get HERE tho as well. The difference is that ppl HERE care for more than “this week” unlike my FB friends. They are rational, intelligent thinkers. It seems that there are WELL beyond the usual amount of pseudo defense attorneys present on this forum than I recall in previous cases, but I’ll take it. This case is huge!! I’m thankful for the reality that was exposed re: our criminal justice system.
    Again, I'm still at 97%, but have to say--is it even possible for ANYONE anymore to be 100% convinced that no framing/planting was done?? Holy hot mess of concerns to consider now. Valid points have been made by the WS defense attorneys and I’m never too stubborn to be proven wrong.
    Inasmuch as I originally would have liked to just limit this website to my tried and true, trusted old schoolers and prevent a total invasion from crazy newbies and Bigfoot chasers--- I'm actually thankful for all of the input. (jk- I believe in BF lol)
    The documentary made me totally reconsider anything and everything about Brandon. From there I am inevitably led to question everything. I was SNOWED by that overly dramatic, highly misleading press conference and I'm LIVID about it.
    Just SOME of the things that now cause me to pause that I'd love clarification on (maybe not on this thread, but elsewhere):
    Some say bones found elsewhere WERE proven to be HER pelvic bones, some say NO, never proven. What gives?
    Was it her DNA found on bullet in the garage or “tissue”? Where might someone get her “tissue” if framing him? Wouldn’t be in storage somewhere I’m guessing, so am I to believe they remembered to shave off a little brain matter before they burned her and placed her in his yard?
    And, yeah- they could arguably grab a few bullet casings from the yard and toss them in the garage hoping to make them “stick” and eventually collaborate new statements they planned on beating out of Brandon next Tuesday, but tissue? Anyone?
    The 22? Kratz says it’s a bullet shot from Steven’s 22. Totally non-negotiable. Others say there weren’t even markings on the bullet? What’s the TRUTH??

    Also Steven immediately claims the guns belongs to his landlord in recorded interview. Did anyone ever verify or question the landlord? Just curious about his integrity there. He lied about having had a fire that night, what else can we immediately prove/disprove about his initial statements?
    The damage to her car. SERIOUSLY? You cannot tell me there isn’t one document or shred of history about ANYONE having any prior knowledge of existing damage to her car? Not one friend, family member, roommate was asked? During the trial or elsewhere? Can’t someone interview them NOW? As Sarah said, did she have minor accident and return to the salvage yard? POW!! Crime of opportunity is right!! Or did she possibly get run off the road by another car and were the vehicles of family members, ex-boyfriends, other potential suspects even looked at?
    NOBODY was interviewed as to the nature of TH’s relationship with the ex?? Asked about their breakup and how ugly it was or wasn’t? Perhaps it wasn’t asked or known then- they don’t seem to have even asked. Can someone ask NOW?
    Has Steven Avery taken a polygraph AT ALL at any time since he was charged? I’m guessing KZ wouldn’t rely on that completely, but if Ms. TWITTER had given him one recently and he passed- wouldn’t she be screaming that on every channel and social media outlet nationwide? Give him a friggin polygraph Kathleen baby!! I’m pulling for you to succeed and be right again.

  9. #24
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    He went through the justice system and was found guilty. Barring a new trial with new DNA, ballistics, or scientific autopsy findings or fingerprints, justice needs to be settled. Eyewitnesses and alibi statements were given at the time of trial. They are also notoriously unreliable. Now that we have plain, clear, unemotional science we should use it at every moment possible.
    "If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it."
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  10. #25
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    Madeleine74 is offline Of course it's my opinion; who else's would it be?
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    Once convicted, the burden shifts to the guilty party to prove their assertions. Trial error, judicial error, ineffective assistance of council, issues like that, i.e. legal errors being asserted by the defendant to win an overturned conviction. Avery lost that appeal in 2011, then he appealed to the WI State Supreme Court, and the high court declined to hear the case (which is at their discretion), so he's almost exhausted his appeals.

    The governor of WI could pardon Avery, but he's already said he will not do so. So Avery's only remedy at this point is to try and win an appeal on constitutional issues.


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah View Post
    For all the reasons already given, I'm somewhere around 70/30 towards SA's guilt.
    What's missing for me, and what would tilt my opinion all the way over to guilty is a cohesive narrative and timeline that ties all the evidence in together to give a credible account of what actually happened.

    The framing theory just doesn't do it for me. Too complex, the logistics of it don't make sense nor does the motivation. And it relies on too many coincidences - something had to have happened to TH on a day when she'd been to visit SA, when he just happened to be having a bonfire and conveniently decided to clean up an area of floor in his garage. Having said that, I cannot discount the possibility that some evidence may have been tampered with in order to strengthen the case against SA.

    The story put forward in BD's confession doesn't work for me either though. I'm undecided about the extent of his involvement, but there's no doubt in my mind that he was fed a particular narrative and that version of events just doesn't make sense to me. In particular I struggle with the stabbing and slashing taking place on the bed not being backed up with at least some blood evidence.

    The one thing I'd love to know is whether there's any evidence of how recent the damage to the front of TH's RAV4 was.
    There's a particular line of thought that I just can't help my mind from going down at the moment and some more information on that would help me to either dismiss it altogether or decide it's worth further thought.

    If that damage to her car was recent, I can't help wondering whether perhaps the job want as normal, but she had a minor accident on leaving the junk yard.
    Not enough to disable the car, but sufficient that she didn't want to continue her journey without it being checked out.
    If phone reception was patchy, what would be more logical than returning to a nearby place where they work on cars to seek assistance from somebody she knows?

    A routine photography job, followed by a return visit would tie up a lot of loose ends for me and present a more logical version of what may have happened.

    > It fits with the propane guy's potential sighting of the car leaving and the bus driver seeing her performing the job.

    > It would make SA's actions opportunist rather than pre-planned - which IMO fits better with his personality and IQ.
    I'll willingly accept that he may have been obsessing over Teresa or at the very least had a bit of a 'thing' for her - there's enough out there to suggest that he had a history of that sort of behaviour and I see no reason to doubt the 'towel' story.
    However, the idea that he'd planned all of this out or would be stupid enough to attack somebody on his own property when plenty of people knew that she'd be there has never sat right with me.
    An unexpected return would give him the opportunity to act on impulse and perhaps even foster the belief that she'd checked in to say she'd left the junkyard and nobody knew she had gone back.

    > The lack of blood evidence in the garage becomes less of an issue for me if he'd perhaps lured her in there under the pretext of working on her car.
    I'm convinced that a clean up occurred in the garage, but what if the clean up was to cover evidence that a car had recently been worked on in there and not to get rid of blood at all?
    (This version of events kind of leads me to him lulling her into a false sense of security while he worked on the car and then restraining her or coercing her back into the car with the killing itself occurring somewhere other than on his immediate property - perhaps elsewhere on the junkyard???)
    I'm so with you on this...I do think her lured her into the junkyard under the pretense of fixing that light.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sustained View Post
    IMO, if SA is indeed the killer, the answer is easy. If SA were to crush the vehicle during the day, any other member of the Avery family or employee @ Avery Salvage would have seen it. I believe Allan/Chuck/Earl knew every car on the lot and a new one would've raised suspicion.
    If he were to crush it @ night, is there enough light back by the crusher to operate the machine ? Perhaps he was waiting for the entire Avery clan to head for Crivitz so he could do it then on the weekend of 11/5-11/6 ?
    So with you on this--I think he was waiting until they left.

  13. #28
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    So his family already had planned the trip to Crivitz? Wasn't sure if they did or they went and stayed there because they couldn't have access while the cops searched their property.

  14. #29
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    Found another shot of the cut on his finger. The location of the cut answers two pieces of evidence imo. His DNA got on the KEY when he put it into the ignition, which also transferred his BLOOD very close to the ignition. Why do people choose to believe the blood was planted when there is a more logical explanation as to how it got there?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #30
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    Madeleine74 is offline Of course it's my opinion; who else's would it be?
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    That's a great find, Limaes. Thanks for posting it.

    When emotions and feelings are used as the north star guide, there isn't much room for anything else. The case gets seen through that specific lens and evidence which adds support to the emotional position is believed. Ironically, case followers who look at crime cases primarily from an emotional standpoint tend to accuse detectives of doing the same (i.e. "they hated him," "the cops felt embarrassed and had to get back at him," etc etc).

    That cut on SA's finger is real yet it's very existence is minimized or becomes part of a conspiracy agenda. The consideration that Avery had a finger that was bleeding from a deep cut and he inadvertently deposited his own blood in the victim's SUV is deemed preposterous because "he would have seen it and/or he would have known better."

    ETA: I can't discard the possibility that Avery actually bled in TH's SUV. It would be harder to consider this if Avery had no cut on his finger. But he does, and it's a piece of evidence to consider. That's a pretty big coinky-dink.
    Last edited by Madeleine74; 02-08-2016 at 12:22 PM.

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